Heller 1/100 Victory

Thanks, that's great! I'm adding it to the ref list "Tails of the Queue" post.

Have you been to visit this site yet?

http://www.modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8453

(hope the link works).

Julian

{ yes it does }

I don't know, but I didn't want them anyhow.

Bondoman:

I couldn't help notice on the pictures of the kit you received that there appears to be no vacu-formed sails. My Heller kit is stuffed full of about 3 to 4 huge sheets of them. Maybe this is something they started leaving out in the later kits? I know a person either loves them or hates them but they can be used as the basis to make more realistic copies.

Michael Lacey

glad it arrived in one piece.

Jake

Today the mail delivered this wonderful item:

I was surprised to find that it's an Imai boxing of the kit. As such, there are two distinct sets of instructions, with independent drawings, and while I don't read Japanese, the illustrations at first glance appear much clearer and the printing quality and paper quality makes them more legible. First order of business was to scan both for the archive.

Also a very pleasant inclusion was a stout little box with five sizes of twisted black cord on sizable spools labeled Imai. Whether that's of use or not I'll discover later, but it's encouraging.

I'm going to spend the evening cleaning up the two halves of the hull. There's a lot of work to do, and there are very visible ejector pin marks in a couple of areas that matter, plus a lot of overdone wood grain that needs to be sanded down inside the bulwarks and on the decks. On the hull I'll let it go. This weekend I hope to have the major hull pieces primed, and the decks possibly primed too..

Bondoman:

Forget to add a little more info. about my proposed mold. I'd make mine one part. I'd make a styrene box and glue the cannon muzzle down to the bottom of the box. Then fill it with 2 part rtv. Let dry and then remove the box. The rtv should give enough that the barrels could just be pulled out of it. However, I forgot that the ends of the cast barrels would have to be drilled out anyway. I still plan to try it sometime and see.

Michael Lacey

Michael lacey-

Good idea, but there'll still be a seam.

Here's my tuppence.

On the lower deck, the outboard end of the gun is what matters.

On the middle deck, same except the guns below the skid beams and boats.

On the upper deck,quarter deck, forecastle etc. most important.

Once I get all of the carriages together, I'll prep all of the barrel parts, which I'd guess are the usual halves. Start by removing any locator pins- those are just trouble. Scrape/ sand any flash. Match halves to each other and grade pairs. Keep the beauty queens for the exposed areas, send the rest below, forward/aft, etc.

Also, when it comes to gluing them, without pins, I'll work from the muzzle. I don't think I'll mind a step at the breech on most of them if the muzzle lines up nice and tidy.

Then paint Floquil Grimy Black (my favorite steam engine color) and maybe rub with graphite if it looks good.

Now the Victory site (thanks John) suggests the muzzle faces are red. Eh, that'll make any irregularities in the bores show.

Come on kit, get here!

jtilley

 

Regarding the color scheme - that's pretty simple.  Go to the ship's website and open up the "Modeler's Pages."  They're you'll find a detailed color scheme, based on the latest scholarly research (which was conducted in the buildup to the Trafalgar bicentennial).

 

bondoman

Geoff- see my "conversation" re: rope machine. If you give me your email, I'll send you the sketches from Longridge. Don't think I'll be violating any copyrights.

Thank you Bondoman. That would be much appreciated.

 I don't think you will be violating any copyright either. It is my intention to buy this book for my collection anyway (at a much later date) all you will be doing is to 'whet my appetite' in the same way as google books does already.

Geoff

Geoff- see my "conversation" re: rope machine. If you give me your email, I'll send you the sketches from Longridge. Don't think I'll be violating any copyrights.

jtilley

Geoff - if you're just starting your model, you're a long, long way from needing a rope-making machine.  To build a 1/96 Cutty Sark you probably don't need one at all.  (One big reason for using a rope-making machine is that it lets you produce cable-laid rope - i.e., rope with a left-hand twist.  Cable-laid rope was in quite common use in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, but not in the Cutty Sark's era.  Most of her standing rigging is made of wire anyway.)

John,

Earlier in this thread Publius (Paul/Bankok) inspired me with his motto ‘Slow is Fast’. It is a very good motto.

At the moment I am but a mere apprentice who is soaking up the knowledge and experience of others.

Already I have gained so much from the discussions here and I’m so glad that I’m taking my time.

While I realize I am a long, long way away from needing a rope making machine or if I will ever need one, I am finding it fascinating learning about all the skills our forefathers possessed and employed and how these ships worked. These things help me in understanding the machine I am building. Couple that with the personal joy of knowing something has been ‘done right’.

I have barely done anything constructive on the actual kit for over two weeks now, confining myself to little experiments like the belay pins and now the subject of deadeyes.

I am enjoying this side benefit almost as much as making the model together with the thought that the final result will (hopefully) better than I anticipated and preventing disappointing disasters.

Geoff

Bondoman:

I just had a thought which I might try regarding the gun barrels. I could complete several that were all properly glued, seam scraped and barrel end drilled. I could then make a rtv mold of them and pour several replicas at once using a 2 part resin. I guess color can also be added to the resin when it's mixed though I have never tried that. This method would produce acceptable barrels with little scraping involved which would save a lot of time.

Michael Lacey

bondoman

 One consistent theme in all of the sources I've found concerning a large scale Victory model, Longridge included, is to be economical about concentrating on what-you-see. L for instance would have you only plank the upper deck in the waist, the middle deck under the gratings, and the lower deck not at all. Plus the diagonal flooring in the cabins and wardroom. In that same vein, many models omit the gun tackle on all but the same areas, or grossly simplify it.

caramonraistlin

Bondoman:

Are you planning on using the kit barrels or are you going to replace them? I know I looked into replacing them with brass ones once as Model Expo appears to carry some of the correct length and shape. A

One consistent theme in all of the sources I've found concerning a large scale Victory model, Longridge included, is to be economical about concentrating on what-you-see. L for instance would have you only plank the upper deck in the waist, the middle deck under the gratings, and the lower deck not at all. Plus the diagonal flooring in the cabins and wardroom. In that same vein, many models omit the gun tackle on all but the same areas, or grossly simplify it.

Building a plastic sailing ship model, or at this point, contemplating one, seems to be like absently twiddling the rubber band on a flying model while listening to a lecture by Ed Heinemann; when reading Longridge. Oh, not to underestimate the challenge and realize one's limitations painfully, but Longridge and his craft tend to have the most remarkably understated observations, and here I paraphrase a little;

"Form the main deck in two halves of 1/16" spruce, precisely joined down the middle and cut on a template exactly so that it lies flush with the hull, with an even space all round for the waterway stringer",

or,

"As you add the decks, remember to bore a hole for each mast in such a way that they slip in without binding and stand true when fitted".

Time to sharpen the sprue nippers. Elsewhere I've read: "A good plastic sailing ship model can reduce an effort that would take decades to one that takes years." I'll drink to that!

Here's today's question. Most sources would agree that the bulwarks, hanging knees and overhead in the gun decks are enameled white, although there is the occasional model I see that has red. Photos seem to be of white, although they post date by many refits and restorations. Color opinions?

I don't think I could lay hands on my old Lego "rope-making machine" - and in any case it's so primitive that nobody would want to use it as a source of inspiration.  The drawings in the Longridge book are a much better source.  Once could also modify the components of the Model Expo version.  (I personally don't like it in its unmodified form - for the reasons I explained earlier in this thread.  But it looks to me like the looper and whorls could be made to work.  If I have need of a rope-making machine in the future that's probably the route I'll go.)

Geoff - if you're just starting your model, you're a long, long way from needing a rope-making machine.  To build a 1/96 Cutty Sark you probably don't need one at all.  (One big reason for using a rope-making machine is that it lets you produce cable-laid rope - i.e., rope with a left-hand twist.  Cable-laid rope was in quite common use in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, but not in the Cutty Sark's era.  Most of her standing rigging is made of wire anyway.)

We've discussed the idea of aftermarket replacements for the Heller Victory's guns before in this Forum.  Unfortunately the aftermarket sources don't seem to offer enough sizes of gun barrels that are the right shape.  And aftermarket guns actually don't, in general, have as good - or as much - detail as the Heller parts, which are in fact pretty accurate.  I sympathize with the problem of gluing together all those parts, and eradicating the seams, but I'm afraid that, if what you're after is good, scale gun barrels, there's no simpler solution. 

jtilley

A "rope making machine" is a gadget that twists several strands of thread into one larger one.  It has a couple of advantages over using standard manufactured thread.  One - if you make your own rope you have virtually unlimited control over the range of sizes.  Two - the product of such a gadget looks a lot more like like real rope than ordinary thread does.

......  I still question whether a really good-looking piece of rope can be made without a top, though.  I think I'll hang onto my Lego version.

John,

Do you have a photo of your machine you could post? Sounds most interesting.

Geoff

Bondoman:

Are you planning on using the kit barrels or are you going to replace them? I know I looked into replacing them with brass ones once as Model Expo appears to carry some of the correct length and shape. After building Heller's Soleil Royale the thought of gluing together another 100 or so sets of barrel halves, scraping the seem off and then redrilling the end of the barrel is a little daunting. Just curious as to which method you plan on following.

Michael Lacey

Good enough then, one less complication.

GeoffWilkinson

bondoman:

I am interested in lighting the ship. Whale oil lamps flicker, don't they?

 

Google "LED Lighting for Model Ships" to start with.

I did see somewhere online someone building the Revell kit had installed flickering leds to emulate oil lamps. I wish I had saved a link. It is out there somewhere!

Geoff

Actually, oil lamps don't flicker. As the flame is in an enclosed lamp, the light is steady.

Geoff it looks to me as tho the only rope I need to concern myself with in the next 6 months is the gun tackle and the main cables and messengers.

John the idea of a rope making machine from Lego sounds interesting- I'll have to look into that when the time comes. Longridge even has sketches of his.

Obviously wire can be twisted without the machine if malleable it should hold it's shape.

Geoff an internet search seems to point to good sources for silk thread. It isn't cheap, but once one knows the weight and color, spools can be purchased economically.

I need a model: it should be here any day.

A "rope making machine" is a gadget that twists several strands of thread into one larger one.  It has a couple of advantages over using standard manufactured thread.  One - if you make your own rope you have virtually unlimited control over the range of sizes.  Two - the product of such a gadget looks a lot more like like real rope than ordinary thread does.

If you think about it a second you'll realize that just twisting three pieces of thread together will not make a piece of heavier thread.  As the individual strands are twisted together, two things happen: they get twisted around their own axes, and they get twisted around each other.  If they're simple twisted together, the individual strands will get twisted so tightly that, eventually, they probably will break.  If they don't break, they'll be under such tension that, as soon as the ends of the finished piece of rope are released, they'll untwist themselves. 

The rope making machine is a fairly simple gadget that simultaneously twists the three strands together and twists them individually, so the tension is equalized.  The machine has two components:  a single wheel (called the "looper") at one end, and three geared wheels (called the "whorls") at the other.  In most modelers' setups the looper is clamped to something solid (e.g., the edge of a workbench), and the whorls are provided with some sort of mechanism that allows them to move closer to the looper as the rope is spun up.   One final component, called the "top," is a movable, bullet-shaped gadget with three grooves in it.  It moves along between the looper and the whorls as the rope is spun; the three strands run through the grooves in the top, which keeps the pitch (the angle at which the strands intersect) constant.  An old, pre-twentieth-century ropewalk essentially worked the same way.

When I was working on the Heller Soleil Royal (my most-regretted model project ever - but don't let me get started on that one) I discovered that the longest pieces of line in the ship, the main topgallant backstays, would have to start out as pieces of silk thread about twenty feet long.  I mounted the looper and whorls on two sawhorses, which I moved gradually across the floor of our basement as I made the backstays.  As I remember, the job of making that one piece of rope (starting from the deadeyes on one side of the ship, up to the topgallant masthead, and down to the deadeye on the other side), took something over an hour.  Great activity for listening to a ballgame on the radio.

The best explanation of how to make a rope making machine that I've encountered is in Dr. Longridge's Anatomy of Nelson's Ships.  He was building a model on 1/48 scale; his machine incorporated a miniature railroad track that ran the length of his back yard.  Lesser projects obviously don't need to be that big - nor do they need to be motor-powered, as Dr. Longridge's was.  One beauty of the process:  if it works at all, it works perfectly.  I don't think anybody can distinguish between the rope Dr. Longridge made on his super-sophisticated contraption and the stuff I made with my Lego-based one.

Model Expo is currently marketing a pre-assembled rope making machine that's simplified in several ways:  it has no means of moving the two end components, and it has no top.  It struck me initially that it couldn't work.  I read the instructions, which ME kindly offers online.  Apparently the thing will only function in one direction - such that the individual strands are being unwound as the the looper spins them together.  I guess that's mechanically sound if you aren't worried about the direction of the lay.  I still question whether a really good-looking piece of rope can be made without a top, though.  I think I'll hang onto my Lego version.

bondoman

I have set a goal of finishing the at homemodel to the bulwarks by the end of 2010, and then the standing and running rigging all of next year. One interesting insight is that I may use wire as opposed to thread for the gun rigging, the gunport rigging, the cables and most of the other hull related lines. The stuff is available in all kinds of gages down to invisible, and I think a rope making machine may be the way to go.

Bondoman,

From what I have read about rope making machines is they are designed to put and extra twist into the strands. It seems this may be a problem if you are using wire. I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has tried using wire.

Geoff

I think you're on the right track using wire instead of thread at that scale... Only the breeching ropes and anchor cables need the heft of thread.  The efficacy of wire extends to the rigging - great for seizing lines and sometimes ratlines.  I've found plenty of different gauges in the jewelry section of my local craft store.  Sometimes tricky to keep the smaller gauges kink free - try rolling between two flat pieces of metal...

Report from the bilges- the McKay and Longridge books arrived today and stunning are they. I've put them on the desk with Landstrom and will sit down tomorrow with a pot of brew and begin to read.

First order of business will be to find a dedicated model space to work in. I suspect there will in fact be two- in my office and at home.

I have set a goal of finishing the model to the bulwarks by the end of 2010, and then the standing and running rigging all of next year. One interesting insight is that I may use wire as opposed to thread for the gun rigging, the gunport rigging, the cables and most of the other hull related lines. The stuff is available in all kinds of gages down to invisible, and I think a rope making machine may be the way to go.

I've been fiddling around with my own Heller Victory for the past year or so - I figure I've still got a few years to go.  Actually I'm working from two kits... When I dusted off my 20 year old Heller kit I found a few warps and cracks that led me to outbid a Belgian on eBay for an Airfix version.

Modeling to her Trafalgar appearance is an adventure in frustration... Entry ports?... bulwarks? ... stern davits?  My suspicion is that the preserved ship (which I visited in '97 on my honeymoon!!!) is a wonderful compromise between multitudes of experts and realities of time and treasure.  Not necessarily, however, an exact depiction of her Trafalgar configuration.

My own perspective leads me to put more reliance on contemporary sources rather than the preserved ship.  In particular I compare and contrast the great Turner painting, the dockyard model in the NMM, and the epic Clarkson Stanfield painting in the United Service club London.  This last painting provides the foundation for my current build.  Interesting to me is that all three of these sources generally agree on two key elements - the Victory had the bulwarks built up on the foc'sle and there was no entry port.  Most interesting to me is that both Turner and Stanfield show the yellow ochre bands extended forward around the cutwater - certainly not an approach taken by many (if any) modelers and obviously not represented on the Portsmouth Victory.

I highly recommend the Pete Coleman site - those gentlemen have many helpful insights that can save time and enhance any build.

Thanks Geoff, I took your advice and found some info, including a spat about whether or not a lighted ship model most resembles a saloon, because an unattended lamp in a warship is a no-no! So, moderation, but it's something I'll need to tackle early as wiring the hull after the fact just won't do. I should be getting my books any day. I'm off to the shore for a long weekend- perfect!

John, I took a look at Bluejacket blocks and that all seems reasonable. And you are right- at the rate this will take, there'll be Christmas, Father's Day, My Birthday before this is done.

I am scratchbuilding an aircraft carrier and building a Liberty Ship, so those will be my primary distractions.

I am really excited about this kit. It sounds like a beautiful object.

My paternal grandfather was a man of means who was a modeler of all sorts of subjects. Unfortunately he died at the age of 41, so we never met. I have quite a few of his railroad models, all handmade in 1/48 scale.

When I was a teenager my father gave me a model of the Cutty Sark his dad had built in wood. I don't know if it was a kit but I'm almost certain it was not. It seemed to be at about the scale of the Revell kit- 1/96 would make sense as it's an architectural scale and those seemed to be his preferences. It had had an accident involving a high shelf, so that while fully rigged, the masts were snapped off at deck level. I left it behind when i went to college, and they've since moved, but I'm interested in going through their stuff to see if they still have it.

bondoman

I am interested in lighting the ship. Whale oil lamps flicker, don't they?

Google "LED Lighting for Model Ships" to start with.

I did see somewhere online someone building the Revell kit had installed flickering leds to emulate oil lamps. I wish I had saved a link. It is out there somewhere!

Geoff

Geoff I might just do that. One of my best friends, my Best Man, lives in London, although he's been in Dubai the last two years building the world's tallest (for now) tower.

I joined the Pete Coleman site. Yes, John, many sleepless nights are in the future.

I'm pretty organized and tend to project manage myself pretty well. I'm inclined to put this thing on a schedule and budget and work from that. No doubt there's plenty of AM stuff to spend a fortune on, I'm sure starting with the batteries. Suggestions welcome. Certainly all the blocks, but that will be a while from now.

I am interested in lighting the ship. Whale oil lamps flicker, don't they?

Hi Don,

yes, that is probably the best and only way to build a big project like the Soleil or the Victory. Build until you get fed up with it, build something else and go right back in........................................................

cheers,

Julian