HMS Victory sails and rigging

I was recommended two books that have both served me well.

From John Tilley:

"1.  John McKay, Anatomy of the Ship:  The 100-Gun Ship Victory.  This is typical of the Conway Maritime Press's "Anatomy" series:  a set of incredibly detailed drawings accompanied by a brief text and a decent assortment of photos.  This particular one has drawn some fire from naval historians due to some gaffes in research - most of which aren't particularly relevant to the modeler working from the Heller kit.  But in terms of draftsmanship the drawings - especially the isometrics - are absolutely superb.  I consider myself unworthy to sharpen Mr. McKay's pencils.

2.  Allan McGowen and John McKay, H.M.S. Victory:  Construction, Career, and Restoration.  This is a big, coffee-table-type book, but a real mine of information about the history of the ship herself.  For this project Mr. McKay augmented his "Anatomy" drawings with a considerable number of new ones; the goofs of the earlier book are corrected, and the new drawings actually cover the rigging more thoroughly than the first set.  There are also more photographs, and a great deal of material about the ongoing restoration and preservation of her as a "museum ship."

3.  C. Nepean Longridge, The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships.  This is an old classic, dating from the early sixties.  (It's currently out of print, and used copies, unfortunately, are pretty expensive.  But it's worth tracking down - maybe in a library.)  The title notwithstanding, it's a detailed account of how Dr. Longridge built his famous 1/48-scale model, which is now in the Science Museum in London.  Much of the text on building the model will be only of curiosity value to anybody starting with a kit, but the biggest virtue of the book from the plastic modeler's standpoint is its verbal descriptions of the rigging.  Longridge describes the run of each line in his text.  The book also comes with a fine set of drawings by George Campbell, which undoubtedly would be regarded as the standard plans of the ship if Mr. McKay hadn't come along.  For builders of the Heller kit, this book is my first recommendation."

I bought items 1 and 3; they've been so valuable. You can get Longridge used for around $ 25. Mine has the big drawings bound in, I've heard it was also published with them loose so make sure you get them.

one thing you will find is that using cloth sails at this scale is hard to use. the weight of the small cloth will actually pull your rigging and make it droop. it will also pull on your masts and yards causing them to bend and look un-natural.

another option is to try silkspan. i have heard of modelers having success with this material in making realistic looking sails at smaller scales. best of luck to you on this.

thank you for the quick answer.
i have been considering to buy longridge's book,in sweden atleast they have started to print new...well i dont know what its really called but lets say versions of it.same content,new book.
but the problem is,it costs well over 25 dollars,about 60.
even used one's are very expensive.
so if you had too choose from one of the ones you got,wich would you pick? 

I'll look at the rigging plans in McKay when I get home. But it's hard to beat Longridge. Supposedly you can buy the Campbell plans from the Museum.

thank you enemeink,i sure need that ;)
well i can say that the glue im using is extremely strong,so no worries for yards falling off or something,secondly the cloth i use may be as you say silkspan,cause its much thinner and lighter than common cloth,but yet still strong.im not sure but its plausable.
what i also want is the wind in the sails,and i know a way to accomplish this,i only need a final...method to make it stay that way.my mom (yes my mom,16 years old still living at home :) suggested varnish...if thats the correct word...or lacker...lacker sounds more like the swedish word,to make the sail firm and "keep the wind in the sails"
i wonder if you have any other recommndations for stuff that could ensure wind in the sails? 

many thanks bondoman!

I've used tissue paper cut to shape and sealed with a mixture of elmer's glue and water with good effect.  It is light and looks like scaled-down canvas.  It can also be bent to shape.

Bill 

On smaller scale sailing ships many modelers use a fine pencil to draw in the seams between panels, whether on cloth or paper.  One must use care on lightweight cloth to keep the point from being too sharp or it will snag the cloth.  If you are good on a sewing machine you can just stitch in a fake seam.

i have considered sewing the seams,but since its so many lines on such a small scale maybe it would look better if i drew them. well,many thanks for your answer!
bill:what kind of glue is elmers glue?  

CoreTech,

Elmer's Glue is the trade name of water-based white craft glue, at least in the US.  When diluted, it makes a nice "wash" when using tissue paper for sails.  It can also be used to make paper mache.  Jig Saw puzzle enthusiasts use it as a "plastic" sealant when cementing their puzzles together.  When used full strength, or undiluted, it can be used to adhere PE parts and clear plastic parts to models.  It is very versatile!

Bill

well it sounds pretty much like the glue i have right in front of me.
mom has a lot of experience in hobby stuff like papier mache so im gonna ask her what kinda glue that is,since im across the world im still not 100% certain of wich type you mean,allthough i will find out. 

wallpaper glue is what she uses,so i guess what you mean is something in between...i just remembered (i have a guppy's memory) that the glue in front of me as i said,didnt work out,so it must be some sort of,middlething or whatever you should call it.
ill look into it,but thanks for the tip! 

another method to try for making sails is this:

Soak the paper you are going to use in water and drape the paper over the vacu-formed plastic sails. Press the paper down against the plastic sails to make an imprint on the paper. let the paper dry while on the plastic sail. once dry, lightly spray the paper with a clear coat out of a spray can. Be careful not to soak the paper too much with clear coat. again let dry on the plastic sails. once that dries, cut out the paper sails and install the sails to the yard arms.

thanks for the tip!
we dont have completly white tissue paper,mom said she would fix some,so in the mean time i've been trying the other method with cloth.its currently drying up after being painted with a coat of lacker.
but just as im starting to feel good about my build,guess what? i lose my lower fore yard...its absolutely frustrating,i've turned my room upsidedown to find it but it doesn't seem to be anywhere. im coming to the point of asking around for spare parts,but i suspect its hard to find that.im also thinking of doing a new one myself,wich is a h*ll of a job. but i atleast will get back my yard if i do that.

i found my yard! what a relief...
so no need to fix a new one. but i still have some questions about yards.
as i said i woul like royal yards,i think it makes the ship look more "complete".
does anyone know or know a place where you can find the dimensions of the individual royal yards?
also im curious about the sails that are put on the yard arms,wich would not just make the ship look complete but also absolutely stunning! 

CoreTech

i found my yard! what a relief...
so no need to fix a new one. but i still have some questions about yards.
as i said i woul like royal yards,i think it makes the ship look more "complete".
does anyone know or know a place where you can find the dimensions of the individual royal yards?
also im curious about the sails that are put on the yard arms,wich would not just make the ship look complete but also absolutely stunning! 

This brings up an old thing I read about when I was much younger, which apparently is an old idea- that you display naval ship models with all yards up and all running rigging, but no sails, but put sails on merchant ships.  I have seen enough models to know that some folks go by this recommendation.

I am assuming the idea is that the in-place running rigging adds detail, but the sails would make it more difficult to see that detail, but that is only my assumption.  Anyone else ever hear of that idea?  I read it in a couple of places, but sure don't remember where- it was at least forty years ago.

i actually read that in another forum a few days ago,model ship world the name is i believe. it was about the airfix/heller 1/100 hms victory,the builder folded his sails to show the detail of the rigging.it sure looks nice,but i think i'm more of a sail guy. my vision is to have my victory as it was when it sailed towards trafalgar.about 40 sails total if i dont remember wrong. ofcourse i wont make 40 sails,but i want to include the royal sails and the yardarm sails on the top and top gallant yards on the fore and main mast. maybe even the extra sails on the lower yards if i can find out where these yards are placed since they stick out of the hull and not the masts.

Ok, the "extra yards" finally clicked for me, along with the fact that you are not a native nautical english speaker.

The term in english is "studding sails" (also referred to as "stun'sails").

The studding sail yards (called "booms") are carried in iron hoops forwards and above the yards when stored (stowed) away and not in use.  In use, the booms were run out through the hoops so that half their length extended past the supporting yard's end. 

Depending on the wind and sailing direction, these could be run out on one or both sides of the ship.  The actual studding sail sometimes had a yard at its head to hoist it, sometimes not.

In all cases, the rigging for studding sails is considered "flying" in that all the parts were set up to need.  So, the booms were pretty simple, no real complicated blocks or fittings.  Sailors slithered out to the ends and tied off the sails, and the yards were braced around to the wind, and off you went.

The lowest studding sails were set from booms on the course yards, and on booms hinged from the deck.  Those lower booms required considerable work, and the lashing and handling of them was right in the way of the upper gun deck or carronades--so, it was something you did only when speed was more important than tactical advantage.

Royal yards were often set "flying" as well (I forget if that's the case with Victory).  The yard and furled (folded) sail would be hoisted to the topgallant top.  A block would be attached below the mast truck, and a halyard (:haul yard) tackle used to carry the royal yard to the peak.  The clews of the royal sail  would be lashed to the yard arms of the topgallant yard.  Then, haul in  the tackle to lift the yard up, and give it a parrel lashing to hold it to the mast.  Some navies used braces on the royal sails, others counted upon the wind and topgallant braces to set the correct sail angle.

Core Tech,

One possible source for the reference books you need is your local library. 

Writing paper that is made for international air mail is very light and fine grained.  I've never tried this myself

but you may be able to print seams and stripes on paper sails using your computer and an ink jet printer.

Good luck with your project and, please post pictures.

All the best

Ray

CapnMac: I can understand the frustration of reading my swenglish (swedish-english),since its much harder to explain in english and the fact that im not familiar with all the parts of a ship. i'm well aware of how the stun'sail yards work although not the royal yards so thanks for the info! and even more needed was info about the lower booms.much appreciated!

Ray: i'll get some photos today,maybe i should make this thread little of a buildlog?
and your tips are much appreciated as well,but i think i will stick to my cloth sails,i think it looks very nice even though there is considerably more work to do.

i haven't found any litterature about the dimensions of victory's royal yards,so i have been "studying" paintings of victory instead. it seems like the royals have about the same dimensions as the topgallant yards. does anyone have the knowledge to confirm that?
i actually called the library,and the only books they had about sail ships from the age of sail was about wasa,so no luck there. i'll try to call the library in malmö,they should have something since its the third biggest city in the country.

I'm not familiar with Sweden that much, and of the Swedish library system even less--but see if they can do an inter0library loan of "The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" by C. Nepean Longridge.  Despite the title, it's all about HMS Victory, specifically building a 1:48 scale model of her.

The other volume to ask about would be "Anatomy of the Ship:  The 100 gun Victory" which I think is from Conway Press.

In any event, on page 159, Longridge gives the dimensions of the Royal yards as, length = 1/2 topsail yard length; and diameter = 1/2 topsail yard diameter; and the taper the same as all other yards.

Rather than quote the topsail yard "plan" length, it might be best to use the length of the yards in your specific kit for the dimensions.

many thanks capnmac!
i have the ability to..not think very much unfortunatly.
if malmö doesnt have anything im sure the national library in stockholm has it and that they can send a copy to me. hmm...i dont know if i dare to make the diameter half of the topyard's on this scale but i'll try to make it about the size of the topgallant.
invaluable information,thank you very much! 

some pics on my build,if you want to see something else just shout and i'll get some more pics!

Wait a minute... you are 16 years old? Dang, man that is amazing. That is a very very nice model, I'd be proud to call it my own.

I'm not really familiar with that kit. I see she has side ports. And did you copper the hull?

thank you bondoman :) its allways nice to hear that someone like your work.
yup im 16,but im really passionate about moddeling,and especially sailing ships,so i put a lot of effort in this thing hehe :)
no i didnt,i used humbrols enamel copper paint actually. i dont know where to get copper tape or whatever its called. but if i work with a ship on a larger scale with copper hull i'll search for places ofcourse.
regarding the side ports im kinda grown into them. every model and every picture of the victory i've seen have them,but i know its a hot topic weither they were there from the start or if they sacrificed a gun port on each side for them. personnaly i think it gives the ship a little character so i dont mind. right know im putting a gray wash on the deck,though the result isn't as i imagined,sure the colour looks nice but there's loads of dust on the quarter deck. i've wiped the deck 3 times but it seems like the dust like the quarter deck. dont wanna go away.

my quarterdeck look like crap

Core-don't panic!

I buy my copper tape online. The places to get it are stained glass suppliers. Here's the one I use.

http://store.allstainedglass.com/copper-foils.html

I'm stuck on my Victory as well at the upper gun deck. On the lower plastic decks I used a US Navy color; Light Gull Gray which is common in spray cans.

there is many things that i have discovered (mostly of colour) that i should've done before assembling her. i made the same misstake as with wasa,no proper research.
after soaking up all of this knowledge,i think the airfix hms victory is very poorly done. gun ports are different sizes on the same deck,details are left out that is possible to do on this scale,the painting scheme is horrible and many pieces are warped or done wrong.one thing that especially disturbs me is the railing in the front and back of...uhm...sorry for my poor knowledge of ships again,part of the ship that you can see down on the upper gun deck. im not an experienced scratch builder but i'll try to make some custom parts,i reeeaaaaally want this too look good,and after seeing ANOTHER POLISH success in making the ship,i'm even thinking about to tear of the poop deck and do some work on that section.