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Heller 1/100 Victory

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  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, August 13, 2010 1:44 PM

Rich,

I sent an email to answer your question. For anyone wanting to see the painting in question, just do an internet search under the paintings title or by the artists' name.  It is an interesting painting.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Heart of the Ozarks, Mansfield, MO (AKA, the 3rd world)
Posted by Rich on Friday, August 13, 2010 12:57 PM

Don't know the answer to your question Bill, but I thought I'd go off topic for just a moment to remark that you're my dad's namesake, and at the age of 19 he embarked on a merchant marine squarerigger for an around the world training cruise. Your middle name wouldn't be Abraham (his) by any chance?

OK, sorry. Let's all get back to work! 

Rich

Nautical Society of Oregon Model Shipwrights

Portland Model Power Boat Association

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, August 13, 2010 12:40 PM

Here is an interesting question . . . Did Victory ever carry a lateen on her mizzen instead of a spanker?  I am attempting to model her at an earlier stage in her career by using the painting Victory Leaving the Channel in 1793 by Monamy Swaine. The painting seems to illustrate a lateen on her mizzen. I would sincerely be interested in any of your thoughts.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:39 AM

Rich, see my "conversation"

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Heart of the Ozarks, Mansfield, MO (AKA, the 3rd world)
Posted by Rich on Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:18 AM

bondoman

Sure, I'd be interested. Although do you think they really flickered? I do plan to put in a lantern system as part of the gun deck build.

 

They had to flicker Bill. Lantern mantles such as you find on modern camp lanterns didn;t appear until the 1880s, Before that all lanterns including whale oil lamps had an open flame. With my tutorial you can make those lights for about $4 each with a PIC circuit and LEDs (good for 100,000 hours or more), and they really finish the model. Let me know how to get a copy to you. It will be in PDF format.

Rich

Nautical Society of Oregon Model Shipwrights

Portland Model Power Boat Association

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:06 AM

Felix C.

The other sailing ships I have are 1/150. Is there a plastic Victory in 1/150? Sorry, no trying to threadjack.

I am certainly not aware of one. There apparently was an infamous metal and plastic kit at abt. 1/150 made for a brief time about thirty years ago by Imai. By all (only a few) accounts a piece of junk not worth investing time in.

Imai is the vendor of my Victory, and there are two very significant features that make the kit worth looking for. The first is a box of five very large (long) well made cordage spools in five sizes. The second is a truly superior set of instructions, albeit in Japanese, but well illustrated and much more useful that the parrot cage lining provided by Heller.Pirate

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:42 AM

Sure, I'd be interested. Although do you think they really flickered? I do plan to put in a lantern system as part of the gun deck build.

 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Heart of the Ozarks, Mansfield, MO (AKA, the 3rd world)
Posted by Rich on Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:24 AM

Bill, you are working my alltime favorite plastic kit. I'll follow this log from now on. I have a suggestion if you're not too far along; fit her out with simulated flickering oil lamterns. I have written a tutorial how to do it. If you're interested I'll give you a copy.

Rich

Nautical Society of Oregon Model Shipwrights

Portland Model Power Boat Association

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by Felix C. on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:36 AM

The other sailing ships I have are 1/150. Is there a plastic Victory in 1/150? Sorry, no trying to threadjack.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:21 AM

Ordered my copper bottom tape, cordage and eyebolts today!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:44 AM

I have finished the 32 and 24 pounder gun trucks. It took two nights, but a little organization went a long way.60 assemblies, 5 parts each. Actually I still have to go back and add the beds to each, but that would have slowed me down too much if included in the original assembly.

I made a little jig to align the axles, which also served as a thirty second drying rack.

Today I'm starting on the 40 or so 12 pounders. At least the carronades are one piece.

And I need to prime the 32/24's. No sense trying to spray yellow directly over black.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, July 15, 2010 1:52 AM

Well as usual these conversations lead to a new appreciation of what's what. Only a number of upper deck gun ports had lids. And only a smaller number of quarter deck ports had ditto.

Finished the barrels tonite. I'm building jigs in which to construct the trucks, tomorrow over coffee. I may take the day off.

A point. The lower deck has a raised curb cast in to help position the guns. But, I have thickened the bulwarks on the gun decks and this curb will probably end up right under the rear wheels of the guns. Without any further thought, I will be shaving it off and repainting the deck. Better now than later.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:59 PM

 

It is a subtlety not captured by McKay.   You'll need to reference pictures of the preserved ship - here is a quick one I grabbed from a Wiki entry:

 

 

Looks like the lids above the middle gun deck may all only have one inner eyelet...

 

Hope that helps.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:33 PM

Thank you. I'll follow that tidbit! Might be in McKay?

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:27 PM

bondoman

Plus lifts and eyes (4 each) for the gun port lids.

 

If you adhere to the nuances on the preserved ship... some gun port lids along the upper deck will only have one inner eyelet.

 

You are making rapid and impressive progress!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:29 PM

Force9

 

 caramonraistlin:

 

Bondoman:

I just had a thought which I might try regarding the gun barrels. I could complete several that were all properly glued, seam scraped and barrel end drilled. I could then make a rtv mold of them and pour several replicas at once using a 2 part resin. I guess color can also be added to the resin when it's mixed though I have never tried that. This method would produce acceptable barrels with little scraping involved which would save a lot of time.

Michael Lacey

 

 

 

Technically this might constitute a violation of copyright law - even if there is no intention to resell...  Needless to say, only copy for your own use and it is doubtful anyone would chase after you.

So far barrel assembly is going fine. A good use of a big egg crate sorting tray. The 32s and the 24s are the same parts, but neither of them will show inside anyhow. I can do about two a minute, which puts it within a television show or two. Obviously clean up will be a little more time. They do look good. I do need to put breeching rings on all of the guns however.

Following a couple of good modeling sites, my strategy is to put breeching rope on all of the 32s and all of the 24s., and leave it at that. No training tackle. And I need to figure out a way to attach the ropes to the bulwarks without any fancy or time consuming detail. If any guns come loose, I'll have a fighting chance to get them glued back in place.

All of the 12s on the upper and quarter decks, and the carronades will also have breeching rope. And training tackle on the upper deck in the waist, plus all the guns above that deck.

Plus lifts and eyes (4 each) for the gun port lids.

I have my 2.5mm cable, 1.3mm messenger, 0.5mm breeching ropes, 0.1mm line and various blocks and eyebolts on order from Shipwright World.

I've finished the preliminary work on the hull halves and primed them, and painted the white bulwarks on the lower and middle decks, plus all of the cabin partition interiors.

I've base coated all of the decks, and layed out and masked the upper, quarter/ forecastle, beakhead and poop deck planking. Going to spray those layered colors next.

I've received the two colors I will mix for yellow ochre. Have not made a decision yet on red ochre. Going with Floquil Grimy Black for the hull. I hope to spray the yellow ochre this weekend, if I have the gun carriages finished.

Hopefully by the end of July I will have the hull painted and the lower deck in. I'm going to add various basic details to it, as can be seen through the ports. Nothing fancy, just gratings, manger walls, capstans, bitts and cable. If I can do a deck a month, I'll have the hull finished by Christmas.

I am saving the copper for later.

I'll get some pictures together soon.

That's it for now.

 

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:25 AM

caramonraistlin

Bondoman:

I just had a thought which I might try regarding the gun barrels. I could complete several that were all properly glued, seam scraped and barrel end drilled. I could then make a rtv mold of them and pour several replicas at once using a 2 part resin. I guess color can also be added to the resin when it's mixed though I have never tried that. This method would produce acceptable barrels with little scraping involved which would save a lot of time.

Michael Lacey

 

Technically this might constitute a violation of copyright law - even if there is no intention to resell...  Needless to say, only copy for your own use and it is doubtful anyone would chase after you.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Thursday, July 8, 2010 8:58 AM

This is one I did for a Customer back in 1990 The customer broke the jib and tried to repair it before the picture was taken.

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Thursday, July 8, 2010 8:57 AM

Bondo,

This is one I lost to Katrina

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Wednesday, July 7, 2010 11:38 PM

Progress to report. I searched through my paint supplies and found a nice warm gray to use as a primer coat for the decks, so I've sprayed the plastic sheet that I'll use for the upper, quarter, poop and forecastle decks, also the beakhead deck. Not shown- the undersides are sprayed white.

And the lower and middle deck kit pieces.

I built up the hull thickness at the gun ports with basswood. . This followed cleaning up the ports of any ridge molded in for the gun ports when closed.

I've ordered my yellow ochre paint.

Next- prime the hull halves and figure out the most efficient way to lay out the deck planks.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, July 3, 2010 11:41 PM

I discovered a good source of plastic sheet less than 0.010. Clear plastic report cover.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Saturday, July 3, 2010 10:51 PM

Certainly unusual for anyone to bother with that area - I happen to want to mount my Victory on pedestals and I did all that brain damage on the off chance that someone could see the blank area at some oblique angle...

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, July 3, 2010 8:46 PM

I'm ignoring that area. I plan to set her on keel blocks with ehr keel in a groove, so that area should be hidden.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Saturday, July 3, 2010 2:51 PM

To really wander into extremism... Here are some samples of my effort to fill in the blank area at the bottom of the hull:

 

 

On my trial hull, I had experimented with affixing the longer strips all at once and then scribing the plate pattern afterwards - very neat and much faster, but I didn't find the end result satisfactory enough.

 

I'm still in the early stages, but you can peruse my build log on the Pete Coleman site...

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, July 3, 2010 2:51 PM

Oh that's fabulous! Thank you, saved me a bunch of thinking.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Saturday, July 3, 2010 2:47 PM

If I remember right, Dr. Longridge used a different butt pattern on the poop deck (three step?) vs the quarterdeck...  I am no master modeler, but I may try to modify the decks on my Heller Victory to reflect something nearer to a four-step pattern by filling in some of what is there and scribing some of what isn't there...

 

I've also made my own attempt at adding thickness to the lower gundecks - a first rate needs some thick scantling.

 

I cleaned out each gunport opening and got rid of any semblance of trim or edging that might've been moulded in place - that will be represented by slightly offsetting the linings that I am putting in place.  The moulded ports have all been opened up - as well as the lower deck quarter gallery door.

 

I'll use different thicknesses to represent the diminishing thickness of the sides as you move higher:

3.2mm x 4.0mm styrene strip on the Lower gundeck

2.5mm x 4.0mm styrene strip on the Middle gundeck

2.0mm x 4.0mm styrene strip on the Upper gundeck

The quarterdeck ports stay as they are...

 

Starboard progress so far:

 

I've found that generally I can chop up lengths of just under 1/2" for three of the sides, the fourth is best cut a bit smaller.  I glue the top piece first to set up the alignment, then work clockwise around the opening - carefully checking the fit from the  outside each time. Takes me about a minute or so to do each port.

 

I've paused on the upper deck until I work through the fit of the inner bulwarks that will be visible from the waist. 

 

Once everything is glued I'll come back to fill any small cracks.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, July 3, 2010 10:58 AM

Well, that's an interesting approach to the deck problem.  If I were doing it (heaven forbid), I'd junk the plastic parts and make the decks from individual holly planks, with the seams simulated by rubbing a pencil along each edge.  (Once the planks are cut and penciled, it takes about two evenings.)  And I personally have an instinctive aversion against airbrushes for sailing ship models.  But to each his own.  I'll be interested to see how Bondoman's approach works.

My comment on the inaccuracy of Heller's deck planking had to do primarily with the locations of the butt joints.  As is obvious in the photos of that excellent model at modelshipworld.com, they aren't spaced right.  If I remember correctly, the plans in Dr. Longridge's book (and both of Mr. McKay's) show a "four-step" pattern - that is, every pair of butt joints on an individual deck beam is separated by at least three uninterrupted strakes.  (In the merchant service, it had to be done that way to get Lloyd's certification.)  Heller shows butt joints (on the same beam) on every other strake.

Speaking of deck beams - I remember noting when I reviewed the kit (those many years ago) that it represented a quantum leap forward for the plastic sailing ship kit world in that the designers had finally figured out a reasonably effective way to make a big deck in injection-molded plastic.  The big Revell kits (the 1/96 Cutty Sark, Kearsarge, Constitution, and their various clones) all had their decks molded in three sections - forward, center, and aft.  They inevitably suffered from horrible, hard-to-hide joints (not to mention the potential for warping).  Heller took a step in the right direction with the (otherwise awful) Soleil Royal, whose decks are split port and starboard (with the joints cleverly located at planking seams).  But that kit has problems with deck camber.  The Victory, on the other hand, has a series of plastic deck beams with the camber molded into them.  (I seem to recall noting that the numbers on some of those beams were mixed up in the instructions; better check.)  Great idea. 

Deck camber does present a problem to kit manufacturers - and the bigger the model, the bigger the problem.  Even if the molds have the camber right, there's a big potential problem with warping as the plastic cools.  The best solution I can remember is the one in the Airfix H.M.S. Bounty.  Its one-piece deck has a series of skinny "beams" (so their presence doesn't lead to sink marks on the surface) molded integrally to the bottom of it.  Brilliant.  Unfortunately that kit doesn't have much else to recommend it.

The human memory is a strange and sometimes scary thing.  I probably haven't laid eyes on a Heller Victory (outside the box) in at least twenty-five years, but I can remember things like those little raised lines along the "gunport streaks" and the misnumbering of the deck beams.  (I don't remember which of them were misnumbered.)  But I've been teaching seventeen college students in summer session for the past two weeks and, to my extreme embarrassment, I haven't been able to memorize all their names yet.  And yesterday, when my wife sent me grocery shopping, I had to ask her to write down the things she wanted me to buy - all eight of them - because I knew that if she didn't I'd forget at least one.  Getting old is an interesting, and not always enjoyable, experience.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, July 3, 2010 1:01 AM

Thank you for the tip John. You are correct of course- there are very faint little bulnose lines that can only be the delineations to set the masking at. The sequence will have to be to prime all surfaces, pity that ochre plastic is so...unique, paint the inside lower and middle deck bulwarks white, and then paint the ochre stripes and upper deck bulwarks. Then mask and paint black. Followed by hand work- red coaming at the gun ports, etc. etc. etc.

After assembling the hull I'll tackle the copper, as the keel seam will no doubt require attention at the stem and stern.

There's a list of things needed to be done to the hulls, primarily removing ejector pin marks where visible. And i am going to give consideration to increasing the thickness of the hull at the lower gun deck ports, but I don't know yet if that is necessary.

As for the decks, the center part of the upper deck is visible through the open area around the boat skid beams.

And the waist  section of the quarter deck is exposed as is of course the poop deck and forecastle deck. All of these have very heavily cast planks and grooves. The planks mic out at about 9" at scale and are 35 feet long, which looks too big, and the combination of grain and grooves is very rustic, not the smooth holystoned surface it should be.

The solution- replace them. The poop deck can be sanded down as it has no other detail, but the upper and quarter decks are simple enough to make. I considered turning them over, but there are ejector pin marks all over the underside. I'll have to shave off the gratings, but that's not hard, and they would benefit greatly from new strip frames in any case. They are not very good looking as supplied, just perforated slabs with no detail. The skid beams look bad, they are about half as deep as wide, and look pebbly. Here I am going to create a little homage to Longridge and make proper ones.

The planking will be much better looking if it's simulated with shades of paint, and the caulking drawn on with a Sharpie pen. I'll airbrush on the darkest shade of weathered oak, and then mask my way through a couple of lighter shades, draw the lines and seal it.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 2, 2010 7:37 PM

I hope I may be forgiven if I offer a small, but potentially important, suggestion for painting this kit's hull.  There's nothing original about this suggestion; it has to do with a molded-in feature that isn't mentioned in the instructions.  Well, at least it wasn't mentioned in the English "translation" that used to be supplied with the kit.  I don't know about the French or Japanese versions.  (That English-language document, which apparently was written by somebody who neither knew how to read French nor had attempted to build the model, was a genuine scandal.  I've ranted about it several times in other Forum threads.)

As is explained on the "modeler's section" of the ship's website, those black and yellow ochre stripes that are so characteristic of the ship are surpisingly subtle in their layout.  They don't follow the lines of the gunports - or any other three-dimensional feature.  They sweep gently upward at the bow and stern, and taper slightly at the ends.

Laying them out and painting them in just the right places, and making the port and starboard ones identical, would be quite a challenge.  Fortunately, though, the nice folks at Heller made it relatively easy - for those who are in on the secret.  If you look carefully you'll see a series of extremely fine raised lines that delineate the stripes.  It's easy to miss them among the detail of the "wood grain" and the edges of the planks, but they're there.  Lay your masking tape along those lines and you'll be in good shape.  Sand them off and you'll have your work cut out for you.

Speaking of the planking detail - I think it's worth noting that Heller did a superb job with the layout of the hull planks.  So far as I know, every wood Victory kit - even the big, generally excellent one from Calder/Jotika - ignores the "anchor stock" pattern of the wales.  Heller got it just right.  (Unfortunately the same can't be said about the deck planks.)

Some people think the "wood grain" effect is overdone; I guess I agree, but it's a lot better than that in any other Heller kit.  Others think the gaps between the planks are too prominent.  They probably are, but in my opinion the problem is not that they're too wide, but rather that they're too deep.

Here's another place where the ship's appearance today isn't really relevant.  The people who applied the hull planks that are there now didn't pay much attention to eighteenth-century practice.  (The aforementioned book by Messrs. McKay and McGowen makes the reason obvious:  the maintenance of that ship is so staggeringly expensive that corners have to be cut here and there.)  In the eighteenth century, it was customary to cut the edges of the planks on a slight bevel, so there was in fact a gap of as much as an inch between the planks on their outer surface.  Then the caulker, a highly-skilled professional, would come along and fill the gaps with a mixture of hot caulking compound and oakum, which he pounded into the gaps with his caulking irons.  The idea was that the caulking process would render the joints watertight (or nearly so) when the planks worked back and forth in the seaway. 

The Heller renditions of the gaps probably are a little too wide, but I'd be interested to see what would happen if the gaps were simply filled up, almost to the level of the adjoining planks, with some sort of filler.  (Even white glue might work - depending on the type of paint being applied over it.)  My inclination would be to try to make the seams barely visible in terms of depth, but I don't think their width is a major problem.

Big caveat:  I haven't built this kit, and my opinions of it are based almost entirely on photos of it and my recollection of the sample that was sent to me for review those many years ago.  But Bondoman's photos certainly match my recollections. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Friday, July 2, 2010 2:52 PM

Grem56

Have you been to visit this site yet?

http://www.modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8453

Amazing - what an inspiration. I've saved that link for future reference.

Thanks Grem56,

Geoff

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