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finally a new plastic tall ship model!!!

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  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: UK
Posted by Billyboy on Friday, March 26, 2010 7:55 PM

oh, and re: the 'quarterdeck' grating tht caused some controversy in this thread- such  things were quite common on RN frigates of the era- here' an example.

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/displayRepro.cfm?reproID=F8901-002&picture=2#content

 

I suppose they made working a flushdeck ship easier by allowing greater visibility for officers... or it's just one of those daft hierarchical things the conservative sailing navies clung on to in the nineteenth century?

  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: UK
Posted by Billyboy on Friday, March 26, 2010 7:49 PM

Well, it looks as though Revell has bought these moulds too.

http://www.revell.de/de/produkte/modellbau/modellbau/produkte/?id=210&KGKANR=0&KGKOGP=10&KGSCHL=3&L=0&page=6&sort=1&nc=1&searchactive=&q=&SWO=&ARMAS4=&PHPSESSID=317185d37df75cb5d6bb96a4032c6fbd&KZSLPG=&offset=43&cmd=show&ARARTN=05413&sp=1

They are at least selling the kit  with her true identity as a portugese frigate. I'm happy with how my Zvezda model is coming along; The only really annoying components so far are the deck gratings which are cast in relief: so instead of just running  black wash over them to sort them, I have had to replace them with etched mesh.

I am still tossing up what to arm her quarterdeck/ spar deck with. The kit's long guns seem a little out of date, and lookingt those above mentioned photos of the restored vessel- a lot of her gun deck seems to have been given over to quite highly decorated cabins. This, coupled with her colonial 'showing the flag' role means I suspect the kit is very much over-gunned, by simply placing a long gun behind every open gunport. I have therefore omitted a few from her gun deck and might convert all of those I chose to keep on her spardeck to carronades. Any thoughts?

all in all, it's a good kit, and a worthy subject matter. Next up, a kit of HMS Trincomalee??.. yeah right.....

Will

jcf
  • Member since
    September 2009
Posted by jcf on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 12:51 AM

Do believe it's her blog and those are self-portraits.

As to the stern gratings, perhaps they were added while the vessel did duty as a stores ship? It may that they were not there when she was an active fighting ship.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, December 8, 2009 6:32 PM

Those museum photos are great! That's what the world needs- more 3 euro ships tours. As for the grating detail, they seem to be spaced a ways above the deck which appears to be continuous under them. And there is a single line railing through big staples that runs around the bulwarks essentially where the grating is. And the gratings are flush with the bottom of the two rear gun ports, which have nets across them. My WAG is that it's an adhoc little quarterdeck, and that one wouldn't be incorrect to eliminate them and install two stern chasers there if desired.

Great pics. The guy's wife is now immortalized on FSM.

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Tuesday, December 8, 2009 5:38 PM

I must say that after seeing those upclose hull photos i'm feeling less inclined to play the $45 for this kit. I think i'll pass on this one for the time being.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 7, 2009 11:42 AM
 Billyboy wrote:

Jtilley- I can't claim to be an expert on Portugese shipbuilding either, which is why I was very suprised to see on this tourist's set of photos taken on the Dom Fernando ii e Gloria an extensive area of grating at the rear of the deck. It Doesn't couldn't be associated with the wheel, and it would also make fitting carronades in the stern ports quite tricky- a short captain maybe?

http://caminhosdaultimanauportuguesa.blogspot.com/

Will

Fascinating pictures.  I couldn't find one that clearly shows the grating in question (at least on the tiny screen of my laptop), but Billyboy is in effect confirming that it's there.  This is just one more demonstration of how many holes there are in the English-speaking maritime technology world when it comes to warships of non-English-speaking nations.  Whenever I bump into a set of plans for a French (or Scandinavian, or Spanish, or Germanic, or, now, Portuguese) sailing ship I learn something that surprises me.

This also seems to confirm that Kapudan (as could have been assumed) was right about the "new" Zvezda kit's origins.  And that it has nothing to do with a French ship named Acheron.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: UK
Posted by Billyboy on Monday, December 7, 2009 9:38 AM

Jtilley- I can't claim to be an expert on Portugese shipbuilding either, which is why I was very suprised to see on this tourist's set of photos taken on the Dom Fernando ii e Gloria an extensive area of grating at the rear of the deck. It Doesn't couldn't be associated with the wheel, and it would also make fitting carronades in the stern ports quite tricky- a short captain maybe?

http://caminhosdaultimanauportuguesa.blogspot.com/

Will

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 7, 2009 2:43 AM
 warshipguy wrote:

Please take this as a "tongue-in-cheek" comment . . . what's a "tall ship"?

Bill Morrison

Bill has brought up one of my pet bugaboos.

So far as I know, the expression "tall ship" originated with John Masefield in his great poem "Sea Fever":  "I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and the sky/And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by."  Masefield was a great writer and an expert on nautical terminology; his use of the expression is, to my ear, masterful in the somewhat romanticized context of the poem.  (Incidentally, not all of his nautical poetry is romanticized like this one.  Some of it, in fact, is pretty brutal in its realism.)

I think the modern popularity of the phrase dates from shortly before 1976, when a big "fleet" of sail training ships sailed from the West Indies to Newport, Rhode Island in conjunction with the U.S. Bicentennial celebration.  (I'm sure Bill remembers the occasion.)  I was nursing a sunburned forehead on a hill overlooking the harbor approaches when the first ships came out of the morning fog; I'll never forget the sight.  Similarly, I'll never forget the crush of tourist traffic that almost paralyzed that part of the country, and practically exhausted my temper, over the next several days.  (I thought about going to New York to see the "Parade of the Tall Ships" on the Fourth of July, but I gave up.) 

Ever since then, advertisers and promoters have been using the term to refer to...well, I suspect they have no idea what.  Masefield would be appalled. 

I can remember hearing little kids on the pier at Newport that day in 1976 asking, "Daddy, is that a tall ship?" and the fathers inventing profound answers, as though the term actually meant something.  In fact it doesn't mean anything.  It won't be found in any serious nautical dictionary, or in the writings of any serious maritime historian or commentator; I really wish it would vanish from the English-language vocabulary.  

On the other hand, it's become so common in journalistic and advertising circles that I can't be seriously critical of anybody who uses it.  I guess we might as well get used to it - but I don't have to like it.

My other big pet peeve phrase:  "museum quality model."  That one is, in the first place, something of an oxymoron:  museums acquire models for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with "quality" as a model builder would define it.  (The famous Isaac Hull model of the U.S.S. Constitution is, by modern modelers' standards, of mediocre quality at best.  But it's one of the most important and valuable ship models in the world - and unquestionably belongs in a museum.)  In the second place, plenty of less-than-high-quality models have made their way into museums.  Sometimes that's because people donated them and the museum couldn't say no; on other occasions, unfortunately, the people in charge of the museums just can't distinguish between a good model and a mediocre one.  (I'm afraid serious ship modelers would be shocked by how few maritime museum employees actually know much about ships or ship models.) 

Too long as usual.  Down with museum-quality models of tall ships!  (And I do hope everybody reading this can recognize a tongue that's firmly planted in a cheek.)

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 6, 2009 11:57 PM

I guess I can't claim to have seen every single Constitution, but I've seen quite a few of them.  This one doesn't look familiar to me.  The detailing of the stern windows is different from any kit I've ever bumped into - as is the "basket-like" structure of the bow.  The overall shape of the maindeck is also different from that of the Constitution (the maximum breadth appears to be too far forward).  And the layout of the deck furniture is different from any kit  - or real ship - I've ever seen.  Take a look at that strange set of gratings at the extreme stern.  I'm no expert on French (or Portuguese) naval architecture, but it sure seems unlikely that anybody would build a ship with the aftermost few feet of its maindeck perforated like that.

I have no reason to refute Kapudan's earlier statement that it's a reissue of a Russian kit representing a Portuguese warship.  In any case, though it wouldn't be fair to evaluate a kit exclusively on the basis of photos like these, I have to say this isn't one I'm going to rush out and buy.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:45 PM

Stefan

   Thanks for the link to the pictures of the parts. I can tell that its an old mold of a Constitution kit,with some re-tooling on some of the parts. Looks like the stern has been redone and also the side gallery windows. Possibly the deck had some re-do. I just can't place the old manufactor yet. Aurora,Lindberg, or maybe the 22"  Revell simplified kit from the 60's?. Zvezda new stuff (Greek Trieme,Roman Trieme,Carthagenian, Roman Emporer,and The Cog) have a lot better detail in there kits.The canons look like molds from the 60's.The kit has a lot of injection marks which there newer kits don't have. I don't have any of the three kits I mentioned above anymore to compare to see who was the first manufactor.

Rod

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Slovakia
Posted by SKorecko on Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:53 AM

Close-up photos of Acheron’s parts can be found at

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/myarticles/article_storyid_2150.html

Stefan.

  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by stevebagley on Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:20 AM
Yes , I am very definitely english . I can remember from my naval service seeing Trincomalee swinging round a buoy in Portsmouth harbour , with , I think , only the stump of a main mast left. She was there for many years under the name"Foudroyant" acting as a traing ship for young people .Fortunately being built of best Indian Teak she has lasted much better than many of her contemporaries.Her current preservation is the best thing that could have happened to her . I shall have have to investigate the conversion idea , it's a good  one . Incidentally , some years ago in the IPMS UK nationals , Best in Show was a cut away model of a British frigate of the Napoleonic era in 1/72nd scale using the hull of the Revell 1/96th scale " Constitution " as a base .( gasps of outrage from your side of the Atlantic .) Seriously , this was a very high quality model which is now on display in the Royal Naval Museum in Portsmouth . 
  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Jerome, Idaho, U.S.A.
Posted by crackers on Sunday, December 6, 2009 2:30 AM

  Here is another model of a Blackwall frigate fully rigged.

                      Montani semper liberi !   Happy modeling to all and every one you.

                                                        Crackers   Angel [angel]

Anthony V. Santos

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Jerome, Idaho, U.S.A.
Posted by crackers on Sunday, December 6, 2009 1:23 AM

     Billyboy..If you are still interested in kit bashing the ACHERON kit into a Blackwall frigate and happen be be located near the National Maritime Museum in London, you might get an eyefull of the model, SERINGAPATAM. This ship, built in 1837 and named after a victory by British troops over Tipu Sultan, ruler of Mysore in 1798, giving control of the SW Indian state to the East India Company.

      Blackwall frigate is a generic name of a series of trading ships built between 1837 to 1869 at Blackwall on the River Thames, for the Indian trade, following the expiration of the East India Company's charter in 1833. SERINGAPATAM was the first ship of this series. They were "frigate built" because they had a finer run and faster than the older East Indianman. Blackwall frigates dominated the trade until the opening of the Suez Canal and eclipsed by the clipper ship.

                  Montani semper liberi !     Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                                            Crackers      Angel [angel]

 

 

 

Anthony V. Santos

  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: UK
Posted by Billyboy on Saturday, December 5, 2009 12:47 PM

re: HMS Trincomalee (Leda class) frigates. I originally bought my 'Acheron' with the intention of building the HMS Lively. There would have been a lot of work to make anything approaching a Naopoleonic era 18pdr from the kit. I decided to convert mine to a mid-nineteenth century Royal Naval frigate instead because those designed by William Symonds in the 1830s onwards were usually rather beamy- just like the Dom Ferdinando

I like the idea of an east Indiaman or post-1837 Blackwall Frigate. The bows of these vessels tended to be a wee bit more bluff, but I would wager a reasonable impression of a Blackwall firgate could be built from this model.The main challenge would be adding a long quarter deck.

 

Will

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 5, 2009 12:31 PM

Now that's funny! I guess it's okay to have a non-historic ship described as a non-existing ship type! Make a Toast [#toast]

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Saturday, December 5, 2009 11:59 AM
I dunno Bill, is a short ship one with the T'Gallants struck down. Wink [;)]
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 5, 2009 10:56 AM

Please take this as a "tongue-in-cheek" comment . . . what's a "tall ship"?

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Jerome, Idaho, U.S.A.
Posted by crackers on Saturday, December 5, 2009 12:47 AM

   I assume stevebagley is an English national, as he posted that he bought a kit of the French frigate ACHERON for 20 pounds. Perhaps he could kit bash his ACHERON kit into the 38 gun TRINCOMALEE, a LEDA class frigate now restored and preserved as the HMS TRINCOMALEE Trust, at Hartlepool, England.

   Named after the Sri Lankan port, Trincomalee, and built of teak wood, the frigate was launched in 1817 at Bombay (now Mombai), India by East Indian shipwrights for the East India Company. In 1897 she was to be condemned to be broken up, but saved as a training ship at Falmouth. In 1991 TRINCOMALEE was again restored and is now on permanent display.

  Information can be obtained by the site: www.hms-trincomalee.co.uk

  e-mail:  office@hms-trincomalee.co.uk

                    Montani semper liberi !    Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                                Crackers        Angel [angel]

 

 

Anthony V. Santos

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Friday, December 4, 2009 1:47 PM

 uglygoat wrote:
thanks.  i'll be honing my skills in on cheaper kits...edit:  what are some kits that would help me ease from primarily 700 scale pacific war fleet builds to plastic sailing ship models?  

Something with a simple rig. It's not about modeling skill, you do 1/700! It's about knowledge of, and developing skill in rigging that will, most likely be your biggest struggle. The big problem is that most plastic models are of larger more complex sailing ships. The simpler rigs, like topsail schooners, or brigs/brigantines, are more often found as wood kits. 

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by stevebagley on Friday, December 4, 2009 12:34 PM
It may take some months. The Airfix "Prince" and "Revenge" and the Imai"Golden Hind" are ahead in the queue.I buy faster than I build !! Referring to the Kapudan's previous post , my info is that the ship was more of an armed transport than a frigate . It's lines remind me of the old British 50 gun ships which were obsolete by the end of the 18th century.
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Friday, December 4, 2009 10:25 AM

 stevebagley wrote:
I bought the kit today , cost me £20 . I was about to order it , and my LHS got one in on spec saving me the trouble. Looks very nicely moulded , no flash , good surface detail . It has 2 complete decks , upper deck and main gun deck . Cannons come in one piece , barrel , carriage and trucks, but neatly done . Good stout box to protect the contents . Rig includes a gaff rigged spanker on the fore and main masts as well as the mizzen , which would be an anachronism for a Napoleonic war vessel ( if my terminology is incorrect , the ships I served on had steam or gas turbines , so please give the right description !!) Ratlines and shrouds are finely  injection moulded , not plastic string , so may be usable .I did know when buying it the description was " fictional" . Generally this looks a nice little model ,and I am pleased with it , allowing for not having it long enough to try the fit of too many parts . Will have to get a better picture of the stern so I can reproduce the Portuguese coat of arms . 

is there a possibility of a build log for this kit?

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: istanbul/Turkey
Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Friday, December 4, 2009 10:03 AM
I remember that (from somewhere I have read) Dom Fernando was built rather to function as "armed transport" for troops destined to african and indian possessions of Portuguese Empire, with a larger, more capacious hold than ordinary naval frigates. If this information is correct, this kit may be converted into an early 19th Century east indiaman. Am I wrong ?
Don't surrender the ship !
  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by stevebagley on Friday, December 4, 2009 7:05 AM
I bought the kit today , cost me £20 . I was about to order it , and my LHS got one in on spec saving me the trouble. Looks very nicely moulded , no flash , good surface detail . It has 2 complete decks , upper deck and main gun deck . Cannons come in one piece , barrel , carriage and trucks, but neatly done . Good stout box to protect the contents . Rig includes a gaff rigged spanker on the fore and main masts as well as the mizzen , which would be an anachronism for a Napoleonic war vessel ( if my terminology is incorrect , the ships I served on had steam or gas turbines , so please give the right description !!) Ratlines and shrouds are finely  injection moulded , not plastic string , so may be usable .I did know when buying it the description was " fictional" . Generally this looks a nice little model ,and I am pleased with it , allowing for not having it long enough to try the fit of too many parts . Will have to get a better picture of the stern so I can reproduce the Portuguese coat of arms . 
  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: UK
Posted by Billyboy on Friday, December 4, 2009 5:38 AM

I subscribe to the suggestion of 'as big a scale as possible.' for a first sailing ship rig. On the otherhand something manageable in size is important too. I know it is not very accurate model, but something like Airfix HMS Bounty would be a good start as it is quite simple to rig. I haven't built them, but the Heller Nina/ Pinta look quite simple to rig, and so is the Revell Hansa Cog boat. All are 1/87-1/75 scale.

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: cleveland
Posted by uglygoat on Thursday, December 3, 2009 5:13 PM

thanks.  i'll be honing my skills in on cheaper kits...

 

edit:  what are some kits that would help me ease from primarily 700 scale pacific war fleet builds to plastic sailing ship models?  

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Thursday, December 3, 2009 4:34 PM
around $45
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: cleveland
Posted by uglygoat on Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:41 PM

it wasn't bad as far as russel crowe movies go imo.  ;)

what's the price point on this kit?  i've only done 700 scale wwII vessels, but am looking to expand my skill set to sailing ships.  i've stock piled the revell viking ship, and am looking for a few more to add.  

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: Sarasota, FL
Posted by RedCorvette on Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:30 PM
 crackers wrote:

  I don't think the French frigate ACHERON is really an historical vessel. Rather, it is from the novel "Master and Command", from the Aubrey-Maturin series by the marine novelist, Patrick O'Brian. The novel story was later made into a film directed by Peter Weir and starring Russel Crow as Jack Aubrey, captain of the British frigate, SURPRISE. The film was released in 2003.

  The film's story takes place in 1805, when SURPRISE engages the French privateer, ACHERON and is damaged by the privateer. After repairs, Captain Aubrey learns that ACHERON is in the Eastern Pacific harassing the British whaling fleet. Sailing around Cape Horn, the SURPRISE arrives at the Galapagos Islands, and through a surprise chance of fate, learns that ACHERON is anchored on the opposite side of the island. Using deception, Captain Aubrey disguises the SURPRISE as a British whaler, sneaks up to ACHERON and in a furious battle defeats ACHERON, taking the captured vessel to Valparaiso, Chile.

   The novelist Patrick O"Brian wrote of the engagement of the SURPRISE vs ACHERON in the Pacific, using the historical encounter of the 32 gun frigate, U.S.S. ESSEX and her defeat by the British frigate, H.M.S. PHOEBE and sloop-of-war, H.M.S. CHERUB in a bloody battle outside of Valpariso harbor on March 27, 1814. The U.S.S. ESSEX had decimated the British whaling fleet in the Pacific. PHOEBE and CHERUB were ordered to halt this menace.

    Acheron is the name of a river in N.W. Greece that flows into the Ionian Sea. In ancient Greek methology, Acheron is one of the five rivers that flows through the realm of Hades.

                  Montani semper liberi !  Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                                 Crackers       Angel [angel]

                                             

 

 

The Acheron in the film was a CG creation based on the USS Constitution.  If someone wanted to do a "movie version" of the Acheron, a Revell Constitution would be the best starting point.

Mark  

FSM Charter Subscriber

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