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smart kits ?

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  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Thursday, January 12, 2012 7:56 AM

I'm sure they will continue, I'll just continue to complain by not buying Dragon 'smart' or otherwise kits.

What is the point of buying something you cannot use?

I am also sure that other consumers will vote with their wallets, after all, you don't get paid to sing in an empty hall.

 

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:24 PM

It's of weariness and not superiority. I've been accused of denigrating opinions, but I'm really just disagreeing with the use of a word. I questioned people who aren't mold engineers calling something over-engineered.

Anyone wants to call the kits overly-complex, I'm fine with that.. You want to call something over-engineered when you don't know design; well I guess that's your prerogative, but it's not worth that much, and that's not an insult. I'm not a doctor; I would not take someone questioning a medical proposal I made as an insult.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Dreadnought52 on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:20 PM

Tracy White

:: sigh ::

Hi Dave.... good news for the rest of us, they ain't stopping. You're going to have stuff to complain about for years yet.

 

::sigh::, ::hurrumph::, ::tsk:: or whatever other expression of superiority you might want to make don't you think it would be better to defend on the merits of the kit and not simply denigrate other opinions?

 

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 8:13 PM

:: sigh ::

Hi Dave.... good news for the rest of us, they ain't stopping. You're going to have stuff to complain about for years yet.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:42 AM

Here in the UK we have a phrase for making something more complex than it need be. This act is called 'Over-egging the pudding'.

One can't help feeling that it is rather odd for Dragon to wish to alienate a significant chunk of its potential market in order to prove that it can make a simple plastic construction kit so complex that no one wants to buy it for fear of not being able to construct it successfully.

 

I'd love to see their sales figures for their new line of kits, especially their 1/350 Scharnhorst since it was released..

It wouldn't surprise me if sales volume for this kit was so low that they'd never consider doing another in such a complex manner.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 9, 2012 6:59 AM

I love SMART kits...and again (broken record cause no one reads I guess), SMART kits were Dragon's efforts to simplify their new generation of kits that were perceived to have too many parts/overly complex when they were first introduced...If you think the SMART kits are "difficult/part intensive" now, go back and look at one of the pre-SMART kits...

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: UK
Posted by four-star on Monday, January 9, 2012 4:31 AM

Good point from Tracy that the instructions aren't necessarily done last, rather whilst in production meaning it's an evolving thing - might explain some of the more interesting assembly steps that we see I guess.

To be fair about the Smart kits though, I think it's good that you now have the ability to buy kits of this level of detail out of the box at a time when many modelers seem to be getting frustrated that a kit won't look good unless it's got loads of AM on it...

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Sunday, January 8, 2012 8:59 PM

One of each; you need to find someone to trade with if you want two of the same Huh?

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    May 2010
  • From: Berwick, La.
Posted by Tnonk on Sunday, January 8, 2012 8:37 PM

Hi Guy's,

I'm looking at getting a 'Smart Kit' boxing of the 1/700 Livermore & Monssen.

I'm a little confused on these kits - contents wise that is.  My understanding is that these 'Smart Kits' come with two complete kits but I read a review somewhere that stated you could build two ships with the kit - a waterline and a full hull.  

The thing is - I want two full hull models.

Did I miss-read the review or does the kit come with two complete kits - including full hulls for both? Or do I need to get two kits to get my two full hulls??

Didn't mean to hijack the thread but it is about 'Smart Kits' right? 

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Thanks!

Adrian

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Saturday, January 7, 2012 12:22 AM

:: shrug ::

I still think it's miss-using the word, but it's all opinion and everyone has one.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 6, 2012 7:43 PM

Dreadnought52

...if someone wishes to assess the kit as being over-engineered that is their perogative. 

Your response is patronizing to say the least.  Your inference is that anyone who makes a critical comment is a lazy of indifferent builder.  A customer's comments about a product are the most important.  Neither I or anyone else needs to be experienced in plastic mold design to comment on the final product in whatever way we feel would convey the essence of our thoughts.

Agree...

  • Member since
    December 2011
  • From: pennsylvania
Posted by kettenkopf on Friday, January 6, 2012 4:19 PM

[quote user="Tracy White"]

kettenkopf:
No, just get through some builds without wondering what the instruction writer had in mind when he wrote them.

Truly good instructions shouldn't need words for more than parts or paint labeling. I should be able to look at instructions from Eduard (Czech Republic), Tamiya (Japan) as well as Dragon (China) equally well, without having to understand the native language.

[/quoteTracy, it was just a joke on some of the poor syntax and phrasing used in some of the instructions.]

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 6, 2012 3:55 PM

Although a lot of the posts in this thread are true they are off base in answering the OP's question..."SMART" is a marketing term to describe the philosophy behind what Dragon did after they had a lot of negative feedback from their overly-complex kits when they introduced their "3rd generation" line...some that come to mind are their first 88mm gun and their first Panther G...their Afrika Korp Mk III is another.  Most modelers felt that while the detail was outstanding and the mouldings state-of-the-art, it required too much time and effort to assemble for the average modeler...they even went back and turned some of the original kits into SMART ones...less parts w/o any appreciable loss of detail...  

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Dreadnought52 on Friday, January 6, 2012 3:51 PM

A good review of a kit will inform the prospective purchaser of the type of model being sold.   Advocating that the original poster avail himself of such a review before purchasing was my point.  

For many people in the hobby dealing with such intricate detail is a bit too much like work, not pleasure.  I have been building models for over 50 years and I always check out the reviews of kits before I buy them to avoid too much frustration.   The initial reviews of this kit emphasized the molded in details and excellent fit but not enough was said about the plethora of truly tiny parts that must be used to complete the subassemblies.  Mea culpa, mea culpa for not waiting for more detailed reviews....  However, if someone wishes to assess the kit as being over-engineered that is their perogative. 

Your response is patronizing to say the least.  Your inference is that anyone who makes a critical comment is a lazy of indifferent builder.  A customer's comments about a product are the most important.  Neither I or anyone else needs to be experienced in plastic mold design to comment on the final product in whatever way we feel would convey the essence of our thoughts.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, January 6, 2012 3:39 PM

Oops, double post Embarrassed

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, January 6, 2012 3:37 PM

Let me qualify my "if you have experience" comment as well so I don't offend anyone. I am not a mold designer myself. The only experience I have is talking with mold designers and have them say, "we had to do this because otherwise we'd undercut that part and it'd be trapped, " or "if we broke it down that way, we couldn't do XX." I'm just saying that very few, including myself, are qualified to say if something is over-engineered versus more pieces than we'd expect or hope for.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, January 6, 2012 3:10 PM

This reminds me of the old color arguments about Arizona, where a lot of people we repeating the same things over and over again without really knowing what they were talking about. If you have experience with plastic mold design and you say it's over-engineered, that's one thing. If you just a builder and a consumer, should you really be saying it's over-engineered, or should you be saying it's more intense than you like?

I hear that a lot, that they're over-engineered, and it's always from builders who don't like a lot of detail. That's fine, if you want simple or basic, stay away. Dragon is trying to put out the BEST detail, and that often means breaking things down into smaller pieces to avoid compromising the detail. It also means releasing kits that are, frankly, above the skill levels of some builders. I don't see that as a problem with this. If someone wanted to put out kits that had the slide molded superstructure for easier assembly but more basic details, for even MORE easy assembly, I would not have a problem with that either and would probably buy a couple if they were of ships that I was mildly interested in but not enough to want to spend a lot of effort on. Dragon as chosen to focus on detail.

You don't like having turn-wheels on your kit guns, fine. I can see the difference without them. I've seen the real guns, and the Trumpeter guns just look flat-out toy-like in comparison. I like being able to look at what looks to me like an honest to goodness miniature of the real thing. For me it's worth it to have that tiny work and extra piece on a small assembly to have something that looks correct.

The Smart kits is similar to what we hear about with the death of the US middle class. It used to be that you had some big pieces, some middle pieces, and some small pieces. You put some of the medium and smaller pieces together to build the superstructure and put the medium and large pieces together for the hull and superstructure. Now, with the smart kits the middle ground is more sparse. You have larger, more complex shapes for the main structure, but then a lot more smaller, highly-detailed pieces. Parts breakdown has shifted from the triangle to the hour glass shape.

Fit is good, but it will take time to put it all together. If you really like puttying and sanding these kits will be a disappointment because there's hardly any. There is, however, a lot more with tweezers and magnifying glasses or Optivizers unless you have inhuman vision.

 

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Harlan, Kentucky, U.S.A.
Posted by robtmelvin on Friday, January 6, 2012 12:50 PM

"Smart Kit" is Dragonspeak for "over engineered".  LOL

Just launched:  Revell 1/249 U.S.S. Buckley w/ after market PE and guns.

Building: Italieri 1/35 P.T. 596 w/ Lion Roar PE.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, January 6, 2012 12:20 PM

kettenkopf
No, just get through some builds without wondering what the instruction writer had in mind when he wrote them.

Truly good instructions shouldn't need words for more than parts or paint labeling. I should be able to look at instructions from Eduard (Czech Republic), Tamiya (Japan) as well as Dragon (China) equally well, without having to understand the native language.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    December 2011
  • From: pennsylvania
Posted by kettenkopf on Friday, January 6, 2012 12:10 PM

Tracy White

One thing I've learned via working with them is that the vast majority of them are not model builders. They're not ship specialists - they're plastic molding specialists. I can't say "move that chock five feet forward" because they don't know what a ship's chock is.

I want to point out, however, that this applies to most model companies. Look at the assembly sequence for the just-released PV-1 Ventura by Revell and you will see that they are STILL designing kits where you have to put fragile landing gear pieces in place before major structural components (nacelles, fuselage halves) are glued together and sanded.

Our help has evolved into a lot of pictograms and sketches, which really is what you want anyway when you're dealing with a visual and spatial product. But it can put those who don't have a large library of photos or ability to sketch electronically at a disadvantage.

The CAD is done, THEN they have a group or person that figures out how to break it down so that they can get good parts out of it; these two processes may actually overlap as they work on both due to revisions and corrections. Then, when they have the parts layout mostly finalized, they start working on the instructions, but of course there are revisions to the kit that need to happen, etc. It is not a sedate process at all; the test shot is built to check for issues, but they do not create the kit, send out copies for people to build and report on, and THEN do the instructions. That would cost a lot of money, to sit on that production run and store it for months at a time.

@kettenkopf: why, do you want to phone them up?

No, just get through some builds without wondering what the instruction writer had in mind when he wrote them.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, January 6, 2012 11:48 AM

One thing I've learned via working with them is that the vast majority of them are not model builders. They're not ship specialists - they're plastic molding specialists. I can't say "move that chock five feet forward" because they don't know what a ship's chock is.

I want to point out, however, that this applies to most model companies. Look at the assembly sequence for the just-released PV-1 Ventura by Revell and you will see that they are STILL designing kits where you have to put fragile landing gear pieces in place before major structural components (nacelles, fuselage halves) are glued together and sanded.

Our help has evolved into a lot of pictograms and sketches, which really is what you want anyway when you're dealing with a visual and spatial product. But it can put those who don't have a large library of photos or ability to sketch electronically at a disadvantage.

The CAD is done, THEN they have a group or person that figures out how to break it down so that they can get good parts out of it; these two processes may actually overlap as they work on both due to revisions and corrections. Then, when they have the parts layout mostly finalized, they start working on the instructions, but of course there are revisions to the kit that need to happen, etc. It is not a sedate process at all; the test shot is built to check for issues, but they do not create the kit, send out copies for people to build and report on, and THEN do the instructions. That would cost a lot of money, to sit on that production run and store it for months at a time.

@kettenkopf: why, do you want to phone them up?

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    December 2011
  • From: pennsylvania
Posted by kettenkopf on Friday, January 6, 2012 11:42 AM

[quote user="four-star"]

Tracy White:

They're the least smart part of the kit.

 

Big Smile  Fair enough!  I do often end up wondering on most kits if the person who does the instructions has even built the model!

Built the model?  I'd be happy if they knew the English good to speak.

  • Member since
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  • From: UK
Posted by four-star on Friday, January 6, 2012 10:38 AM

Tracy White

They're the least smart part of the kit.

Big Smile  Fair enough!  I do often end up wondering on most kits if the person who does the instructions has even built the model!

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, January 6, 2012 10:17 AM

No, it has nothing to do with the instructions. I've worked with them on a few kits and the instructions are always done at the end in a rush. They're the least smart part of the kit.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
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  • From: UK
Posted by four-star on Friday, January 6, 2012 7:21 AM

I had heard that it just meant the construction steps were meant to be more logical and thought through - less backtracking and unnecessary steps.  I think this is supposed to mean that higher parts count equates to extra detail as opposed to just being an overabundance of unnecessary assembly steps on simpler parts.

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Thursday, January 5, 2012 12:13 AM

... and some argue that they're not too complex. Like anything it's a matter of opinion and taste. Your mileage may vary.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 4, 2012 10:54 PM

When the term was first used it was a marketing word that was used to acknowledge that the first few kits in Dragon's "new" generation of kits had far too many parts and were unecessarily complex (some argue they still are)...moulding technology only plays a part in the term insofar as Dragon can produce some single components that in the past might have been comprised of several pieces that had to be assembled...

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, January 4, 2012 10:44 PM

Jack is correct. It's meant to highlight the more complex main parts (in terms of the moldings), which decreases work in many ways (less joints to sand and fill, less concern about destroying detail). On the opposite end, it also means they're putting finer details out on these kits, which puts it above "want to" or "have the physical ability to" for some people.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Tuesday, January 3, 2012 12:39 AM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was certain "Smart Kits" was a referral to the use of slide mold technology.  More expensive, but allows the molding process to be more detailed, to the point where some individual parts did not need to be cast separate as the technology allowed for much improved 3-d casting.

Quote from DragonModelsLtd :

"About a year ago, we moved our engineering approach away from the traditional 2D-CAD drawing method. Instead, Dragon now uses an up-to-date 3D computerized system (check out the 3D drawings that appear on the sides of kit boxes, created by this program). This advanced and specialized 3D engineering software system compiles all drawings, meaning that fit, shrinkage and material flow etc. can be simulated and calculated in advance by computer, well before the actual molding process begins. Besides this, a full 100% CAD-CAM manufacturing process has been implemented. This ensures that finished parts perfectly match our designs, and this leads to a seamless fit of parts."

regards,

Jack

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