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Revell 1/90 Nina Completed

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  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, December 24, 2012 1:09 PM

Yeah, my boss is a very generous lady...that's only the half of it!

Looking good, Steve!  I'm actually going over some previous posts right now, gathering up some courage/ideas for putting oils on my SM deck!  As I type this, the parts and paints are before me!

Thanks again for the inspiration!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, December 24, 2012 1:11 PM

Also, nice work on the rope ladder!  I'm totally ditching the plastic one that came with my SM and making a *real* one!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, December 26, 2012 10:16 PM

Thanks for the kudos Dave.  You might want to start a spare parts box, it has come in handy.  The rope ladder in the Imai kit is really nice and it could go on something else down the road.  

I rigged the cannon last night after I got the boys in bed.  I'll post some pictures tomorrow.  I was making eye bolts and hooks for the rigging today and blackening it with Blacken' It from MicroMark.  It really makes them look good.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, December 28, 2012 12:55 AM

Here's another photo of the rope ladder I built.

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 28, 2012 2:56 PM

Wow! I am amazed by your technique!  I once had all three kits by Revell (the 500th Anniversary set) but sold them (I believe to Vagabond Astronomer but am not sure) because I was so turned off by the molded-on sacks and coiled ropes that I did not really see their possibilities.  You are doing a magnificent job!

Bill

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, December 28, 2012 11:59 PM

Thanks Bill!  I am honored that you like my work.  In all honesty, I felt the same way about the molded parts but I have become more attached with these kits the more I work on them.  I also want to finish these three since they were the last models my younger brother gave to me before he passed away earlier this year.

Thanks again Bill,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, December 29, 2012 8:01 AM

Steve,

I am sorry to hear about your brother.  Your work on these ships is really doing him honor!

Bill

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:16 PM

Thanks Bill.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:19 PM

Working on the guns for the Nina

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Monday, December 31, 2012 8:44 AM

@docidle: I've been following your build with much interest, partly to learn from your approach.

Re. the guns, I couldn't help but notice that the placement of the hatch relative to the guns or of the guns relative to the hatch would prevent the guns from recoiling and/or being reloaded.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, December 31, 2012 6:42 PM

Thanks for following the build vonBerlichingen although I can't say my approach is everything it could be.  I'm just getting back into modeling after 40 years so I feel I am learning everything for the first time; as well as this is only my third or fourth build.

I agree that the cannons are a "bit" cramped at their current location, although that is where the Revell directions place them.  I am not sure where Heller places the cannons, but I believe that they were light enough so the crew could move them about.  Therefore I am going to say that they are presently only stowed there.

Another problem with that hatch is that it is in the way of the middle mast being footed on the keel.  It could be plausible for the mast to being footed on the quarterdeck with the stays supporting it but I think they would be better supported on the keel.  At this point I am not going to remove the hatch for all it's faults since it would entail a fair amount of deconstruction.

If I decide to redo that area are there any other issues you can see?  I really appreciate the input!

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 31, 2012 11:17 PM

I did some digging about gun recoil in the context of another thread a few years back.  Some reading in good sources established that early naval guns, as late as the early seventeenth century, quite frequently were set up so they couldn't recoil.

Remember that these guns were generally pretty small by the standards of later centuries.  Any gun will try to jump backward when it's fired.  (Sir Isaac Newton figured that one out - or rather codified a principle that plenty of other people had noticed earlier.)  I can remember watching a Lisle gun (a tiny cannon used to fire lines from a beach to a grounded ship) being demonstrated at Mystic Seaport.  The barrel wasn't more than a foot long.  But when it was fired it emitted an almighty bang, and jumped back - in a split second - six or eight feet.

We're used to the setup common in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries:  a heavy "breeching line" that lets the gun recoil several feet before stopping it.  But the physics involved mean that the breeching line (or any other device set up to stop the recoil) is going to be subjected to a huge amount of force - whether it stops it on the instant of the explosion or a fraction of a second later.  If a 32-pounder on board H.M.S. Victory didn't have a breeching line it would blow itself out the other side of the ship; the rope has to take almost as much strain as it would if it actually lashed the gun up against the bulwark.  (I'm no physicist, but it seems to me that a breeching line that starts out slack might actually have to be stronger than one that held the gun against the bulwark.  The gun must build up momentum as it recoils.)  

In fact, it appears that the genesis of the breeching line may have been the idea of making the gun "run itself in," so it could be cleaned and reloaded more easily.  There are lots of contemporary pictures, from as late as the mid-seventeenth century, showing gunners leaning over the bulwarks to load the guns - or even crawling out along the gun barrels carrying ramrods.  (There's a job I wouldn't want.)

Bottom line:  it doesn't seem at all unlikely that, in 1492, a gun would be mounted on a strip of deck that wasn't wide enough for the gun to recoil.  If I were building a model of a ship from that period, I'd set the breeching lines as tight as possible, so the guns simply couldn't move. 

These are shaping up to be two first-rate models.  It wouldn't be awfully difficult to rerig the breeching lines - but if Docidle doesn't feel like doing it, I won't blame him.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Tuesday, January 1, 2013 12:15 AM

Thanks John for the input!  I always appreciate it.  I agree with vB that the way I set the guns up they would be knocking the hatch apart..... Which would aliviate the issue of the mast and provide more room for the guns at the same time!

Anyway, I am going to try and tighten up the breaching line, but it won't be too easy since I superglued the carriages to the deck.  I'll figure something out.  I wish I had the Anatomy of the Ship book on Columbus' ships, although I am not sure if it would show the rigging of the guns. I tried to find it at the library, but no luck.  Are there any other books that you would suggest for research?

A quick question to the group, the guns on the Nina and Pinta are much larger than the ones on the Santa Maria, were the ones on the Santa Maria a smaller caliber?  Also, would these cannons be considered culverins?

Thanks again,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Tuesday, January 1, 2013 4:00 AM

To expand on the guns a bit, there is a good possibility that these could have been Venetian guns which were breach-loaders.  These guns were firing stone balls around 25-30mm in diameter.  

This suited the metallurgy and foundry-making of the time, too.  It's much easier to hammer a barrel around a mandrel than to bore a casting or forging out.  Using a mandrel also allows forging reinforcing bands around the barrel, too.  Then the breach can be formed from a stout casting, but one short  enough to sand cast the chamber in the mould, rather than having to machine out the chamber.

This era was also one with charges that ran 1-2 x shot weight due to the quality of the powder.  And to allow for the loose "windage" required firing stone shot.  

The breach would be a closed tube of heavy dimension, with a serious flange fitting under the last barrel band.  the breach would be loaded, then set in place in the barrel with wedges driven between the aft end of the breach and its gun mount.  

Compared to an 18th century 3 or 4 pounder cannon, it would be a paltry and weak thing.  But, compared to the other sea-going cannons, of its time, more than enough.  Particularly since such guns were for use against raiders and pirates.  "Regular" navies closed to contact and used the force of armed mean to board enemies.

As black powder became more chemically consistent, and the purity of the ingredients stabilized, and the infrastructure to cast iron and specialty shot became more common, as simple slip joint became impractical to use in ship-board cannon.  Land-based practice also changed.  Cannon were no longer semi-fixed siege weapons, but mobile items that were expected to move on recoil.  Tactically, this offered an advantage that our learned professor alluded to--a recoiling muzzle-loader could be reloaded from within the (relative) safety of the hull.

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:49 AM

Yes, I was just about to post that breech-loading guns would make the limited ability to run them in a non-issue!

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:34 PM

Thanks for the input gentleman.  That is one of the things I like about posting here;  you learn a bit of naval history.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Thursday, January 3, 2013 1:25 AM

I'd feel a lot smarter if I could find a slightly definitive reference that would say whether maritime Spanish cannon would be brass, bronze, or iron.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, January 4, 2013 11:42 PM

I know what you mean Cap'n.  If you do find out, please let me know.  I would hazard a guess that they were either brass or bronze due to the fact that iron would rust and create a hazard.  Although they could have been iron, which I believe would be cheaper to produce than the other metals at the time.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, January 4, 2013 11:46 PM

I wasn't able to shorten the recoil lines so it's back to square one on the cannon.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, January 5, 2013 1:38 AM

Spent some time looking this up. I would say wrought iron barrels forged with bands. On a sled like affair. Breech loader. No breeching ropes or other rigging as the thing was not set up or crewed for sustained fire.

That hatch has to go in order to step your mast and give the guns room to move around.

Stone shot.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, January 6, 2013 2:39 PM

Thanks GM for the information on the guns.  However, it is going to be tough lopping off that hatch now.  Let me think about it for a bit.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, January 6, 2013 3:04 PM

Normally, I wouldn't chime in about this kind of stuff, since I'm not the type to be too concerned about scale and inaccuracy (remember, I'm the guy who built the Black Swan with its mast running through the capstan!)...but it does seem like the cannon are really big...it's probably why there's so little room between the hatch and the carriage...whether or not you want to address it is your business, Steve...but it's just an observation on my part... :)

I think the build looks SWEET so far!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Tuesday, January 8, 2013 12:41 AM

Thanks Dave, I agree that the cannon do seem a bit on the large side, especially compared to the SM's cannons.  At this point I am going to go ahead and use them as is, although I wish I had cut the aft hatch off now.

 I have a feeling that I will revisit the Nina and Pinta at some future point with the Heller kits and some brass culverins from JB Models and some Morope along with some other size rope from another European dealer.  I have the Rope Walk from Model Expo, but haven't tried to figure out how to use it.  From what I have seen it isn't too difficult, but like other things in sailing ship modeling, there is a steep learning curve I haven't the heart right now to conquer.

Thanks again,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, January 9, 2013 8:40 AM

BTW, I'm not in love with my SM cannons, either....the carriages are very smooth and devoid of any texture...and the barrels have no hole in the end, they just look a little funky sticking out of the ports...I've considered drilling them out, but that could end in disaster!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 9, 2013 4:48 PM

When I start on the Imai Santa Maria I am going to use brass culverins from JBModels.eu and Morope for my rigging.  I looked at the guns for the SM and they're the same size per scale as the Revell cannon which makes me wonder why the cannon for the Nina and Pinta are so much larger.

I drill all my cannon as a matter of as course, non drilled guns just look dorky, yes I actually said dorky..... Anyway, I bought the pin vise and drill set from Model Expo which has drills from .60 to .80.  One the best purchases I made from them.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, January 9, 2013 8:23 PM

Oooh, good tip...I'll have to add that pin vise set to my shopping list...I have a small pin vise with only 3 small sizes...definitely not big enough for the barrels...

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, January 13, 2013 7:47 PM

Alright after some thinking and checking out different options I have decided to keep the offending hatch.  It's going to a bit crowded in the aft section but I'm sure the sailors will learn to make due.

The first picture is fitting the gun carriages after taking them apart.  The pictures after that will be the  completed guns with lashings and eyebolts inserted on the frame.  I am going to string the line through the eyebolts and tie off the forward side.

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by vonBerlichingen on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 6:23 PM

The cannon are looking good, although you may want to redo the rear lashing, and lash forward of the handle. As it is, you have lashed-down the removeable breech, which, when removed, looks like a heavy metal mug...

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 4:55 PM

Thanks for letting me know.  I removed them, but I wish I had some reference material.  I search the internet but came up with some photos and explanations but nothing showing the lashing.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:26 PM

Here are the cannon back in place and without the offending lashing; thanks for the heads up vonB!.  I will coil the ropes when I am getting closer to putting the quaterdeck on.

Steve

 

This is the way they looked before removing the rearmost lashing, which would have made loading the cannon really hard if not impossible.

       

 

 

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