New Trumpeter 1/200 Arizona Released! w/Crew!

Thanks for these details.  Supplemental PE includes the metal barrels, as you describe.

Several sets of this selling on Ebay in the $17.00 range.

Paul, thanks for the pics, that's one big kit!

Your website is wonderful BTW, I bookmarked it so I can come back and browse at my leisure.

DrWind

Thanks for these details.  Supplemental PE includes the metal barrels, as you describe.

Several sets of this selling on Ebay in the $17.00 range.

This Upgrade Set is now in stock at some vendors.  I should be receiving mine in about 4 days from ScaleHobbyist.com ($15 & change + Shipping).

Here's a link to an interesting article on the correct colors of the Arizona.  I'll be using and going by it when I build mine..........if I can ever get it out of layaway   It sure is expensive for me, a full-time grad student living off a university stipend.  But,  had to get ti..even if it is putting me in debt up to my ears!

http://mikeashey.com/SHIP%20ARTICLE%20PDF%20FILES/ARTICLE-BATTLESHIP-COLORS-AT-PEARL-HARBOR.pdf

Cbax1234

Here's a link to an interesting article on the correct colors of the Arizona.  I'll be using and going by it when I build mine..........if I can ever get it out of layaway   It sure is expensive for me, a full-time grad student living off a university stipend.  But,  had to get ti..even if it is putting me in debt up to my ears!

http://mikeashey.com/SHIP%20ARTICLE%20PDF%20FILES/ARTICLE-BATTLESHIP-COLORS-AT-PEARL-HARBOR.pdf

An interesting theory by Mike Ashey, but he is missing a few facts.  The only colors authorized to be painted on the vertical surfaces of the battleships at the time of December 7, 1941, were 5-D (Dark Gray), and 5-S (Sea Blue), which was a medium blue.  The pictures he shows first are all of the other battleships at Pearl that day, and the consensus of opinion is that they were all still in their 5-D colors, which is why they were so dark.  Many of the sailors at the time thought that 5-D looked almost black.  There was no Dark Blue at that time.  Shortly thereafter, 5-N (Navy Blue) was implemented.  This is the color that was used on the Pennsylvania after its re-fit.  The picture Mr. Ashey uses of the Pennsylvania is after it's re-fit and conversion to its dual 5" turrets.  Probably around 1943-44.  By then 5-D was, I believe, no longer used.  Here is a good picture of the remaining portion of the Arizona that was still above water after the attack.  It appears to be a cloudy day, which should make all the colors look slightly darker.  The Fighting Top of the Mainmast is still 5-L (Light Gray), while the lower portion of the Mainmast has been burnt black.  The Foremast Fighting Top has also been burnt black, so we know what black looks like in this picture.  Now notice the much lighter color of the rear Main Turrets.  Neither was involved in the fire which engulfed the remaining boats on the Boat Deck.  Yet they are much lighter than any other area except the Mainmast Fighting Top, which we know was Light Gray.  The Splinter Shields on the edge of the Boat Deck also appear to be this same lighter gray as the rear turrets.  From this picture, I can only conclude that these rear turrets were 5-S (Sea Blue).  

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013916b.jpg

Also, the Arizona was the only battleship at Pearl, following the issue of the 5-S Order, that was in & out of dry-dock before Dec 7 (Pennsylvania was in on Dec 7, but hadn't been finished yet.).  This was in October after a minor collision during manuevers.  This would have been a perfect time to have it repainted, since they were going to have to re-paint the damaged area anyway.  Whether they actually did or not, no one really knows.  Nobody has found the smoking gun as yet giving the order to do so.  So with pictures like the above, and other evidence of a similar nature, and lack of any pictures between Oct 1941 and Dec 1941 showing her as 5-D, I will paint mine as 5-S.  Hopefully, someone will find some color pics of this time frame and we can put this controversy to rest.

Tracy is absolutely correct.  I have changed my descriptions of 5-S above.  I was confused by a recent reference to Mediterreanian Blue.  My bad.

1) Mike really doesn't present anything useful and in fact presents a lot of misleading arguments. The methods a digital program strips out colors with presents a completely different representation than orthochromatic or panchromatic film. The life photos he mention are blue-shifted.

2) 5-S was Sea Blue and NOT mediterranean blue; the Navy NEVER used that term and it should be excised from use in this discussion.

3) Pennsy was repainted in 5-S at Mare, not 5-N

4) 5-N did exist before the time of the attack, as this speedletter demonstrates. Note that it references an October 20th BuShips letter about 5-N. The question is, how quickly was this sent out and its use in the general fleet ordered? DO NOT SPECULATE PLEASE.

5) There is a large misunderstanding about ship painting I'm seeing all over the web. Ships were painted by more than just shipyards, and WHAT they painted into was usually NOT dictated by the shipyard. Not that in this memo, the Commander of Cruisers, US Navy Battle Force, orders Helena to pick up materials for 5-S Sea Blue and to paint herself in 5-S before any specific orders, such as the SHIPS-2 Revision 1 that officially codified the new measures, were issues by the Navy. Pearl Harbor Navy Yard didn't even have the mixing formula for 5-S until  late October due to lost correspondence, but by that time Mare Island had been ordered to send out direct replacements.

It's not likely they got it correct with regard to the main color, but there is a chance.

First off, no one has absolute proof for December 7th... it's a very muddy issue. It gets tension charged because of some past events as well as frustration from guys who just want to know how to paint their model and really don't like finding out there's this whole argument back and forth.

There were a bunch of posts that were removed from this thread earlier today; I had nothing to do with that; I neither reported of complained about what was said... I just wanted to get that out there to stave off another round of angry PMs from CBAX and NBXAT.

OK, short, short version of 1941 US Navy Camouflage... still many questions, but you can see what I've found in three different US National Archives branches here. Is it definitive? Far from it.

Essentially, The Navy transitioned from the camouflage they had been using for 20 years in 1941, and did it poorly. In January, they released SHIPS-2, which defined new colors, including 5-D Dark Gray, 5-0 Ocean Gray, and 5-L Light Gray. Camouflage Measure 1, which the majority of the fleet was to be painted in, consisted of 5-D on vertical surfaces from the waterline up to the top of the smoke stack, and then 5-L above that. In order to save paint, they came up with a conversion paste that could be mixed to the pre-war gray to color it to an equivalent of 5-D. They had production problems though, and we don't see evidence of ships at Pearl Harbor painted into Measure 1 until June of that year.

By this time, the Bureau of Ships had become unhappy with 5-D (adhesion problems and it "chalked" quickly) and had started working on a replacement. On the last day of July, they ordered 5-D discontinued and replaced with 5-S, referred to as Sea Blue. Keep in mind this is four months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. In August the one yard responsible for paint on the West Coast (Mare Island Navy Yard) starts sending letters to ships and other yards canceling their requests for 5-D and telling them to resend requests for 5-S. Pearl Harbor Navy Yard managed to lose their copy of this memo for six weeks, finding it in mid October. However, other commands at Pearl Harbor such as the Commander of Cruisers, Battle Force, and individual ships such Arizona herself, receive their copies.

So, what we don't have in the documentation is an order for Arizona to paint in 5-S. We don't have any correspondence the shows she received any from Mare Island. We do know she was repainted in late October/early November following a collision with another ship, but did she use her own stocks or Pearl Harbor's? Did she repaint based on orders Pearl Harbor had for how to paint ships, or specific orders to her or her BatDiv that have not been located (and might not exist?)

There is plenty that can point in either direction. I've made three trips to the records of Pearl Harbor and Mare Island Navy Yards and am planning a trip to go through records of other commands... it is something I am "actively" pursuing, but by active, I mean one or two trips per year as my HOBBY dollars allow.

The Trumpeter paint guide calls for Navy Blue and white... the white is definitely wrong. we have no evidence that Navy Blue reached Pearl Harbor before the attack, but we do know they knew about it, having had a camouflage experiment using it ordered in mid/late November. 5-N Navy Blue used the same ingredients as 5-S, 5-O, and 5-L, so it would be something that they could have fairly easily and "instantly" switched to before the attack once they knew the mixing rations of the tinting paste and untinted white base.

5-D is safest.

wbrown1, go with what tracy says.

WBrown, Mike's a decent modeler, but that's what Fince Scale hires for, model building skills, writing skills, and photography skills. How about Dan Jayne's Arizona. He's published in Fine Scale, so therefore he's more trustable than I, correct?

How does hobbyist mean that one can't be an expert? I suppose you consider Richie Kohler and John Chatterton just hobbyists? Have you ever heard of Amateur professionalism?

Interested in your response.

WBrown:

I second going with what Tracy has been saying about the Arizona's colors. He has been actively searching for the answer to this question for years!! If anyone has a clue he does. He is also a regular contributor to several ship modeling forums. Mr White knows what he is talking about. Also note his call sign is "researcher at large"!

Sincerely

Michael Leo Lacey

How long is the kit? Don't forget to get the photo-etched.

Bocks Suv

How long is the kit? Don't forget to get the photo-etched.

36.5 inches

This thread got my juices flowing. Today I picked up the Hobby Boss (Banner) kit. It looks like a good basis to start from. I'm a year away from starting it, so by then I should know what color to paint her.

36.5 inches.
Wow.
That makes me want one!

I have to throw this in there for you modelers out there who have this kit . If you want more crew and you are at wits end figuring out where you,re gonna get them. Worry no more! You can go to your L.H.S.and in the train dept. you will find PREISER brand figurines that you can convert. They make people to go with "N" scale sets.Thats 1/160 scale and they will work IF you get the merchant seamen set (or two or three etc.)I just wanted to put this out there for you all to think about.I compared the ones I have with the crew supplied and they are darned near the same size! Check it out !   tankerbuilder    P.S. the average viewer of the finished  ship won,t notice the difference if you distribute them smartly.

also not everybody is the same size so having different size figures would be more realistic.

Someone posted here, or on ModelWarshipForum that the same company also makes figures in 1/220 scale, which he said makes them about 5'3" in 1/200.  He thought the figures with the model were about 6' scale.  So there are a couple of options.  I like the option for the merchant seamen.  At least they should be posed reasonably.  You could put the ones with the kit that are At Ease posed in their dress whites and pose them along the rail!

Dress whites should reserved for sailors on watch at the quarterdeck, not for a random manning of the rail. Just about the whole crew would be involved in that. Maybe some random groups of sailors going on or coming back from liberty.

And I don't care what anyone says, I'm painting mine PINK!

Oh, wait, that was Operation Petticoat. My bad. 

I think that's a great idea, Pink! I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but what I read a few posts back about the color makes me wonder. I know that some people strive for total correctness, but if veterans can't come up with a sure color scheme then who in this lifetime will know if it's correct or not. No matter what color you paint it, when someone comes over to the house and looks at this I doubt that they are going to say "the colors wrong", they're going to say "wow, that looks great". I build in plastic and wood. I have some ships that I know have rigging mistakes, but I don't care. You know why?, because I'm not expecting the curator from the Smithonian for dinner anytime soon. Modeling is supposed to be FUN. I think I'm going to get one of these, and look at some pictures and paint it what I think will look good, and I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that it's the color I wanted it to be. I'm with you mfsob, paint as you think fit, just have fun doing it, and if you paint it pink be sure to post some pics.                 

                                                                                                                               Ken

KennyB

I have some ships that I know have rigging mistakes, but I don't care.

Modeling is supposed to be FUN.

I think I'm going to get one of these, and look at some pictures and paint it what I think will look good

Of course fun, but in case You described - not modeling fun, but model-like toy making fun.

Anyway - thats is free choice, what You want to do with fun - a scale model or a model-like toy :-).

Fun!  You bet. I was wondering if you or aanyone kows of a site, thread or link that focuses on unique, fun modeling projects such as plans painted oddball schemes,  kit bashed hybrids, models combined with wedding cakes, etc??  I'm just curious baout how fun and creative some folks are getting. 

  The judges at my local contests dont seem to care about accuracy and authenticity, just finish quality and consistency. So you can paint a P-38 pink and they'll love it as long as it's well done. At the regionals and nationals, I imagine that things are different...perhaps more rivet counters go there.    

While I personally don't care how people finish their models, the name of this website and the magazine is Fine Scale Modeler. I would suppose that some members of the forum will be more concerned with detail than members of a website dealing with collectibles, for instance.

Bocks Suv

The judges at my local contests dont seem to care about accuracy and authenticity, just finish quality and consistency. So you can paint a P-38 pink and they'll love it as long as it's well done. At the regionals and nationals, I imagine that things are different...perhaps more rivet counters go there.    

Speaking as a nationally qualified IPMS ship model judge, you are correct.   We put the primary emphasis on the quality of construction and finish application.     Most models are knocked out of competition during the first pass when seams,  alignment, glue blobs, and pebbly paint  are examined.   Then several closer looks at the remainders for detail application.   If PE is used are the nubs removed,  is it painted consistently or are nicks, cracks & scrapes apparent?  Is it applied straight & unwavering?   Are their shiny glue spots?

If it comes down to a couple of excellent examples that are in a dead heat; their construction is impecable - no seams, alignment is on,  details done to a similar level  and their finish is applied with no flaws,  tape ridges, runs,  holidays, etc.  -  it may come down to the 'feel' of the subject.    Which model 'feels' right.   Here the pink may play a factor in determining the placement.   ALL things being equal, the pink would come in second to something painted more traditionally.  

Yes, I have made decisions at the 3 foot level -- which one looks better at three feet than close up.  An award has to be made and which is least offensive

Aircraft IPMS judges are a bit more anal about color and marking  'accuracy' requirements.   IMO, you get more ship color "experts" at local or regional events than at the nationals.

Was the Arizona Sea Blue,  Navy Blue, Mediterranean Blue,  Dark Gray, SNG,  Haze Gray,  mauve,  or puce,  I don't know.    You, the builder, are the expert and we generally defer to your decisions WRT color selection

subfixer

Dress whites should reserved for sailors on watch at the quarterdeck, not for a random manning of the rail. Just about the whole crew would be involved in that. Maybe some random groups of sailors going on or coming back from liberty.

Do sailors have other white uniforms than their Dress Whites?  All the pics I have seen of the sailors manning the rail show them in white.  I don't mean just a bunch of sailors standing near a rail.  I know if you are going to make it look good, you will need to cast a whole bunch more figures.  Trumpeter only gives you 64, so about 20 in each pose.  The Trumpeter figures only come in three poses, At Attention, At Attention Saluting, and At Ease.  The way they are molded, they are pretty much unmodifiable.  Plus, their caps look like they were borrowed from the Sta-Puff Marshmallow Man.  So where would you put figures like these?  None of them are walking, or doing anything.  I think Trumpeter  screwed up a chance to have a really good feature with this model, but instead they made nearly useless toy figures.  I am hoping some of you former Navy folks can come up with some ideas that might look believable.  About all I can think of is put all the saluting figures in a group, in lines, and have one of the At Ease figures painted as an officer, who has just finished addressing his men.  Or all the At Attention figures in a similar group currently being addressed by their officer.  Do the sailors ever salute as a group?  Or do they just come to Attention?  Would two officers be saluting each other?  I can't imagine a Captain, or Admiral, coming to attention to return a salute from a Lieutenant, unless said Lieutenant happened to be a MOH wearer. 

These sets of figures from Preisser sound like they could make quite a difference.

*realizes he is now guilty of thread hijacking as well ... ponders the implications ... chuckles evily and thinks, "Maybe I could find a place for a pink Arizona after all ..."*

LOL   How can it be hijacking if you have the name Arizona in it? 

tucchase

subfixer:

Dress whites should reserved for sailors on watch at the quarterdeck, not for a random manning of the rail. Just about the whole crew would be involved in that. Maybe some random groups of sailors going on or coming back from liberty.

 

Do sailors have other white uniforms than their Dress Whites?  All the pics I have seen of the sailors manning the rail show them in white.  I don't mean just a bunch of sailors standing near a rail.  I know if you are going to make it look good, you will need to cast a whole bunch more figures.  Trumpeter only gives you 64, so about 20 in each pose.  The Trumpeter figures only come in three poses, At Attention, At Attention Saluting, and At Ease.  The way they are molded, they are pretty much unmodifiable.  Plus, their caps look like they were borrowed from the Sta-Puff Marshmallow Man.  So where would you put figures like these?  None of them are walking, or doing anything.  I think Trumpeter  screwed up a chance to have a really good feature with this model, but instead they made nearly useless toy figures.  I am hoping some of you former Navy folks can come up with some ideas that might look believable.  About all I can think of is put all the saluting figures in a group, in lines, and have one of the At Ease figures painted as an officer, who has just finished addressing his men.  Or all the At Attention figures in a similar group currently being addressed by their officer.  Do the sailors ever salute as a group?  Or do they just come to Attention?  Would two officers be saluting each other?  I can't imagine a Captain, or Admiral, coming to attention to return a salute from a Lieutenant, unless said Lieutenant happened to be a MOH wearer. 

These sets of figures from Preisser sound like they could make quite a difference.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Yeh, traditional paint schemes and colors would win over a perfect pink plane, but I bet there are some heated discussions among judges over what were the actual colors and numbers on planes and armour.  You should have seen the look on my face when I first saw models of polka-dot bombers that were used to form up a squadron.  BTW, what are "holidays??" 

subfixer

Dress whites are worn during the summer months and in the tropics, they are made of cotton and are much more comfortable (but harder to keep clean!) than dress blues, which, in earlier times, were made of 100% wool. Now they made of gabardine.  Dress blues are worn during cooler months and in cold conditions are supplemented with  a pea coat.. There is an order given fleetwide as to when the uniform shift is to take place so all will be dressed alike. On those days when it turns cold during the time when whites are required to be worn, it is not incorrect to show a pea coat being worn with dress whites.

 

Cool!  Thanks for the info!  My Dad says he hated his Dress Blues because the wool itched him like crazy.  But they were warm, and that he liked!