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HMS Victory sails and rigging

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  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, June 17, 2011 7:46 AM

I rarely use white tissue but an off-white or light tan to more closely approximate the color of canvas. I think it makes the model look better.

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, June 17, 2011 8:00 AM

Core Tech,

Model building is an acquired skill, one that takes many people years to accomplish.  I see remarkable progress between your Wasa and your Victory!  I am very impressed by your progress, especially after only two ship models.  The fact that you are critical of your own work, seek advise from others, and are even considering redoing the poop deck shows a maturity far beyond your years (I teach high school history and rarely see that kind of dedication among teenaged students!).  Keep up your positive attitude, your excellent work habits, and you will soon build an award winner!  More importantly, keep asking questions!

Bill

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by CoreTech on Friday, June 17, 2011 8:13 AM

wow...that was some really nice words,thank you very very much bill! really inspires me to go on!
well i have some questions in store for you. as i told you,im painting the deck with a gray wash,cause when i started building it i didnt knew the decks usually was gray after some time in service. the problem now is,that since its thinner mixed with colour,its very watery and it doesnt cover upp really good.wich was the original plan,BUT,i thought it would create a thin layer of grey,not lumps of grey,so now...the deck not only look dirty and dusty,the plank detail is also going to hell. (painted the deck too much) you have any tips on how to fix that? i've allready assembled the full deck and almost all shrouds are in place so if painting it is the only option...well i will do it even if its gonna be a pain.
now to the good news,too get away from the trouble of that big mighty ship,i've started a "mini-project". im using the parts of the lifeboats and custom made masts and boswprit to make a sailing-capable long boat.fortunatly i had 2 poop decks when i got the kit,so im using it to make replacements and custom parts. so far the bowsprit,mast and forkyards (thats what the yards are called in swedish atleast) are done and drying up after a coat of dark brown paint. later tonight i will assemble it and start with the rigging,do some measuring.by tomorrow ill try to have the sails ready for the little one.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, June 17, 2011 8:46 AM

Core Tech,

Try lightly scraping with the dull side of an X-Acto knife to bring out planking detail.  That would also scrape away caked paint build up.  Try it and see what happens.

Also, email me with your address and I will send you a bottle of Elmer's glue.

Bill

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by CoreTech on Friday, June 17, 2011 8:54 AM

thank you bill,well the glue isn't needed,but many many thanks for the offer. Smile
lacker works very good to make the sails keep their shape. ill get some myself if i need it,no need to go thorugh the trouble of sending a bottle of glue trans-atlantic. im really starting to feel home at this forum!

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by CoreTech on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 5:04 AM

sorry for a slow updating but since my girlfriend is here i take care of her in front of modeling,shes staying for two weeks since she lives 40 metric miles away,buuuuut,that doesnt mean the build has stopped,only slowed down a little. my longboat is coming along pretty nice,although im not sure where to go from here,ill post some pics,sorry for the bad quality.http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/Core-Tech/hms%20victory/DSC00787.jpghttp://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/Core-Tech/hms%20victory/DSC00787.jpg:

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Kincheloe Michigan
Posted by Mikeym_us on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 11:24 AM

Well if you can find it there are Copper leafing pens that are more metallic looking than Humbrol paint.

this is what I achieved with a leafing pen

 

CoreTech

thank you bondoman :) its allways nice to hear that someone like your work.
yup im 16,but im really passionate about moddeling,and especially sailing ships,so i put a lot of effort in this thing hehe :)
no i didnt,i used humbrols enamel copper paint actually. i dont know where to get copper tape or whatever its called. but if i work with a ship on a larger scale with copper hull i'll search for places ofcourse.
regarding the side ports im kinda grown into them. every model and every picture of the victory i've seen have them,but i know its a hot topic weither they were there from the start or if they sacrificed a gun port on each side for them. personnaly i think it gives the ship a little character so i dont mind. right know im putting a gray wash on the deck,though the result isn't as i imagined,sure the colour looks nice but there's loads of dust on the quarter deck. i've wiped the deck 3 times but it seems like the dust like the quarter deck. dont wanna go away.

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15   http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by CoreTech on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:45 PM

mikey: thats a pretty nice result for being a pen! but i must ask,is that a plastic model and if so,wich one,i havent seen one as small as thisone in plastic. looks like hms surprise

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Kincheloe Michigan
Posted by Mikeym_us on Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:55 PM

CoreTech

mikey: thats a pretty nice result for being a pen! but i must ask,is that a plastic model and if so,wich one,i havent seen one as small as thisone in plastic. looks like hms surprise

It is a plastic kit. The kit is the Lindberg USS Constellation that I got for .50 cents at a flea market.

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15   http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by CoreTech on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:48 AM

ah,wich you have converted into a vaptured vessel i guess?
i have a little off topic question,i've asked before about dutch fluyts in plastic,and im planning for my next project a dutch warship. are there any plastic dutch warships out there except the wappen von hamburg,if not,how well is the WVH made? 

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Kincheloe Michigan
Posted by Mikeym_us on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 1:17 PM

CoreTech

ah,wich you have converted into a vaptured vessel i guess?
i have a little off topic question,i've asked before about dutch fluyts in plastic,and im planning for my next project a dutch warship. are there any plastic dutch warships out there except the wappen von hamburg,if not,how well is the WVH made? 

Captured? no I plan on building it as the Constellation as is but doing more with the rigging than the bare bones rigging plan that the instructions call for.

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15   http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by CoreTech on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 4:22 PM

hmm,have no real knowledge of the us navy at the time,but i know that many of their vessels were painted black and white,i thought that all vessels were painted that way. guess i was wrong Smile

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Kincheloe Michigan
Posted by Mikeym_us on Wednesday, June 22, 2011 4:50 PM

Black and White was the colors of the USS Constitution and the Black and yellow was Constellation. The color coding was used to identify each ship.

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15   http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by CoreTech on Thursday, June 23, 2011 5:04 AM

i've seen several us ships bearing the colours of black and white so i thought it was the national colours.

back to the build i've  sewn the sail on the top fork yard and im going to make a new lower fork yard,i lost the other one plus i can make some improvements on the new one.
as soon as it is done im going for the triangular sail,actually i dont kow its name but its gonna be put in place.after that its only some rigging that remains and i'll have a fine little boat that can tow the victory into port :) Smile 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Thursday, June 23, 2011 11:48 AM

Well, the concept of "national" rules for things like uniform painting of naval vessels happened later in history.

Individual Ship Captains, and Admirals of Fleets could decide to have their ships painted to their orders.  Even within larger rules, there was room for interpretation.  English Admiralty rules would only specify things like painting just the wales, or in filling in between the wales with imprecise terms like "ocher."  It was only later, middle and late 1800s, that rules like bands of color defined by the gunports were adopted.

Such things can look odd to our modern eyes, since we have grown accustomed to the appearance of museum ships, many of which have kept the same paint scheme for a century or more.

Probably the only other modern military example might be in World War One aircraft, where individual pilots of sufficient renown or wealth could have their planes painted to suit their own tastes.

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by CoreTech on Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:22 PM

sorry for not updating,have been with my girlfriend on her fathers farm for a week.
coming home was bittersweet,also in the modelling aspect. it was nice to see my lady standing proud and mighty on the shelf,but i cant stop thinking about the colour.im somewhat obsessed with 'em,as those of you who followed my wasa threads noticed. i painted my victory with linen something,humbrol 71,but the real ship is painted in yellow ochre. it makes the airfix recommended colour look pale,and sometimes even greenish.and also i've seen the fist ever except me who have made a longboat out of the airfix kit...and i get really jealous.so...im gonna paint the longboat masts and yards the same colour as he cause it looks so much better.but can you guys help me out on the other issue,ive tied ALL shrouds so it would be a hell of a job to do em all over again after repainting the masts...i have some serious thoughts about actually  doing it. also,wich colour below the waterline do you prefer on the victory,im considering to paint it white...hmmm

  • Member since
    January 2014
Posted by gazzler1850 on Monday, March 31, 2014 7:24 PM

I am in the process of assembling the Heller HMS Victory.  The instruction's are absolutely terrible but am making progress.  My main problem is the thin Plastic sails,....one of them has torn off edges I cannot repair it.  I think I will try your method and utilize but would like to know what kind of paper to use.  I mean like toilet tissue, Kleenex, or ?  Once I know that I believe the effort would be successful.  Again, these Heller sail's are from the thinnest, weakest plastic for model's I've ever seen.

Many thank's,

Marshall

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, March 31, 2014 7:35 PM

Hey Marshall-

Coretech hasn't been around for at least three years.

Kleenex and TP are designed to dissolve in water. Unsuitable.

Try using thin typing paper, bond if you can find it. If you go to a stationery or office supply store they usually sell the good stuff used for resumes, important letters etc. by the sheet.

Some of it has a visible "weave" or at least a nice texture.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2014
Posted by gazzler1850 on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:54 PM

Many thank's , Sir.  Your info. much appreciated.  I will try using the thin typing paper, bond if I can find.  I'm 86 year's old and have built the Revell (all 1/96 scale) of the USS Constitution (2), Cutty Sark (4), CSS Alabama (2) and Thermopylae.  All were easy build's with great part's and instruction's. I think this HMS Victory will be my last build.  Hope I can get through it.

Sincerely,     Marshall

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 4:31 PM

My pleasure and I hope it's not your last. Felt that way a few times and I'm "only" 57!!!

I'm really impressed that you are still modeling and have the steady hands and eyesight.

Bravo, Sir!!!!

If you send me a personal message "conversation" with your email (DO NOT TRANSMIT IN THE CLEAR HERE) I can send you a set of scans of the Imai instructions for the kit. Even though they are in Japanese, they are about ten times more understandable than the Heller originals. Completely new drawings and diagrams.

Cheers

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 10:38 AM

another option for thin material is silkspan. It's a thin covering that is used for RC airplanes and has been mentioned here a few times.

I have also seen people use thin paper, get it wet with a water down glue solution and then drape it over the plastic sails to get the form and shape of the plastic sails. once dry spray trim it to fit.

"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Lyons Colorado, USA
Posted by Ray Marotta on Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:28 AM

You may be able to find these books in your country's library system...

 ]

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:25 PM

I'll take the liberty of throwing in a few thoughts here.  These are, of course, personal opinions; take them for what they're worth.  They're based on about 57 years of ship modeling experience.

I long ago gave up on "set" sails.  There is, to my eye at least, just no way to do them effectively - at least on that scale.  In the maritime museum where I used to work there were several enormous models on scales of 1/4" = 1' or larger, that had impressive, believable sails made from individual strips of cloth.  And a number of excellent modelers have gotten great results on models in very small scales.  But I've never seen a sailing ship model in the 1/100, or 1/8" = 1', range with set sails that looked at all convincing.

Remember that, as thin as those vac-formed plastic sails are, they're far too thick for the scale.  A piece of canvas that's 1"4" thick is a mighty thick piece of canvas.  On 1/100 scale, a 1/4" thick object would be .0025" thick. 

Another problem:  the typical sail of 1805 was made up of many pieces of fabric - some of them thicker than others.  The canvas typically was manufactured in strips about 2' wide (i.e., about 1/4" on the scale).  Think how many 1/4"-wide strips it would take to make even on sail of the Victory to scale.  Maybe it could be done - but not by me.

Most sails on models lose their effectiveness because of lighting.  When a real sail is illuminated from behind, all those dozens of seams between the cloths become highly visible.  Thicker sections (reef bands, reinforcements, patches, etc.) show up prominently in silhouette.  And, oddly enough, objects behind the sail (between it and the sun) show up in silhouette as well.  I've never seen that effect duplicated on a model.

I'm a big believer in furled sails.  Here's a link to an old Forum thread in which I discussed that idea with several other people - and suggested a technique involving silkspan tissue, white glue, and acrylic paint:

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/33775.aspx?sort=ASC&pi240=1 .

And here's a link to some pictures of a model I built with furled sails:

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/155391.aspx?sort=ASC&pi240=1 .

To my eye a model with furled sails almost always looks a lot better than one with set sails.  A 1/100 Victory with set sails would look like a big, room-dominating cloud; the sails would divert attention from the rigging and all the stuff on the hull and decks.  And my eye (speaking personally again) always asks an unanswerable question:  Where's the wind coming from?

A ship with lowered yards and furled sails, on the other hand, to my eye projects a look of latent power - and realism.  The functions of all the rigging lines are clear (as they wouldn't be if the sails were omitted), and the eye is drawn to all parts of the model more-or-less equally.  The overall shape of the ship is obvious; the sails don't obscure anything.

There's also a lot to be said for leaving the sails off altogether.  In that case I'd suggest thinking about leaving off the rigging lines that are made fast to the sails (clewlines, buntlines, sheets, tacks, reef tackles, reef points, etc.).  A model with no sails can look really spectacular.

Again, all this is a matter of personal opinion and taste.  But I hope all will agree that it's worth thinking about - carefully.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:59 PM

To me sails and in particular ones set, means sailors.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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