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Wonder about the thinking of american plastic model companies

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  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Friday, October 30, 2009 3:14 PM
 RedCorvette wrote:
It's somewhat like comparing wooden ship modeling to plastic ship kits.  In one you fabricate parts from raw material stock where in the other you glue together pre-molded plastic parts.  I know some "purist" wooden modelers who spurn plastic kit "assemblers" as not being real modelers.

I think it all fits under the broad definition of what defines a hobby.  If someone derives pleasure, and relaxation from it, then that's good with me.

There is an old addage that goes "one does not build ship models, one builds models of parts of ships, and assembles them into a finished model"  The plastic ship model kit brings us up to speed with the "assembling" part, and we can then go forward with the building models of parts phase. There are some "purist" wooden modelers who spurn "plastic"....period! and yet, plastic can be a great scratchbuilding medium. This "old Phart" ( I prefer "Senior Executive Vice President of Bio Gas Technology" myself ) has accomplished just about all the skills, by starting with the basics, and adding new skills as I learn the old ones. I still have a long way to go before I can call myself a "Master Model Builder".......I may never reach that glorious status.....but I'm having fun doing, and learning. I'll end this with a rhetorical question. If you can honestly answer yes, congratulations! if not, think about what defines a "real modeler".

Do you actually work an eye splice in a piece of fly tying thread used for running rigging?

"Be not too hard for life is short and nothing is given to man" 

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, October 30, 2009 3:49 PM

 Mansteins revenge wrote:
I'm sure you aren't quick to jump on me because of past threads, are you?Wink [;)]

I will fully cop to that Big Smile [:D]

I did view it as a negative viewpoint... "refuse to recognize" is rather strong. "I don't think it is modelling" or "it's not the same" are one thing, but "refuse" is a lot more firm. It is the equivilent of "and nothing is going to change my mind."

One thing that an awful lot of people (myself included at times, though I try not to) do is to assume that the way they do something is the only or best way to do something. If someone's idea of a good time is to buy a model and glue plastic pieces to their  clothing and run around wearing it squawking like a bird can you really say that they're "not doing it right?"

Annoying, probably, but if they're having a good time and it's not negatively affecting anyone else, more power to them.

That's my belief, but because of that belief I tend to have a negative viewpoint of people who demean other peoples' hobbies, even though if I think about it that just might be their own hobby.

To bring this back on topic somewhat, I talked with Lindberg's CEO earlier this week regarding their 1/144 Arizona prototype model and when I mentioned that there were empty gun tubs on the real ship he said he couldn't leave them empty, his customers would want the guns there. There are many people out there who will find MORE VALUE to a model if it has more guns even if it might be less accurate because of it. Is that any less legitimate than my preference for historical accuracy? And Finally, if they can engineer it so that we can build it with or without the guns, does it even really matter?

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 30, 2009 4:06 PM
 Tracy White wrote:

 Mansteins revenge wrote:
I'm sure you aren't quick to jump on me because of past threads, are you?Wink [;)]

I will fully cop to that Big Smile [:D]

I talked with Lindberg's CEO earlier this week regarding their 1/144 Arizona prototype model and when I mentioned that there were empty gun tubs on the real ship he said he couldn't leave them empty, his customers would want the guns there. There are many people out there who will find MORE VALUE to a model if it has more guns even if it might be less accurate because of it. Is that any less legitimate than my preference for historical accuracy? And Finally, if they can engineer it so that we can build it with or without the guns, does it even really matter?

At least you own up to your bias against me... 

As far as the Arizona accuracy issue, I can buy what he is saying, as empty gun tubs would be seen by most people as "another" Lindberg flub...Having said that, I hope that there are instructions included to deliniate between the "with" and "without" options...

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: Toronto
Posted by BGuy on Friday, October 30, 2009 8:12 PM
 Tracy White wrote:
If someone's idea of a good time is to buy a model and glue plastic pieces to their  clothing and run around wearing it squawking like a bird can you really say that they're "not doing it right?"

Hey, I do that sometimes! Whistling [:-^]

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Sunny Califorina
Posted by Sherman1111 on Sunday, November 1, 2009 8:14 AM
Dont give up on the young builders yet, I had a table set up at orange con a couple and a boy about 12 years ol bought a Tamiya walker bulldog from me and he was  there with his dad, hid dad was working the show, about 5 hours later he came back with that tank compleatly built and really proud to show me. kids watch too much tv and play to many viedo games thats why this has become an older hobby, that  and the prices of kits have gone through the roof 120 dollars for trumpeters new train engine, it should sell for 1/2 that. that drives the young away also,
  • Member since
    April 2009
  • From: Draper, Utah
Posted by bushman32 on Monday, November 2, 2009 2:06 PM

 I build both wood and plastic ships, and it seems to me that one of the biggest concerns on both sides is the future of the hobbies. Both seem to be concerned of the fact that very few young people are in the hobby, rather be doing video games, etc. However, a common theme with a lot of modelers (I would say almost the majority) is that they had been out of the hobby for umpty ump years to raise a family. Never understood this much. Personally my thoughts are instead of leaving the hobby, get your children involved. Personally I see it as great way to spend quality time and increases the consumer pool for model companies. Ship models don't sell, so manufactures don't invest the effort into them. Model with your children, more models leave the shelves, companies make money, they might start looking at ships, and their customers, in a new light. Well, some of my thoughts.

  Ron W.

Ron Wilkinson

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by Felix C. on Monday, November 2, 2009 2:21 PM
 Batosi420 wrote:

 Here's the truth.

Most americans think plastic models are no more than childs toys.  There, I said it. 

Think about it. When was the last time you told another adult (NOT a builder) you made plastic models??  

So true. I recall visiting M-E when they had a retail segment and purchasing a kit and the absolutely beautiful yourng lady behind the counter went from having interest, (We were having a mutually interesting conversation and I suppose she thought I was there with a young-un), to condescension. I never tell anyone of my shipbuilding hobby. 1:1 Highperformance cars-yes, endurance running-yes, film fanatic-yes. Modelships-NEVER.

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: Toronto
Posted by BGuy on Monday, November 2, 2009 10:16 PM

I feel like saying "and people wonder why the hobby's dying", but nobody seems to worry about it anymore.  When the only participants are increasingly elderly people derrogated for 'playing' with 'toys' there's little appeal. 

Also, I think bushman32 said something that I interpreted as "mellow out--young people apparantly come back to the hobby as older adults after enjoying the hobby as kids."  Unfortunately, I think the demographic trend is that baby-boomers specifically enjoyed models as kids *because they were popular and widely available when they were kids*; now at least partly out of nostalgia they've returned.  Kids today have little or no typical contact with models, so it's unlikely they'll return as adults. 

I feel like, at 33, I'm a) too young to be good at this hobby and b) that I was probably the last kid in the world to have reasonable choice of model kits and supplies at regular stores.  I can even remember a whole aisle reserved at most discount stores just for models; Toys R Us had what my childhood memories tell me was a HUGE selection of awesome kits.  I praise hobby companies for quixotically reaching out to younger demographics but....it's not going to work.  If anything is to save modeling from becoming a mere anthropological curiosity, it won't be a simple 'vertical' replication of the hobby from adults to kids.  Fresh new marketing ideas are required if modeling firms want to remain profitable 30 years from now.  I see a lot of excellent product out there, but I don't see a lot of long-term industry survival.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, November 3, 2009 12:16 AM

Hey BGuy... 37  myself and remember the Toys-R-Us aisle quite fondly myself.

It's not quite as bad as you portray it, at least in Seattle. While I recognize Seattle ain't the whole world, I know other places are doing something similar. We work with young kids, knowing we'll probably  lose them for a bit to video games and girls, but also knowing that after college when they settle down they'll need a hobby. If we plant a seed, they may return. We've seen more than a couple, and I'm happy to report I'm no longer the youngest in our club of about 100 builders. We have quite a few members in their 20s.

I do agree that better marketing would help.. perhaps crossovers with popular games & movies.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: Toronto
Posted by BGuy on Tuesday, November 3, 2009 2:27 AM
 Tracy White wrote:

Hey BGuy... 37  myself and remember the Toys-R-Us aisle quite fondly myself.

It's not quite as bad as you portray it, at least in Seattle. While I recognize Seattle ain't the whole world, I know other places are doing something similar. We work with young kids, knowing we'll probably  lose them for a bit to video games and girls, but also knowing that after college when they settle down they'll need a hobby. If we plant a seed, they may return. We've seen more than a couple, and I'm happy to report I'm no longer the youngest in our club of about 100 builders. We have quite a few members in their 20s.

I do agree that better marketing would help.. perhaps crossovers with popular games & movies.

Believe me, I'm glad that there's a real effort out there to promote the hobby (keep it up!), but I'm not sure isolated pockets of seed-planting will result in anything like the watershed of adult 'born again' modelers we saw in the baby-boom generation.  If this demographic teaches us anything, it's that a whole generation growing up with models will only lead to a ferverent but small minority of people being modellers as adults.  With nearly 100% of male kids back then producing--what?--less than 1% of itself as hobbists as adults, what do you suppose will happen when less than 5% of kids today have exposure to models?  To produce as vibrant following for generations to come, we need to be doing a LOT better, and right now we're losing.  Fatally, I fear.  

I'd love to see a larger range of subjects in models--pop culture crossovers, sports subjects, or anything really that would vary the field.  Not just for expanding to younger/newer demographics, but for a breath of fresh air.  Whenever I ask or suggest about this though I seem to meet with this huge, mysterious wall that just proclaims "what the market REALLY wants is yet *another* aftermarket set for some obscure panzer sub-sub-type".  To me, it seems, the market has become incredibly self-prophesying.  It seems to have no faith outside the narrow confines of its established genres and entrenched customer bases.  This isn't to blame the firms involved, per se--I've seen many attempts to expand subjects.  Unfortunately they never seem to take off.  Several weeks ago for example my LHS had a lindbergh San Fran Trolley Car in the auto section--I didn't go for it myself but was really glad to see variety outside the usual muscle car selection.  The other day though I caught eye of it, relegated, unwanted, to the bargain bin.  Such is commonly the fate of modeling firms who take risks. 

I'm sure this must have been discussed nearly to death when I wasn't looking, but what (apparantly unsuccessful) attempts have been made to involve other demographics (besides kids) in the hobby?  Women for example?  Or, indeed, anybody but the usual assortment of older men that make up 99% of the hobby?

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 3, 2009 3:20 AM

I can't dispute any of the gloom-and-doom predictions above.  There's no arguing about the fundamental facts that have been pointed out already in this thread:  the hobby has almost completely lost its popularity among kids, the prices are going up to the point where even the adult enthusiasts have trouble affording them, and the public outside that small community of enthusiasts thinks the hobby is ridiculous (if said public knows the hobby exists at all).  In a desperate effort to find something positive to say about the whole thing, though, I can offer the following.

I've read several books about the subject, and (though the thought depresses me in the extreme) I've witnessed almost the entire history of plastic modeling myself.  (I built my first one, a Revell DC-7, in 1956 at age 5.) 

The hobby of scale plastic modeling was, to all intents and purposes, born in the early 1950s.  (There were a few plastic kits, and a few built-up plastic models, before then, but the kit craze really started in about 1953 or 1954.)  It took a few years to build up steam, but by 1957 or 1958 scale plastic modeling had become the number one hobby of American boys.  (So says Dr. Thomas Graham, in his book on the history of Revell - and he offers plenty of evidence to back up the claim.)  The hobby/industry retained that stature through the 1960s, with the number of kits getting bigger, and their quality getting better (generally speaking), every year.

Then came what Dr. Graham calls "the troubled seventies."  He offers several explanations for why the popularity of the hobby tapered off during that decade:  the rising price of oil, general economic malaise, the decline of patriotism and respect for the military during the Vietnam War, the appearance of the first computer games, etc., etc.  (Dr. Graham politely refrains from mentioning another factor that, to my recollection, was also important:  a series of spectacularly bad marketing decisions by a new generation of people who were now running the model companies.)  Several manufacturers (most famously Renwall and Aurora) went under.  Monogram was taken over by Mattel, and for several years didn't produce any serious scale models.  The British manufacturers were having similar problems.  (Frog gave up, leaving the British field almost entirely to Airfix - which was starting to have serious problems of its own.)  Apart from the newcomers on the other side of the Pacific, it looked like scale plastic modeling was sliding down a slippery slope toward total extinction.  By the late seventies, the trade journals and the IPMS were asserting that the day of the scale plastic kit was just about over.

Fast-forward thirty-five years and what do we see?  The hobby of scale modeling is in the midst of what I firmly believe will come to be regarded in future decades as a "golden age."  The number of kits in every field (except the one I happen to like best:  sailing ships) is expanding significantly every year.  The resin ship kit field has blossomed in the past few years; the number of resin warships on the market is now well over a thousand.  The current range of aftermarket parts, in metal and resin, would have been unbelievable as recent as fifteen years ago.  (Most of us can remember when knowledgeable authors and modelers accepted that reproducing a radar screen on 1/700 scale was simply impossible.) 

There are even positive signs in the sailing ship world, if one knows where to look for them.  Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and Calder/Jotika are producing fine, new, scale sailing ship kits - though they take their time.  Some, at least, of the HECEPOB companies seem to be waking up and discovering what a scale ship model looks like.  The number of excellent books on the subject of ship modeling has never been higher. 

As a Certified Curmudgeon I'm convinced that the hobby as we know it is indeed going to undergo some big changes - not all of them for the better - during the next decade or so.  I share the often-expressed concern over the lack of young people getting into it.  (I'm a member of a fine model club that has about thirty regular members.  I, at age 59, am one of the half-dozen youngest.)  I have no doubt that, thirty years from now, the hobby/industry will look significantly different than it does now.  But my own observations of what's happened to it within my own lifetime lead me to believe that, one way or another, it will still be around.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Derry, New Hampshire, USA
Posted by rcboater on Thursday, November 12, 2009 6:02 AM

I'd agree with pretty much everything jtilley said-- we are in a "golden age".

I also agree that things will be a lot different in 30 years-- which is why I think it is a bad idea to hold "collections" of old plastic model kits.  I've really started to make an effort to reduce the stash-- due to a number of factors:

-  demand for "collector" kits will be steady in the short term, but will erode over the long run, as the people who are nostalgic for them die off.

- as a 50 year old, it is likely that I'll be downsizing to smaller quarters in the next decade

- every year, it seems that more of the "someday I'll build that" kits are being superceded by newer, better versions of the same subject

-  I already have too many kits-- more kits than I'm likely to build in my remaining modeling years.

- It is generally a mistake to buy kits because "I'd better get it now while I can-- it will be OOP when I want to build it someday."   I've discovered that the reality is that it will either be re-released, or  replaced by somethigng equal or better.  And there's always eBay if I gotta have something.  Financially, it makes more sense if, 10 years from now, I overpay for a kit on eBay,  as opposed to buying ten kits now and selling  9 of them at a loss over the next 10 years.

Webmaster, Marine Modelers Club of New England

www.marinemodelers.org

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:17 AM
...people have been predicting the "end" of the hobby because of demographics for almost thirty years...it may happen, but "the sky is falling" sure has been sounded for awhile...
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Philippines
Posted by constructor on Monday, November 16, 2009 3:31 PM
I agree  with you completely. When I was much younger happiness is building  a Revell or a Monogram kit. Much,much later Tamiya came about with models which were a joke compaired to US made kits. But later on, the japanese kits improved by leaps and bounds and later on the chinese came leaving the US manufacturers eating dust. Why? I think it is the economy of manufacturing. Labor in Asia is very much cheaper than in the US. More craftsmen are available in Japan and China and then the age of computer technology came and the rest is history continuing to improve in quality and also becoming more expensive for modellers who in the first place were looking and asking for more accuracy. 
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:35 PM
I think it was more that most of the American companies were more interested in being cash cows than investing in their future.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    September 2015
  • From: The Redwood Empire
Posted by Aaronw on Friday, November 27, 2009 3:23 PM

 Tracy White wrote:
I think it was more that most of the American companies were more interested in being cash cows than investing in their future.

 

I think that is a big factor, many companies, not just model companies have developed a desire for maximum profits, not just staying in the black. S&S a company that built fire apparatus recently closed its doors, not because it was losing money, simply that it wasn't profitable enough for the parent company. It seems clear many of the companies have a similar attitude in kit selection, a Beech King Air may sell kits, but another FW190 will sell more. 

 

I'm hoping that with new technology developing the cost to tool will come down and we may see more small market model companies able to produce decent kits of less common subjects.

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:08 PM

I do have to agree with TRACY.The main thing I want to add here is back in the late 70s and early 80s before it happened there were rumors of a REVELLOGRAM or such if the companies merged.The only thing that irks me isREVELLof GERMANY did a 50 years series and I didn,t hear of it until they were hard to find.There were many that I grew up with. oh, well. The fact remains that MORE cars are re-released each year than ships!,It,s the same way for planes.Good gosh, there must be at least 12 versions of a FOCK WOLFE fighter now!NEXT----tankerbuilder

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