Zvezda Black Swan 1/72

Wow!   David, you have done a fantastic job.  The rigging looks beautiful and your ratlines/shrouds are perfect.  And your color choices for the hull are just great as is the weathering.  Just the right amount.   You should be proud of yourself.  I can't wait to see her when you add sails and the running rigging.  

Great Job!

Phil

  Just great. I can't image me doing such a model,  but you certainly make it an interesting and learning experience.

Thanks!

Now that all the stays are on, I wish I'd gone with a heavier line for the shrouds...but it's no biggie...I'm sure there's always going to be "should have, would have, could have"s in modeling.

I also had some trouble keeping proper tension on the stays...drawback of plastic modeling, I guess...the masts are flexible, so any tension makes them bend, which loosens (or tightens) previously connected lines...it's a balancing act!

Got the anchors detailed last night, might get them attached this afternoon.

David_K

Thanks!

Now that all the stays are on, I wish I'd gone with a heavier line for the shrouds...

That is a great model.

Thanks, GMorrison!

This afternoon I went ahead and re-sprayed the sails....I had painted them Flat White with Tan overspray for some mottling....now they're Radome Tan with Dark Tan Mottling....BIG improvement!  They look much more understated and worn....I think they were too bright before and I didn't want the color to draw too much attention from the rest of the ship....seems like it'll be better balance of color now!

Next, I'll mask off the yards and paint them with MM Leather.

Got the foremast rails pre-rigged and installed, and attached the highest foremast sail this morning. Phew!...got a bunch of loose rigging lines to start tying on!

I followed the instructions for each belaying pin, and added an extra 10cm to each line, just in case of error, and to allow for extra length needed for knotting.

The sail paint job is actually much better looking than the pic suggests...I'll try to get better lighting on it for pics when I get finished...I'm actually really proud of how the mottling looks.  I'm optimistic of the injection-molded sails...

here's a couple pics of the spaghetti-lines!  Try to ignore the slightly-fouled shrouds, and the excess glue around the bottom of the fife rail!  Oops! 

 I'd also like to mention that the instructions for this kit have been very clear and almost entirely correct.  The pre-rigging steps are a big help, and will save me from the frustratingly tedious job of terminating lines on the rails later!

That's a brilliant model David! Each step you take makes it look even better!

Looking good David.  I love all the detail.  There's a lot to attract the eye.  And you sail looks just fine.  I can't wait to see all the sails rigged.  It will really stand out.

As for the glue on the fife rail.  Let it dry for a few days.  Then, use the edge of hobby blade and chisel into the glue at the deck and down the side of the fife rail.  You should literally trim the glue cleanly off.  Then just use some touch-up paint or a wash/drybrush to cover where the glue was.  

For the fouled shroud, it looks like it just needs to be tightened a bit, which can be taken care of once all the rigging is done.  Trust me, you'll end up tightening a bunch of lines once it's alls and done.  But the shrouds are easy to to tighten by just grabbing the whole bundle where it connects at the mast and lifting it up.  It will probably only move a millimeter or so, but it will be enough to tighten up the shrouds.  Then jsut a small drop of CA to hold it in place and you're done.

Great Job David.  Keep up the good work.  Another couple of months and you'll be thinking about your next kit!

As always, thanks for the encouraging words!  It's nice to know people are still interested in this thread!

Honestly, I'm not going to go crazy fixing every little detail, or I might actually GO crazy!  But I'm sure I'll tug the shrouds up a little bit, and touch up that rail with a little paint...I'm usually pretty conservative with cement, but sometimes things get out of hand  :)

One thing I have to admit: I'm not too savvy with tying line ends...I don't know what knots to use, and I generally don't make terminations that will allow me to tighten things up later...even though I know how stuff gets out of whack once additional tensions are applied to the parts...Often I use overhand knots, or slip knots, or maybe a clove, or I've been known to simply wrap a line around it's end-point a couple of times, hang a clip from it, and dab a bit of CA to fix it in place...cut off the extra line, and move on.  I'm kind of a slouch when it comes to rigging knots...and with the complex rigging plan of this ship, it's becoming evident that it would do me some good to learn more about the particulars...

Phil, I've gotten the topgallant foresail (?) on and rigged, and it went pretty smoothly, but now I'm looking ahead to the top sail and realizing that all the blocks attached to the mast are going to be increasingly harder to reach for running the rigging line as I work my way down!  I just made an Extenso-Needle-Threader (needle-threader attached to a 7-inch long 1/8" dowel) so I can hopefully reach in around the sails and lines, and try to avoid tearing anything apart in the process!  Do you (or anyone) have any suggestion of ways I can proceed?  With your Pearl, did you just make your way through the rigging with carefully-placed, long-reaching tools?  Or should I have done more thorough pre-rigging?  I guess I'll see what happens when I start poking around in there!  haha

Oh, and as a matter of fact, I've been looking ahead to my next project already...

I got that Corel Berlin wooden kit recently, and I'm thinking of starting on it once the Swan is done...but I have to say, the more I learn about building wooden kits (especially HECEPOBs), the more I realize they are super-tricky, and require a lot of knowledge...not to mention a bunch of tools!  So anyway, I'm reading up on wooden kit techniques, and making a list of tools to begin accumulating...we'll see how it goes...I'm sure I'll start a WIP thread for it, and my guess is it'll be one of those things where it takes a LONG time, and I'll make a ton of mistakes, and ask a bunch of Noobie questions...and maybe never even finish it!

But truthfully, I like working with plastic a lot, it's just that I can't seem to find another plastic kit that I want to build that fits my criteria of interest.  So far, the Black Swan is the best plastic sailing ship kit I've found for my taste and style. I wish some new big, high-quality, Galleon-looking ship kits would come out...but I don't think there's much chance of that happening!

Or, I guess I could go on to some other kind of modeling once I finish the Swan...I have a few other types of kits I'd be interested in building....

Dang! Long, rambly post!  

Dave

Question:

Is there any reason why I can't attach and rig the sails from lowest to highest?

The instructions show the sequence of installation from Highest to Lowest, Fore, Main, then Mizzen...but every time I have to rig up a sail that has another sail above it, then the mast-connected rigging blocks are obscured....if I reverse the order, I'll always be rigging a sail with clearance above it to reach the blocks...and the highest sail (obviously) is always accesible from above.

Looking at the upcoming steps, I can't see any reason why I shouldn't do it in reverse order, but maybe I'm  not seeing the *big* picture?

Any advice?

I hate to break the news to you, but it's only gonna get harder.  Invest in forceps.  I use two of them whenever I do any rigging.  And they especially come in handy on the Pearl (Swan).  While the sails are cool, they just get in the way.  Wait till you get to the Mains.  You will age a couple of decades trying to rig them up.  Just be patient and take your time.  You'll get it.  But definitely invest in the model forceps.  I got mine at Hobby Lobby.  But not in the models section.  I got them in cheaper from the Jewelry-making section.

And if you want a good plastic ship kit, there are several.  My favorite is the Heller Le Chebec.  It is simply fantastic, though very hard to find and expensive.  Of course Heller's HMS Victory is high on the list as is the much debated Soleil Royal.  Personally I loved the kit.  Then, of course, the list wouldn't be complete without Revell's Cutty Sark and USS Constitution.  But for these two kits, look for early releases.  Anything from the 70's and earlier will have pretty sharp molds.

Phil

Thanks, Phil!

I use a couple of long-handled tweezers, and my new long-handled needle-threader...I'll see if I can find a couple of forceps...anything to help!  I'll try to keep my patience and not get frustrated!

You're right, sails look neat, but they do get in the way, badly!  And they also seem to hide much of the detail I've worked so hard to achieve!  lol  Nonetheless, I decided when I got the kit that I would use them, and I think I'll be pleased when it's all finished!

Again, I'm really glad to be able to ask your advice, Phil!  Your Pearl is super-sweet, and I've looked at the pics of it numerous times during my build for inspiration!

Did you happen to see my question about whether I can attach the sails in reverse order (i.e., bottom to top on each mast)?? Seems like it could simplify things for me somewhat, but I might be missing some important reason for the sequence???

You know, I've looked into some of the plastic kits you mentioned...Seems like the Heller Victory is very popular (and well-regarded!), and thought the Soleil Royale LOOKS more like my style of ship, I hear it has some shortcomings, and I've heard something about the yards having NO MEANS TO ATTACH THEM?  It's madness!  And yes, of course, the Revell 1/96 Connie...it's on my Amazon Wish-List...but I just never dropped the hammer and bought it...truth is, it just isn't that appealing to me visually (I bet several people who read this will curse my blasphemy!)....But it is a cool piece of history...and I may just build it someday....

I'll look into the Heller Chebec...

My intention is always to move *up* when progressing to new projects...I tend to prefer each next endeavor to be of a higher quality, greater challenge, and not smaller in size than my previous efforts...plus, it has to be visually compelling to me.  Which is why it's going to be hard to move on from the Swan..it has very high quality molding, dramatic styling, impressive size, and it is proving to challenge and develop my skills.  Maybe something from Heller would be in order for me next....Something tells me if I build an *actual* model (based on a real ship), I may begin to find a tendency to embrace the "details and authenticities" (read: rivet-counter) club....

Do you have any experience with wooden kits, Phil?

Thanks again!

David

A couple of points.  No. 1 - Don't lose any sleep worrying about the proper knots to tie.  The truth is that in a real sailing ship very few rigging lines are actually tied to anything.  They're either seized or spliced.  (In the case of running rigging, the standing end is normally seized or spliced to some fixed point, and the running end is wrapped temporarily around a belaying pin, cleat, or other device.)  Seizing isn't particularly difficult (once you get some practice), but I don't think any sane person would try to splice a line on a model (except one on a large scale - say, 1/48 or bigger).  Most of us get away with tying square knots (or, as a sailor would call them, reef knots) where the real ship had splices.

I've been building sailing ship models for more than fifty years, and I can't recall running into a situation where I needed more than two knots:  the reef knot and the clove hitch.  In some cases (large-diameter lines that are in conspicuous places), I've made phony splices by separating the strands of the thread, wrapping them around the standing part, and securing them with white glue.  But in a model like that Zvezda kit, nobody's likely to criticize you if you tie reef knots in the lines.

No. 2 - If you want to know about the Heller Soleil Royal   (no e at the end of "royal," by the way), you'll find plenty of opinions if you do a search in this Forum on the ship's name.  I guess I'm at the head of the list of Forum members who think the kit is a piece of junk; plenty of others have aired different opinions.  But you're right on the specific point you mentioned:  the kit provides no means of attaching the yards to the masts.  Neither does the Heller Victory, but that kit is, in my opinion, so good in so many other ways as to compensate for that flaw (and several others).  Fortunately, making a set of scale parrels (the gadgets that hold the yards to the masts in the real ship) is pretty easy.

One of my biggest peeves with both those Heller kits is that the blocks and deadeyes in the box are, to all intents and purposes, unusable.  That isn't entirely Heller's fault; the injection-molding process can't produce a block or deadeye with holes through it and a groove around it.  (I find it interesting that Zvezda has come up with a way around the problem, at least for deadeyes:  mold them in halves.)  If you want to make a serious, reasonably accurate scale model out of either of those two kits, you almost have to either make the deadeyes and blocks from scratch or buy aftermarket replacements.  In other words, you spend well over a hundred dollars on the kit, throw out almost a thousand pieces of it, and spend a couple of hundred bucks on aftermarket parts.  I am, by lots of people's standards (including my wife's), pretty extravagant when it comes to spending money on my hobby, but that's just too much for me.

David_K

Is there any reason why I can't attach and rig the sails from lowest to highest?

Looking at the upcoming steps, I can't see any reason why I shouldn't do it in reverse order, but maybe I'm  not seeing the *big* picture?

:Like everything else in modeling, not, there is no reason for you to not use the technique that works best for use.

I know I've stopped and sketched a zillion different adjustable fixtures for rigging.  (Basic idea is a base on locking castors with two ends fitted up for adjustable shelf pegs, and a couple of arm-rest bars across the top.  Then, just adjust the self up to bring the rigged area up to about the best height to work from from one's chair.)  Instead, I just pile up boxes, books, etc. and do that instead.

I also have a tendency to rig 'backwards" from the belaying point to the working end.  Which is rather how Zvesda has set this kit up.

To each their own, and all the better for it.

Thanks, you guys!

Jtilley, just to clarify: I'm not too concerned about criticism for using the wrong knots, but it's more that I don't know what is a good way to terminate a line so that I can keep proper (and adjustable?) tension on it?  I find myself pulling the free end of a line to get tension, then when I try to tie it off, the tension is lost during the "knotting process"....I'll look into the reef knot....does it help with maintaining tension while cinching the knot?  Or is there some other reason I have trouble keeping my lines at the tension I want?

Also, I really appreciate the input regarding your experiences with kits; it definitely helps me when making considerations for future projects!  I do feel like if I move on to another plastic kit, I may lean toward the Heller Victory (but you know me, as of yet I have no strong impetus to build a *serious* model- wonky rigging blocks be damned!)...it has a reputation as a quality kit, it would definitely challenge my fledgling skills, and it's a beautiful subject.  But that Chebec is interesting, too....things to consider.

Capnmac...I like the idea of using some sort of scaffold to support my elbows while rigging...especially for upper-mast stuff!

Again, I may need to clarify about my question:  What I'm wondering is whether there's any reason to rig the topgallant, then the topsail, then mainsail (in that order) on each mast.  Or if it's perfectly fine to rig the mainsail first, then move up to the topsail, and then the topgallant?  It's true, all the lines are attached to pinrails in advance, and they are meant to be rigged from there to their upper end-points, but I'm more concerned with the placement order of the sails.  The instructions show the sequence of sail attachment as starting with the upper sail for each mast, then attaching and rigging the one below it, et cetera.  Maybe it's hard to explain clearly, but I'll try:  :)

At each crosstree (or masttop?) of a mast, there are a cluster of rigging blocks that I have previously tied on, so that rigging line can be run through them after each sail is placed.  When I attached the topgallant foresail, everything went smoothly, and I was able to reach the crosstree rigging blocks for that sail and rig it just fine (the blocks for each sail are slightly above/just behind the sail to be rigged.

Now that the topgallant foresail is in place, my next step is to attach the topsail below it, and rig that one. However, now the lower part of the topgallant sail is in the way of the rigging blocks for the topsail, so it's going to be exceedingly hard to reach in there and manipulate those blocks to run line through them.  So I figured if I just started with the lower sail first, and rigged it up, I would be able to access the crosstree blocks from above without as much issue, and when I get to the highest sail for each mast, I'll STILL be able to access the blocks for that last sail because there will never be a sail above it blocking my access....

Sheesh, does that make any sense, or have I degraded into a blathering madman?  haha

I can't seem to forecast any pitfalls of attaching/rigging the sails in reverse order (main-top-topgallant), so I'm going to try it out...it could save me a TON of headache for the remaining masts.  Or I could find out halfway through that I needed to keep the sequencing intact or X won't line up with Y or Z later....

I'll post my findings...it could make a very big difference.

Dave

David

 Just put the ruddy sails on from bottom to top of the mast; especially if that makes the most sense to you.

Geesh I'm getting impatient to see the next pictures of your progress 

================================================================

seriously: It's exciting to see the excellent work to date  so don't rush in until your comfortable.

David, you almost certainly already know how to tie the reef knot.  It's the one everybody instinctively ties; landlubbers call it the square knot.

No, it won't be easy to adjust.  Neither will any other knot you're likely to use in a ship's rigging.  (The slip knot is adjustable, but if you think about it you'll see that its "slipperiness" doesn't help in most rigging situations.)  Lines attached to belaying pins or cleats by winding a figure 8 around them can be adjusted if you're careful.  (When you're taking the last turn around the top of the belaying pin, tuck the hauling end under the standing part.  That's how the sailors did it.  By loosening the loop over the top of the belaying pin you can cast the line loose and adjust it to your heart's content.)  But in many cases there's just no escape from getting the tension on the line right in the first place.  (This is one of those instances in which working with a wood model is easier than working with a plastic one.  Wood spars, unless they're very small - and made out of an inappropriate wood - don't bend as easily as plastic ones.)

Thanks, John! I looked it up, and it is a familiar knot....tell me, what are some examples of a good place to use a reef (square) knot on a model ship?

I have to say, it was going to drive me crazy trying to figure out a way to tie knots that could be adjusted later!  I was thinking that everybody else knew something I didn't, and that I was doing things the hard way!  I suppose there are instances where it's possible to make some adjustment, but I seem to be getting along alright just tying a line and moving on.

And yes, I'm putting the sails on in reverse order from what the instructions indicate.  On one hand, it's more difficult going bottom to top, because there will be many previously-run lines in the way of the next sail's rigging...but on the other hand (and more of a pain, in my opinion) not being able to reach the rigging blocks because of an obstructive sail is a serious roadblock!  I can naviagte through a bunch of run lines, but I think trying to sheave through rigging blocks that I can barely see or reach will cause a lot more problems (and headaches!)....

I'll keep the updates coming...hopefully this is one of those times where I can help a future builder of this kit to consider choosing a different way (like the I 22 gunport pegs from before!), one that may make things easier...OR, maybe my attempt will end in disaster!!! Either way....

I attached the main foresail last night, but I haven't rigged it up yet.  I found that trying to keep the sail square and plumb to the hull was kind of tricky, so I made a couple of rigs to hold it in position while the cement dried last night:

I basically took two lengths of line, tied a loop onto the end of each, and lasso'ed them over each end of the yard...then I draped the free end of each line back and over the crosstree of the main mast behind it, with a binder clip attached to each one.  The weight of the clips held the ends of the sail where I wanted, and I could adjust the left-or-right of the sail by using the clips as counterweights.  using a ruler, I checked that everything was square (I actually had to hang another clip from one side of the sail to keep it level, it wanted to tilt to starboard) and let it dry overnight.  Worked like a charm!  I still have to put one sail on the foremast that will be obscured by the topgallant sail that I did first, so that will be a pain, but hopefully it'll be the only one I have to do that way!

Well, I personally use the reef knot for everything except ratlines.  I think most other sailing ship modelers do the same.

The one potential drawback to the reef knot (or square knot) is that if you don't watch what you're doing, you can make the last crossover of the lines backwards.  (In other words, you can put the wrong line in front of the other.)  The result will be the infamous "granny knot," which won't hold.

Ahhhh, I think I'm beginning to understand...the first part of the knot is kinda like an overhand knot, which holds a little bit of tension, then the knot is *locked* by the second crossover.  Seems like it would work well to keep tension applied while finishing the knot.

Eureka!

Here's a website that shows (complete with animation) how to do it:  www.google.com/imgres  .  The same knot can be used to tie both ends of a line around an object (e.g., an eyebolt or a spar) or to tie two lines together.

If you don't take the second "turn" to make a square/reef knot, you'll have a half hitch, which won't hold.

The slip knot (at least as I learned to tie it in the Cub Scouts) is really just a reef knot with a loop added to it.

That's a COOL web site.  I never would known such a site existed.  Thanks for the tip.

"To tie both ends of a line together"

Now that's where I get confused....I can sit here with a piece of string and tie the ends of it together to make a reef knot that looks and performs exactly like a reef knot should....but when I'm trying to terminate a line on a ship, I'm often working with just ONE free end (securing a line end around a mast, for example).  Maybe there's some simple point I'm not getting? 

Say you're tying a knot around a mast.  Bring the line around, say, the bottom of the yard and pull up.  Now the line has two parts - the standing part and the hauling part.  Tie the two parts together with a reef knot and snip off the hauling end (preferably after putting a tiny drop of white glue on it and letting the glue dry).  You've just used the reef knot to tie a line to a mast.

I strongly suspect that's the way you've been doing it, instinctively.

Quite right, John!  I never thought of it as a reef knot, but I suppose I do use it often!  Thanks!

And let me say that I appreciate your patience with someone who's still new to the scene!

For one such as yourself, who has been building ships for 50+ years, it must get tiresome to hear the same old questions so many times from neophytes.  The guidance of an experienced hand is vastly important, and should be valued for many reasons.

So, thanks to you and the other members for all your support and encouragement!

I tied most of the rigging for the fore mainsail last night, and it came out pretty well.

After I get the topsail on, I still plan to attach the sails in order from lowest to highest (on the following masts)...but I realized last night that, since most of the lines have been belayed and are ready to run up from the rails, there's no reason why I couldn't pass the appropriate lines through their rigging blocks on the mast before I even put the sails on!  That would help alleviate much of difficulty of accessing those blocks during the rigging process, even IF one were to attach the sails in the prescribed order (top to bottom).  In fact, regardless of the order of sail attachment, I think running many of the rigging lines up through the blocks is a good idea!  Sure, it makes for a temporary mess (there are lines all over the place, halfway run!), but soon every line has a known purpose, and the confusion is lessened.

Anyway, here's a pic...it doesn't show much, and it's kind of grainy (phone picture)...

One more thing:  A helpful hint for assembly....the instructions call out each of the lines as they are belayed to the rails below each mast, and each line is designated with an alphanumeric code, and a length in CM.  A few steps later, during the rigging of those lines, some of the codes do not match up with the previously-indicated positions on the railing.  so be careful, future builder of this kit, and double-check your line placement.  I added 10 CM to each line when belaying, and the instructions give a generous length callout for each one, so I didn' have any trouble with too-short of lines....

Can't belive I'm saying this (bein' a plastic air craft guy) But, this is getting exciting

I agree, Duster!  

I got the topsail attached last night, after running all the remaining foremast lines through their blocks....hopefully tonight I can get all those *loose ends* tied off (seriously, right now the ship looks like a bowl of spaghetti noodles was dumped over it!), and the foremast will be DONE!

I may have said it before, but this kit is an order of magnitude more complaex than my two previous efforts!  

I have 3 words to describe the rigging process:  Pain-Stake-Ing!

There are measures of patience, chaos, and ultimately, satisfaction....but mostly chaos!  

I can totally agree with you.  Rigging can be frustrating, painstaking and maddening.  But I also find it completely relaxing and rewarding.

Beautiful work.  The rigging and sails are really making the whole picture very nice.  You're doing great.  Good Stuff.

Phil

Thanks, Phil!

Yeah, the intensity of rigging is totally worth it in the end!  I find myself walking over to the shelf to admire it all the time!  

Got the foremast topsail finished after work today, and that means the foremast is COMPLETE! Yay!

Don't know if I'll get much time to work on it over the weekend, but next up is to *belay* lines on the next set of rails, put them on, and get started on the mainmast sails!  I like the technique of runing all the lines through their blocks before the sails go on...it makes for a much easier time!  And yes, I do expect it to get crowded in there!  But the front of the ship looks great!  I'll try to get a couple more pictures up of the current state in a day or two....

Figure it'll be done in a few weeks...Started on it exactly 4 months ago today...

Figured I would post some update on my progress...

So far the Fore-and-Mainmasts are rigged, complete with sails....got the pinrails on the mizzenmast, but no sails yet.  Tonight I'm planning to rig up the spritsails (?) which look to be a fun challenge because of all the lines already run up by the bowsprit....Next, I'll prep the sails for the Mizzen, and get them on and rigged...I'm getting pretty close to the end now.

I will mention that deviating from the instructions for the sail/rigging sequence has been a good idea.  I chose to install the pre-rigged rails at the base of the masts, then run all the lines through the blocks that attach closely to each mast (taking care to not let them cross anywhere!), then working my way from attaching the lowest sail then proceeding upward, completing more of the rigging for each sail as I progress...once all sails for a mast are on, the last lines I tie are the ones at the bottom of each sail that hold the lower edge forward or backward, and then the lines that connect each sail to the one below it.  (Sorry, I don't know all the names for all the lines yet!) ...the process worked well, and I didn't have a lot of trouble reaching the blocks after the sails were on, because I'd already completed all the rigging *close to the masts* before the sails went on!

Once I finish rigging the sails, I have to decide what to do about the rear lanterns (I'll probably try to assemble and paint them, and if they look okay, I'll attach them---LAST, so they aren't likely to get knocked off!)...then some final work with the cradle....got some gold touch-up to do, and still need to attach the mermaid figures...then a quick once-over for some highlighting and final touch-up, and she's gonna be done!  I think it will look really nice!

I'll post several pics of the finished product, but you'll have to wait until then!  Figure a week or so and I'll be finished!