USS Arizona Colors Question

agentg

It is fascinating how much we don't know about one of the greatest world wide conflicts in modern history

There's some fascinating research rebounding through the Information Management field relating to a phenomenon of having so many search engines available.

It seems the pervasiveness of search engines is engendering a belief that all extant information has, in fact, been cataloged for discrete or explicit searches.

Which is just one more thing to make IM types groan.  If plied correctly they will lament that not all known books are cataloged, let alone scanned, or even online.

There is, though, work being done, by way of the cooperative proofreading projects online, where various old tomes have been scanned, and the text optically scanned into online content.  They need volunteers to take and go through and find and correct those scans.  it's a hit or miss proposition, you might read a volume from 1891 on world exploration, then a text on milling machine from 1951, to a history of Baltic peoples from 1910 or the like.

agentg

It is fascinating how much we don't know about one of the greatest world wide conflicts in modern history

There's some fascinating research rebounding through the Information Management field relating to a phenomenon of having so many search engines available.

It seems the pervasiveness of search engines is engendering a belief that all extant information has, in fact, been cataloged for discrete or explicit searches.

Which is just one more thing to make IM types groan.  If plied correctly they will lament that not all known books are cataloged, let alone scanned, or even online.

There is, though, work being done, by way of the cooperative proofreading projects online, where various old tomes have been scanned, and the text optically scanned into online content.  They need volunteers to take and go through and find and correct those scans.  it's a hit or miss proposition, you might read a volume from 1891 on world exploration, then a text on milling machine from 1951, to a history of Baltic peoples from 1910 or the like.

The Navigator

Wow, never would have thought that. What do you look for specifically? I find the whole idea of this fascinating.

Well, I'm lucky in that I have a regional branch of the archives in my home town (Seattle). I don't have access to the records from other regions unless by pure luck a report was forwarded from another base, but I do have records from Puget Sound Naval Shipyard and the 13th Naval District to run through... in the last decade I've cast a wide net and learned a lot about how the Navy transmitted information, so as such I don't really look for things specifically. However, there are a few targeted areas.

First, start off with the Navy Filing Manual from WWII (actually it was for before and after, but the copy online is from 1941). Look through the file code groups near the bottom; they're broken down by subject such as logistics, ship's material, etc., that part should be pretty easy to figure out. Then it gets a bit more arcane. Each subject is broken down by code, and then further subdivided. In this case we're interested in camouflage, which is under "S19" for "Preservative coatings" in the subgroup of S19-7 "Camouflage. We might also be interested in S19-1, which was "Paint."

Pretty easy to follow, right?

At each of the archives will be a group of finding aids; mostly these are paper print-outs that list box contents by file code; if you're lucky the archivist had enough time when processing the records from the Navy to include a textual description here and there of what's in the folder,  An example from my notes in Seattle is:

YC/S19-1    "Coal Barges and similar non-propelled Steel Vessels - Protection of Surfaces"

Don't know what the YC is? We turn back to the finding aid and look for the range that has YC in it and then scroll down a bit and find: YC OPEN LIGHTERS. Hmmm.. OK, paint, but not really a subject that's all that exciting.  I looked at it anyway, but didn't find anything exciting, of course.

Once one knows about the filing manual, reading through Navy documentation gets interesting. I post a lot of documents to my site, and when I do, I post them in their entirety, including file codes. So, let's peruse a couple and see what areas might be of interest here.

Take this April 1941 memo effectively putting the WWII camouflage into effect. The file codes are:

C-S19-1(1)(DYr)(SM)
EN28/A2-11

and

BUSANDA NO.
L4/JJ-52(13)
L8-2/NY6

The top group (which is on the left of the document)  has a relevant string of S19-1 / EN28/A2-11 which translates out to Painting / Bureau of Ships /  Departmental orders.

The bottom group (on the right of the documents, BUSANDA stood for "Bureau of Supplies and Accounts") translates out to Purchasing / Material: Paints / Procurement (Requisitions) / Norfolk Navy Yard. Each Yard had a designation, NY6 was Norfolk, Mare Island was NY9, etc.

As we can see, a good system for it's time to break down and classify materials by subject matter. No, I do not have all of these memorized; I created a cheat sheet of codes that are relevant to my interest and keep a copy of the filing manual on the computer as well to reference when looking through finding aids. This is a lot like combat too, whereas instead of long periods of boredom followed by moments of sheer terror, we have periods of tedium followed by either "hey, that's neat!"

Now, as far as Arizona goes, the yards were ordered to destroy their records on her as she was considered a loss and there was "no reason" for anyone to waste storage space on a ship that the Navy was done with; I mean, who is going to be interested in her now? So we're looking more for fleet directives and then what essentially are echos, such as this memo, which I found a copy of in the Mare Island Navy Yard.

That sentence, "Finally, bear in mind that there is some evidence that Arizona may have been in the midst of a repaint at the time of the attack, and therefore may have been wearing some of both of the above schemes!" has the ring of truth.

    Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily.
        George Santayana, as quoted in Quotations for Our Time

agentg

It is fascinating how much we don't know about one of the greatest world wide conflicts in modern history .

Keep at it Tracy, inquiring minds want to know! 

G

True

Wow, never would have thought that. What do you look for specifically? I find the whole idea of this fascinating.

 

AgentG: I was one of the original researchers who was involved in the firestorm about five years ago, and I've kept plugging away at it. This upcoming trip is another attempt. Navigator: There's PLENTY left unread. I've cultivated an interest in USN camouflage in general; while Pearl Harbor was perhaps the largest catalyst and a huge drive still, there are other projects now as well; there is much about the amphibious greens and the dazzle schemes that we don't know. I've hit the two main west coast NARA Archives (San Francisco & Seattle) for a number of years now and think I have most of what could provide answers filtered through, but there are archives on the east coast as well besides the main one in College Park. NARA New York, for instance, I think potentially has some interesting documentation. My wife is somewhat annoyed that other than Hawaii, my idea of interesting cities to visit is largely based on whether or not they have NARA archives nearby!

"I say anyone stating to know the truth doesn't know what they're talking about!"

Tracy, can I borrow that for a quote? 

Looking forward to what you find out. What do you do, spend hours upon end looking over documents, photos, etc.? And, are there any new files left?

This will also give you a couple of options.

https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/page/Ship+Camouflage+Schemes+Colours/20/

I bought tickets out to DC for the last week in October. I'll be researching during the extended hours and the day of my flight back, so I wouldn't expect anything that week, but if I find anything It will probably be shortly thereafter.

I could completely bust and have nothing, of course. But even if I don't, It will mean something.

Bad Tracy! Bad, bad Tracy!

P.S. - give me a head's up so I can have the popcorn all ready to go for when the heads start rolling back and forth

The Navigator

everyone believes they are 100% right with those disagreeing to be complete fools.

Not everyone; I say anyone stating to know the truth doesn't know what they're talking about!

I'm actually hoping to have serious advancement on the research done this fall though, so hopefully "soon" I'll stir up the blue muck again and we'll see how everyone takes it.

It is indeed, a can of worms.  I just found an older discussion about this where I asked the same questions.  Had the kit back then, but stuff came up and I didn't get to it.  Now I am actually starting the build.  I said in the other post that I'd go with 5-s, so I guess that'll do.  thanks, guys, for the input!

Congratulations! You have just opened the proverbial can of worms. Many sources say many things, and everyone believes they are 100% right with those disagreeing to be complete fools. Pick which scheme you like best(dk gray vs sea blue,etc.) have at it and post pics when you're done.

Mike

Yeah, I knew there was a ton of info on the turret tops, so I'm not questioning that or the lighter color fighting tops.  But, the overall color of the rest of the vertical surfaces is the problem.  Thanks!

Bigb123

I get confused reading all the different posts pertaining to this.   Was she in measure 1?  If so, would that be 5-D, 5-S, 5-N, or standard navy gray,  with the fighting tops 5-L and red turret tops?  Thanks!

I have no special knowledge, but there seems to be a difference of opinion. Hollywood seems to think she was in measure 1 (which given the known inaccuracies in ‘Tora Tora Tora’ and [barf] ‘Pearl Harbor’, would make me take a contrarian position), but there are a slew of Arizona models with red turret tops.

Tom Freeman's painting of the USS Arizona

Trumpeter Arizona 1:200th