Next Ship Kit??? Advice?

David...go fer the one you're ready and excited about.

Rob

None of these would be a bad choice - though both the Trumpeter ones have gotten some strongly negative reviews.  The cog (in any of the forms in which it's been marketed) strikes me as an excellent kit.  (Caveat - I haven't bought one.  But I've seen lots of photos on the web.)  You've already seen that Zvezda has what it takes to make a beautiful plastic ship kit.  And the great thing about the cog is that it has just enough rigging to be interesting, without being so time-consuming.  It would respond beautifully to your wood-grain techniques.  

If you have an interest in motor racing, consider a racing boat.  Not a lot to choose from, but there have been some.  There was the old Monogram outboard hydro, a couple of Unlimited hydros, and one or two offshore boats.

Thanks, guys!

Yeah, I'm already reading through the cog's instructions, considering paint schemes, etc....I guess it's more or less decided!  Eventually, I'll build them all, but sometimes it's hard to decide which one should be next!  But then I was reading Landstrom's The Ship the other night, and I got to the section about cogs...it seemed like a sign, so I figure I better do it!  :)  Not that I'm superstitious....

I'm considering making a few *upgrades* to it, such as finding a few figures (I heard 28mm was a decent scale figure for this kit, if I can find some in the style that seems appropriate?), maybe replacing the plastic block/heart/lanyards with wooden ones that I can reeve myself, and possibly making a wooden base with pedestals instead of the plastic cradle Zvezda likes to use...but we'll see how ambitious I actually get!

cs.finescale.com/.../150254.aspx

Oh, yeah...Steve's work on that Kogge was amazing!

BTW, anyone know where I can find wooden hearts with 3 holes for lanyards??  Model Expo only has hearts with a single hole...If push comes to shove, I guess I can just use regular round deadeyes...

Might check the Bluejacket catalog--certainly, those will not be wood, but britannia metal is very nice to work with, and very nice detail

Alternately, you take a stick of a good material--box, alder, lime, apple ,etc.--of a good length.  You'll want it to be (number of hearts) x (scale thickness) x 1.5 plus a bit to hold on to.  Shape this to the outside profile--taking a round file to the edge of a stout bit of brass would make a good scraper.  

You now have a choice--a prototype heart has a groove in its circumference for either the shroud or the strop to set in.  With a small round swiss file you could place that groove around the blank.  

Then slice off hearts a bit thicker than needed (so you can sand the cutting lines out).  

You'll need another jig with a drilling pattern to bore the three holes through.

Which is a great deal of work--but, you'll have "ownership" of it all.

It appears ships of the 14th~15th centuries were less ornate then later centuries.........Not a lot of color..cept on the sail.

An this.

CapnMac-

Man, making my own hearts SOUNDS like a big deal....but I think it might be do-able, even for someone of my limited (read: none) woodworking experience...and the beauty of it is that the ship only needs 12 hearts of one size, then 2 of a larger size (for the stay), so it wouldn't take too much time to give it a whirl...I have some files, a razor saw/miter, pin vise, and a scroll saw...I bet I could pull it off...making them identical would be the challenge, but like so many things (esp. rigging), after one or two tries it would likely become easier...

Well, nothing like learning new skills...I'll try it out!

Rob-

Good point about the *plainness* of the color schemes...love those pics, I'll use them for reference.  My plan is to go mostly "wooden" in color, except for a little red for the castles, and probably a darker hull color for below the waterline...most of my builds so far have not had a *coated* lower hull, but I feel I should for this one...I'm open to suggestions for a color of lower hull coating...seems like I've seen them in black-ish colors, or even cream-ish colors...??

Also, and this might annoy a few people (lol)...I'm probably going to use the injected molded sail from the kit...Zvezda has a knack for putting a really sweet texture and effect to their molded sails, and I liked the ones on my Black Swan...any other manufacturer, and I wouldn't consider it.

BTW, someday I'll need to open a discussion about how to use vacuum-formed sails that look good...there must be a way!

I know lots of people prefer furled or bare yards (and so do I most times), but sometimes having sails can make it look *fuller*, somehow...and yes, molded/formed sails give the false look of wind (JTilley!), but I don't mind so much, sometimes...DEPENDING on the model.  I haven't really seen set cloth sails that I liked very much...but they're awesome for furling.

John-

Did you make a mention of some Trumpeter kits that people dislike?  I know Trumpeter made a Mayflower that was wonky in scale, which is why I chose to go with the ERTL/Imai version instead...is there some relationship to the aforementioned kits with Trumpeter??  Inquiring minds want to know!

Sorry for the ramble, guys...!

Hope everyone's having a swell weekend!

Thanks!

Blue Jacket.com, castyouranchor.com sell the old(heart) style of deadeyes.

How long does it take to dry using artist oils as your detail antique wash?

I use India ink diluted in Isopropol alcohol.  I goes on fast..finds crack and evaporates in minutes..leaving awesome detail.  You can reapply till you find your desired depth of weathering.

Rob

If you plan on making your own deadeyes..try forming the triangular shap first from round or square stock...creating a long triangle...then drill three holes in the end about 1/2".  Cut several blocks from the master..leaving just enough hole left for you to redrill another 1/2".  This assures your holes are all aligned and even with each and every block.  Sand and trim as needed.

Easy Peasy.

Rob

Rob-

Thanks for the tips!

Artist Oil wash takes awhile to dry...I usually apply it and let it dry overnight...though a few hours is probably plenty, it depends on how big the part is, and how much I use...once the turpenoid evaporates, the paint is more or less dry.

Using the artist oils straight from the tube for dramatic coloring/weathering, that takes several days to fully dry.  I usually employ both methods... the black wash for texture and *crevices*, straight paint for coloring/blending.

I just got back from the Hobby Shop, picked up some paints for the kogge (MM acrylics), and then I decided to stop at the Art Store and got some India Ink, too...I'll give it a try as a wash.  My biggest issue with oil paint wash is the little granules that can be seen once it dries...hopefully ink leaves a finer *shadow* effect??  Do you use 100% alcohol, or the watered-down kind from a typical drugstore?

Next time I go to Lowe's, I'll see if I can find some suitable wood to try out the homemade hearts...if it gives too much trouble, I may pick some up from one of the sites you guys mentioned...but I think I can make them, as long as I have proper tools....kinda wish I had a belt/disc sander for shaping the long piece into a triangle...we'll see what I can come up with.  I might start a thread for making hearts/deadeyes, if I can get it right.

In answer to Dave's earlier query - the Trumpeter Mayflower has gotten several bad reviews.  I have the impression that it was originally issued by some other Chinese company; it was one of the first ships Trumpeter put on the U.S. market.  I don't think I've seen a review of the Trumpeter Golden Hind, but I have a feeling it may have a similar pedigree.

I'm not aware of any connection between Trumpeter and Imai.  Every Imai sailing ship kit I've encountered has been a beauty (though I have a couple of big reservations about the Greek and Roman warships).  If you're interested in the Golden Hind, I can strongly recommend the old Revell 1/96 kit.  Its accuracy has been called into some question recently, but so little is known about the prototype that I'm satisfied with Revell's interpretation of it.

Bluejacket does indeed offer cast britannia metal "old style" deadeyes, in several sizes.  Go to www.bluejacketinc.com, then click on "Fittings," then click on "Blocks and Deadeyes."  I'm a big fan of Bluejacket blocks and deadeyes.  In terms of scale appearance they're a level above the wood ones one normally sees - and several levels above the styrene ones that come in Revell kits.  I think they'd work well with Dave's painting style if they were first given a coat of grey metal primer.

On the other hand, I just looked at some photos of the Zvezda/Revell kogge (or cog) kit.  (Just google "Revell Kogge," then click on "Images.")  It appears that the shroud and lanyards are in the form of two parts each, inner and outer.  The plastic "rope" lanyards don't look bad as such things go, but it looks to me like they'd be very easy to replace with real thread.  Just shave the plastic "ropes" off and drill holes in the appropriate places.

If your local Lowe's is anything like mine, the only wood you'll find there that might work for making deadeyes is poplar.  (The two stores here in Greenville also stock pine and oak, but either of those would be awful for that purpose.)  You might take a look at the little samples in the hardwood floor department, though.  In our Lowe's those little pieces cost 25 cents apiece.  Some of them are one species of wood all the way through (good); others are "engineered" from thin layers of several species (not so good - for this purpose).  I've gotten pretty familiar with this game recently because we're about to have a hardwood (walnut) floor installed upstairs.  Please, Lord,  let me never go through that experience again.

One of the great features of this kind of ship as a modeling subject, as Dave has noted, is that it only has three shrouds on each side of each mast.  That means there are only a dozen deadeyes.  So Bluejacket ones wouldn't break the bank, and my guess is that modifying all twelve of the kit deadeyes would take less than an hour.

John-

Thanks for the info...

Couple of points-

Yes, I love Imai kits!  I have several in the stash, and I'm looking forward to each one...

Yes, the Zvezda deadeyes are very well-done, compared to anything I've seen by any other plastic manufacturer (seconded by Imai's on the Santa Maria)...Zvezda has a way of getting their blocks and deadeyes so closely-detailed, they have fine strops, molded seizing, and even blocks with holes and grooves around them...it's amazing!  And on the Black Swan, they did produce the deadeye/lanyards of two pieces (inner and outer) which made for easy seizing of a shroud around/between the deadeye grooves (instead of attaching their molded ratlines/shrouds?!?)...but, the Kogge (at least Zvezda's, though I'm guessing the Revell version is the same) has the deadeye/lanyard molded in only one piece...still, they look pretty good...but after seeing the difference between the Swan (I used their molded lanyards) and my Santa Maria (rope lanyards) the difference is enough to compel me.  And yes, I could probably modify the molded ones and remove the plastic to make room for actual line....BUT, I looked at the Bluejacket website...I like the way their stuff looks.

So, change of plans:

I'm going to order some Britannia hearts from Bluejacket and try them out.  I may pick up some wood stock and mess around with homemade fittings as a side project, but I want to try out the Bluejacket stuff.

So, I do have a question...is there a difference between an UPPER heart, and a LOWER heart?  Seems like one is just the upside-down version of the other?  If I only need 12, and they sell them in packs of 12...I'd rather just get 12 uppers and use them, unless it makes a difference to have both?  Keeping in mind that on the Kogge, there is no chainplate on the lower heart anyway, it just has a rope that holds it to a wale-hook (?)

Also, I'm calling Model Expo tomorrow, to stock up on some rigging line....

Is their manila-hemp line good stuff?  the tan-colored stuff says manila-hemp...I think I'll pick up several 10yd packs of the .008", .018" and .028", if it's good stuff, esp. compared to kit-supplied line...

I ordered some hemp (tan) Corel line from them before, but I found that stuff to be lame.  Another misfire by the HECEPOB Industry, I guess!

Back to the yardwork!

:)

Yeah, I use my felt sander to make the wood triangle sided polls to cut blocks from.

I use pure isopropal  alcohol...not the green kind..it's clear...and then all you do is buy a small spray bottle(I like to use a paint brush myself..but for larger areas spray is fine).  Let it run like crazy into the cracks..you do have to control it by moving the part around in your hand.....and it then evaporates and its done.  A slight paint on and the area is weathered...more or a second coat as things darken up.  If you use several drops of India ink. to the dilution...you effect will be much darker.  Experiment.  I used this method on all my HO train layouts and rolling stock.

You can also lay the wood dowel down on sand paper and get the same result...experiment and see what works well for you.  Start off with a smaller piece say 2" long and try that for starters.

Good luck..and post pics of your tries and work..if you can.

Rob

The difference between "upper" and "lower" deadeyes has to do with the holes for the lanyards.  On a lower deadeye, each whole, on both sides of the deadeye, has a vertical groove running down from it, so the lanyard's turning over in the hole is eased a bit.  On an upper deadeye, one hole  has the groove only on the outboard face of the deadeye.  On the inboard face, the hole is just a hole, with no groove.  The lanyard starts by going through that hole; the knot at the end of the lanyard bears against the flat surface of the deadeye.

It's a pretty subtle detail; it shows up pretty clearly in the drawings on the Bluejacket catalog page.  Whether it's worth worrying about on 1/72 scale is up to the builder.  If you bought a dozen upper "old style" deadeyes, it wouldn't be too difficult to file the missing grooves (six times), thereby creating the lower ones.  And if you just ignored the point few, if any, people would notice.

In my long-ago museum days I saw another detail about deadeyes that most people miss.  In the eighteenth-century examples that had been found in the York River, the circumferential grooves don't go all the way around - at least on the upper deadeyes.  There's a gap in the groove at the top.  When you think about it, that makes perfect sense.  The shroud curves gently away from the deadeye when it's seized back on itself.  So that gap in the groove prevents the deadeye from turning.  I don't think I've ever seen that detail reproduced on a model - certainly not one of mine - but I think it's kind of interesting.  When that method of making deadeyes went out of fashion I have no idea.

I've rigged a couple of models with that Model Expo line.  I like it pretty well.  Recently, though, I found some stuff I like even better.  It's made by a little company called Cottage Industry Models.  This stuff really looks like scale rope.  If you don't want to make a miniature "rope walk" and spin up your own line (which isn't really terribly difficult - especially when the ship is a one-masted cog), the Cottage Industry line is the most realistic I've encountered.  The website is www.cottageindustrymodels.com ; click on "Accessories," then on "CIM Rope."

I wanted to back up your idea to use the vac sails. I recently finished up the Revell Pamir and like most, shunned the idea of using the vac sails, but it just didn't seem right to build this beautiful windjammer w/ out sails. As it is, the sails had pretty decent details and w/ a little weathering I think they came out pretty nice. They definitely add a 'fullness' and a sense of motion to the model that make it worth the trade off to me.

Exactly!  I think they look great!  When I built my Revell Vasa, I tried to cut out a vac-formed sail, and looking at it, it just seemed plastic-ey and lame...but I never even tried to paint it (I was a super-noob, way back then...last year!)...Would you be willing to go into more detail about how you shaped them, and how you made the holes for attaching them, etc.?

Many people strongly dislike vac-formed sails, but I think it's worth it to at least give them a try one time, see if I can't make a passable product out of it...again, yours look fine to me!

BTW, I ordered a mess of new Model Expo rigging line, and some hearts from Bluejacket...gotta get my paint scheme nailed down for the kogge, and get the basecoats airbrushed on pretty soon!

Also, I mixed up a batch of India ink and alcohol (70% isopropyl)...the wash didn't work how I hoped...it actually behaved similarly to how an acrylic wash does...it dried fast, but the pigment basically flowed AWAY from the crevices as it dried, and made the test part a murky mud stain...either A: It had to do with the water content of the rubbing alcohol solution; or B: Artist oil paints make a better wash, and I'm spoiled by their performance....I want to believe it's the latter....

Can anyone speak to the effects of pure alcohol in an ink wash, compared to one made with 70% alcohol, 30% water??

No water........!00% alcohol.  the water acts with the Ink and causes it to separate...the ink mixes well in the alcohol and dilutes well too.  That is why that 70% green alcohol you find does not work well.

However...as in any technique, it can be sensitive until mastered.

Rob

In answer to your question about how I did the sails.

First I airbrushed all the sails, while still attached, w/ a flat white, then lightly highlighted with deck tan,  then cut them out.

I used a needle to make holes across the top. The spacing was somewhat arbitrary since I had no idea what it should actually be and spot glued them to the yard, then added the ties.  Once attached, I had to 'bend' them a bit to sit on top of the yard below it. This gives it a nice 'billowed' affect. (the sails were actually a bit over sized and would needed to be bent to fit anyways). My understanding (and what i did here) is that when rigged with sails, the yards should be set at a slight angle rather than perpendicular to the center line as when rigged w/ out sails.

That's all there is to it. :)

Thanks, Arnie...when the right time comes, I'm going to give some vac sails a try.

Also, I *borrowed* some Isopropanol from work (lab-grade purity)...I'm gonna try the wash with india ink again, and see if it works any better.

I hope it works better for you....Did you paint it on or spray it?

One thing you might need to be aware of...once the initial application is applied...let it dry before adding more if you desire a darker weathering.  If you apply..then try some more..you could cause the original to reset and move from its crevises.

I tried it with the pure alcohol...applied with a brush.  No good.

It seems to settle properly at first, but then it kinda flows around too much...maybe I have the wrong india ink?  It was spendy, like 8 bucks for a little jar of it.

Also, my basecoats are acrylic, I guess that could affect it somehow?  It's possible that enamel basecoats work differently with india ink and alcohol? What do you use for paint, Rob?

Anyway, the wash I have been using with artist oil paint and turpenoid...it works great!  Takes awhile to dry, it's true...but the results are predictable and even...I guess I'll stick with it, though I will try some more experiments with the india ink.  Tell you what, if you haven't tried using oil paint with turpenoid, maybe you should give it a whirl...maybe it works better for me, or maybe it just works better period?

The good news is that I got the parts all separated for the Kogge today after work...after a little flash and *nub* cleanup, I'll be ready for airbrushing...then it's ON!

BTW, recommendations for a lower hull color?  Black?  It's a 13th century ship, did they use tar during that time?  Or should I mix up some kind of intermediate dark grey??

Dave

What ratio to Ink are you using? And it should flow around, it finds the cracks to hide in and then dries.  Like the oil paints you use, it darkens up the entire surface...with the cracks being highlighted....similar to your technique.  I did mention that you will have to *control* the flow of the medium...if you want it to stay, say in the gunwalls..then lean the ship on its side.  I even use gentle air flow from my air hose to spread it around as it speeds up the drying time......really makes for realistic stains and uneven weathering of decks and highlights separate deck planks.

I did say it was technique sensitive...and time always helps.

Do what works for you. Good luck.

Rob

Update:

So those hearts I got from Bluejacket are too messy to bother with.  They are misshapen, with filled-in grooves, and flash all over the holes....I basically would have to re-shape each one, and even then I don't think they would be as uniform as I want them to look...maybe I got a bad batch, I don't know.  Plus, I ordered two sizes, and the smaller ones are way too small for my 1/72 scale Kogge/Thomas.

So I looked online today, and decided to order some wooden triangular deadeyes from Cornwall Model Boats in the UK

www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/.../caldercraft_deadeyes.html

....I got 20 each of 5mm and 7mm...hopefully they'll do the trick, and with shipping it came out to under 10 bucks.  About 1/2 the price I paid at Bluejacket....

Now to wait for airmail from across the pond...might be a couple weeks...until then, I'll cross my fingers that they will be suitable!

Good luck...

Dave,

If it helps any, I used wooden 7mm triangular deadeyes for the forward stay and wooden 5mm deadeyes for the shrouds on the Hanse Kogge build.  I am trying to remember where I purchased them though. If they are boxwood, you might want to stain them a bit darker and if they are walnut I would leave them alone although I am pretty sure I stained them any way since I wanted the Kogge to look well used.

On the Thomas, I have been going for a newer look since this is supposed to be the flagship of Ed 3.

Steve