I wonder!

     Could you possibly Put a chunk of the End Gable of the Building that the Columns supported, behind the sub,Thus making a port to run the Electronics through and into the sub which could be supported by Three,Yes! Three Polycarbonate clear rods?? The suspension by the method also would allow you to tone the rods and virtually make them disappear behind the sub.

Tanker-Builder

I wonder!

     Could you possibly Put a chunk of the End Gable of the Building that the Columns supported, behind the sub,Thus making a port to run the Electronics through and into the sub which could be supported by Three,Yes! Three Polycarbonate clear rods?? The suspension by the method also would allow you to tone the rods and virtually make them disappear behind the sub.

 

Hi!

That sounds like that will work TB, but I don't think I need to go that route. You will see what I mean when I get to it. I think my plan is sound. I just need to be careful not to damage any PE and/or the harpoon assembly.

Right now, my problem is epoxy. I expect JB Weld will hold the battery holder but... its a bit rubbery 24 hours later and I can make marks in it with my fingernail. It is supposed to set in 15 minutes and full cure in 30. At this point, I don't think I wanna hinge my suspended model on rubbery epoxy!

I did some research and others have experienced the same problem. Then again, others say, no, worked great. Those that say it works well claim improper mixing and or mixture may be the culprit. It's possible I erred on both fronts. I noticed that initially the dispenser didn't expel equal amounts, and maybe I didn't mix the stuff enough. I just mixed another batch to see if this time it cures hard. If it doesn't, I may need to seek out a better option.

Sigh. Always something.

Looks cool Bakster!!!! 

Maybe let the JB Weld dry overnight or even a few days? I'd had epoxy that was supposed to dry in a half-hour or so take a lot longer. Overnight should be safe in any case. 

Hi! Bakster

       Listen, I just recently repaired some damaged stained glass pieces for my lady friend. I too had that problem with JB WELD. The dispenser didn't want to dispense exactly equal amounts. Some was Too Hot" ( set up too quick) or Not Hot enough(Remained Rubbery) I have since gone back to my 3-M two part epoxy system. Two cans, Exactly what I want every time! I use a honey device and drip what amount I want in a measuring cup(Plastic) and then mix well, apply let harden and proceed with the project. I use a flexible plastic cup because, after it sets up, all I have to do to release the dried up remnants  is squeeze the cup and it falls out in my hands!

1. I did two last night. The first came out rubbery and is still easily depressed with a fingernail. Also—I had imbedded wires in the mix and as of this morning, I was able to easily pull the wires up from the epoxy. Not good at all.
2. I had attacked the second batch as if my life depended on it. Watching to make sure as exact as I can equal amounts came out and then mixing for at least two minutes; folding, wiping, folding, wiping. This batch came out much better and best of all three mixes. The epoxy hardened but with two caveats. I am still able to depress it with my fingernail but just barely. Interestingly— epoxy on the mixing stick is softer compared to the mix on the cardboard. Guessing it has to do with mixing and not mixed as thoroughly.  

I've never had a problem with two-part epoxy drying rubbery or soft. I've never used JB Weld, that I remember.

I always mix my epoxy on a sheet of wax paper. I have always used tube epoxy. I lay down a 'line' of epoxy (for lack of a better term) and then lay down another line of hardener next to, and parallel to line 1, trying to make the two 'lines' look as much the same as I can.

For small batches (for modeling), I use a flat toothpick to mix it. For larger batches (home repair project and such), a craft (popsicle) stick.

Having it on the wax paper allows you to see how well it's mixed.

I'm not sure this helpful, just thought I'd share my mixing method.

Yes!

      The 3-M is expensive. But, I don't have to buy it very often either. Plus it gets used for stuff around the house too! For stuff when I am in a hurry, I do pick up the little tubes! There are some that work better than others. My Landlady got some "Gorilla Glue brand" Works great. Same thing though, Best thing is to run it out in a line and take off whichever is longer, leaving an equal amount behind, then mix the Hades out of it!

Greg

've never had a problem with two-part epoxy drying rubbery or soft. I've never used JB Weld, that I remember.

Me neither and until now. It seems to be a problem with JB Weld. I read several internet posts of people having the issue and TB confirms it as well. 

I usually use the two bottle Bob Smith epoxy. For general use it is ok but I have had bonds fail on me when it was not under much stress. Hence, for this job, my search for something stronger.

Greg

I always mix my epoxy on a sheet of wax paper. I have always used tube epoxy. I lay down a 'line' of epoxy (for lack of a better term) and then lay down another line of hardener next to, and parallel to line 1, trying to make the two 'lines' look as much the same as I can.

If I understand you correctly-- you have both parts in separate tubes? If yes-- then that is an easy deal to mix. That then would be similar to Bob Smith only theirs is in bottles.

The issue with the JB Weld it is the syringe style that pushes both out at the same time. You don't have much control over output, of either. The less viscous side will come out faster than the other. But your method might still work. Maybe lay a bead (both coming out) and then find a section of the bead most equal to each other. Extract that section and mix. That might be a worth a try. For grins... I will try that but I suspect I won't get better results than my last attempt.

Maybe I should just use sprue-goo! :)

Tanker-Builder

Best thing is to run it out in a line and take off whichever is longer, leaving an equal amount behind, then mix the Hades out of it!

Sorry that my WIP has gone down the proverbial epoxy rabbit hole. But hey-- that is how my threads go. I expect to get past this soon. 

Continuing on epoxy. I found this video that does a good job testing the various brands. JB Weld Original and Devcon Plastic Steel appear to have tested the best. Regarding the JB version I have, it is not the original. Some of JBs other offerings did not test well in this video. Devcon Plastic Steel did well and I might find some locally with both A/B in separate tubes and not the dreaded syringes. That is my next step. I will try the Devcon. It is a slow cure but that is Ok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XObmZIbHOzY

Bakster

If I understand you correctly-- you have both parts in separate tubes? If yes-- then that is an easy deal to mix. That then would be similar to Bob Smith only theirs is in bottles.

Right. I've used the twin-tube thing with a common syringe, and it has worked ok, but I prefer to keep the two completely separate. Just personal preference.

You nailed it on trying to keep the layed down line 'diameters' about the same. As a modeler, you already know your eyes are your best measuring/alignment/general purpose Q.C. device. That works for laying down two lines of epoxy, too. :)

I think I'm explaining it badly, or you are overcomplicating it, or both. I'll make a quick video for you if you want.

Oh, and I strongly agree with TB....mix it, mix it, mix it then mix it more. Cool thing about making it on wax paper, it's easy to see the consistency and know when its properly mixed.

I'm sure you have as much or more experience than I mixing and using epoxy and just got hold of a bad batch or something.

Sorry Bakster, I've never used JB Weld. I have some Devcon, not sure which type, I've been using for years. It's in two bottles and I do as Greg does- squirt two blobs on a surface and then mix them up good with a toothpick. Then toss the whole mess in the trash when done.

"I think I'm explaining it badly, or you are overcomplicating it, or both. I'll make a quick video for you if you want."

 No need for a video, Greg. Pretty sure I get it. 

"Sorry Bakster, I've never used JB Weld."

No worries, Gam. Minor speed bump on the way to the finish line..

Your just using the epoxy on the battery holder ?

Have you thought about brass tube and solder to support the sub ?

Your just using the epoxy on the battery holder ?

No.  Not just the holder. I will use it to secure the attachment arm/tube to the column, and to the sub.

Have you thought about brass tube and solder to support the sub ?

Actually, I will be using a brass tube for the arm, but no to the solder. Not sure I understand where you are going with solder unless you are thinking of making a cradle of some sort. What are you suggesting?

Within the next day or so I will post an image showing you all where I am going with this. The plan I have should work. I just need a reliable epoxy. The model is not that heavy so its not like a need something that will support a ton. I just need an epoxy better than what I have been working with. 

Today I located and purchased Devcon and JB Weld original epoxy. The JB weld came with a/b components in separate tubes. So that is good. The Devcon is in the syringe. They didn't carry the separate tubes.

I did a test and in both cases they have set up hard. Full cure is 24 hours, 12 more to go. But thus far, they both look good and looking like they will do the job for me.

Yeah!

     Thing is, like I said before, The main thing is Mix, Mix, Mix! I even stir it before applying it to the project and if in a container, I mix till I get the last out! This is, or can be a tedious process, But the results are as Curtis-mathis used to say about their expensive Televisions Back in the fifities!! "Damn Well Worth It". The first time I heard that, I asked Dad why they were swearing on T.V.

      It's like C.A. Most folks don't know that it has very weak shear strength! If you try to pull something apart, straight off, It won't budge .But if you can get ahold of what you need to remove, twist it a little and it will usually come off. With Epoxy properly applied this won't happen. I wiggle the part minutely when setting it in place. This way any microscopic bubbles that might form from introducing the two parts will go away and you get a nice tight bond! Sometimes before it sets up I will tap it gently, hopefully to De-Bubble it any more!

Epoxies are like the red-headed step sibling of CA glues.

All kinds of varities and types and brands, and each more different than the others; the general opposite of the CA variants, which tend to be similar to each other.

Sadly, "JB Weld" has become a brand and not a specific product (much like "Gorilla" brand).

So, there's lots of having to read the fine print.

And, of course, there's Tanker's admonition, that you mix and mix and mix epoxy, like virtually all of the "working life" is spent mixing.

Curtis-mathis used to say about their expensive Televisions Back in the fifities!! "Damn Well Worth It". The first time I heard that, I asked Dad why they were swearing on T.V.

Lol.

In the early 80s I was in school for Electronic Radio and TV Repair. My instructor told us, "Curtis Mathis TVs are no better than the next. I know, because I repair them. What you are paying more for is their warranty."

And that reminds me of the movie, Tommy Boy.

Ted:
But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?

Tommy:
Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of sh... That's all it is.

I wish I could post the whole movie quote, but that might make the PC police freak out.

         It's like C.A. Most folks don't know that it has very weak shear strength! If you try to pull something apart, straight off, It won't bud

          BINGO! That is exactly why I am not using it for this. One bump of the boat and the whole thing snaps off. I WILL use a little CA just to position the boat, but epoxy will do the work.

         With Epoxy properly applied this won't happen. I wiggle the part minutely when setting it in place. This way any microscopic bubbles that might form from introducing the two parts will go away and you get a nice tight bond! Sometimes before it sets up I will tap it gently, hopefully to De-Bubble it any more!

          Good advice.

          So today, I tested the test pieces. I did two things with each epoxy test piece. One was to imbed wires and second I inserted a piece of sprue. In both cases the wires could not be pulled out. And in both cases I WAS able to twist out the sprue. I think JB weld did slightly better than Devcon but not by much. Either way, there was ample strength to it. I will do my best to make a good mechanical connection first. Doing that and adding epoxy should make it fine.

CapnMac82

Epoxies are like the red-headed step sibling of CA glues.

All kinds of varities and types and brands, and each more different than the others; the general opposite of the CA variants, which tend to be similar to each other.

Sadly, "JB Weld" has become a brand and not a specific product (much like "Gorilla" brand).

So, there's lots of having to read the fine print.

And, of course, there's Tanker's admonition, that you mix and mix and mix epoxy, like virtually all of the "working life" is spent mixing.

 

Very true, Capn.

Hi Capn Mac!

     Actually you don't have to rush either. If the package says Three minute pot life, that's the time you have after all that mixing-Ideally! I have had some kick off BEFORE I was ready and I was no where near the deadline for Pot Life! I have discovered through friends of mine that There Are ! Unknown Variables! Most folks wouldn't know about these. They are  product's bane when it is an adhesive such as what we are talking about. Epoxy and C.A. are affected by Heat, length of time in Heat ,Cold, Same thing. Intense sunlight and so on.

     A fair example. Say you have just produced six pallets full of the little packages of the Two Tube type. Now, first heat. Blister wrapping it to the cardboard backing. First event! Second event, the gross in the Boxes is subject warehouse temp and if it is placed high up, remember Ambient heat rises!. The warehouse may be in Sunny California or Hot as Hades Texas, not counting the time in a truck trailer under the sun to get to the warehouse. Have you ever been in a trailer like that on a 104 Degree day?

      Now, It has arrived at your retailers warehouse, How LONG does it sit there til it's distrubuted to the nice air conditioned store? Remember the back of the store in recieving is in most cases Not Air Conditioned. Lastly, How long has that batch your package is from sat around in the tubes.A month? A couple of Weeks? How about a year? Who Knows. Yes, even that stuff has a shelf life. I don't know what it is. But as to Bob Smith industries C.A. in a unheated, uncooled Garage it's (In the refill Bottles ) about two years! As too the Tube type Epoxy, the package I used a few weeks ago came from a supply cabinet, I have been working out of since BEFORE my second Wife passed. It was in the R.V with us. That makes that pair of tubes Seventeen years old that I know of! SOOOO.There ya go!

As promised-- here is the deal:

There is one piece that I left off the hull because I knew I would be attaching to it. 

1. I opened a hole just big enough for the brass tube to fit. The hole offers some mechanical reinforcement.

2. To reduce the risk of pinching wires I notched both ends of the tube providing a path for the wires to enter or exit.

3. I tacked the tube in place using a small amount of CA.

I chose a location where it seems the center of gravity.

The first round of epoxy is applied. I went with JB Weld Original. The second round is when I attach the piece to the bottom of the hull. I will feed the wires through the tube and attach it using more epoxy. I will load the innards with it and around that connection.

I think this will work well because the sub will basically rest on that piece. The only stress to all this is on the connection, not the sub. I will probably attach the assembly to the sub tomorrow.

End of update.

Well!

    Seems well thought out to me. Waiting for more, Of Course! Take your time at this stage.

Attached. It was a bit precarious because the bottom piece did not want to seat. I tested the  fit before paint but apparently not well enough. Paint affected the tight tolerances but I had to cut back more than just paint. The piece has elongated locators and I had to cut them back. Eventually, I got it so that with a little pressure it would seat correctly. But, it was precarious work trying not to cut wires, break something, or add scrapes and such. So, Ferg, make note to fit the bottom piece carefully and before paint.

For the install, I added more JB weld on the tube end. That will slowly cure. To attach the assembly, I used the Devcon because it is a 5 minute cure time. I needed that because of the required pressure to seat it. I did not want to attempt clamping. I also inserted shrink  tubing into the brass tube and I ran the wiring through that. I don't want the magnet wire rubbing on metal, possibly removing insulation leading to a short circuit. 

Moving forward I need to drill a hole into the column. From there, I need to remove some high spots on the bottom of the base causing it to rock. Then wash, prime, paint/weather, and then final install. 

See!

   I had Faith! Can't wait till the finishing touches. Crazy Idea. Do you have access to LEGO? Four Columns on a base, Bley Color(Blue/Grey), C.A Glues them together just fine. Rippled Very light Blue Vinyl or Satin Net Ribbon. Wrap once, Stretch, very well, Then creat a very dimly lighted top. Now, You can then view the "Machine" in it's environment!

See

Yup, got through it holding my breath and prayer. Attaching it to the column will be another nail-biter. 

Do you have access to LEGO? Four Columns on a base, Bley Color(Blue/Grey), C.A Glues them together just fine. Rippled Very light Blue Vinyl or Satin Net Ribbon. Wrap once, Stretch, very well, Then creat a very dimly lighted top. Now, You can then view the "Machine" in it's environment!

Sorry TB, I can't make sence of your vision here. Need more data.

Thanks for the support.

Okay!

       What it is is this. An aquarium big enough for the sub and columns and nice scenery. But Not an Aquarium either! The columns would be epoxied to four corners of a Black Lexan Base. Install the "Machine" and the columns. Add sand mixed with white glue and whatever you think would look good. Cover the Outside with The Blue Metallic wedding veil material with a rippled effect in it. Stretch well and make sure the seam is on the column in the back corner of either side.

       Then Make a top! Have a strip of LED's on the inside of the top. Bright enough to cast light without looking too bright. Thus, fooling the observer's eyes to thinking they are looking at the "Machine: through water!

Tanker-Builder

Okay!

       What it is is this. An aquarium big enough for the sub and columns and nice scenery. But Not an Aquarium either! The columns would be epoxied to four corners of a Black Lexan Base. Install the "Machine" and the columns. Add sand mixed with white glue and whatever you think would look good. Cover the Outside with The Blue Metallic wedding veil material with a rippled effect in it. Stretch well and make sure the seam is on the column in the back corner of either side.

       Then Make a top! Have a strip of LED's on the inside of the top. Bright enough to cast light without looking too bright. Thus, fooling the observer's eyes to thinking they are looking at the "Machine: through water!

 

That all sounds fantastic, TB. I can see where that would be really cool. Here comes the but:

1. I have invested enough time, energy, and money on this. I need to get this done and move on. My patience with the project is very thin.

2. I would not have space to display it.

3. I need to leave you something to do for when you get yours! Go get one and show me how it's done.

Thanks,TB!

She's lookin' good Bakster! Good luck!!!