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What's up with the BIG Heller kits?

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, April 28, 2014 7:07 PM

Well Dave, in retrospect my regrets regarding the SR go further back than opening the box.  I wish I hadn't bought the thing.  A local hobby dealer offered me one for $75.00 (probably what it cost him) - a huge amount for a grad student, but the normal retail price would have been out of the question.

What model a modeler decides to take on is, of course, none of my business.  But Dave, I have to say that I really think you'd be happier going in another direction.  In the years that it would take you to finish the SR, you could build half a dozen or more beautiful, genuine scale models for all of us to enjoy.  (I'll bet you could do La Reale in six months or so - and I, for one, would love to see what your highly personal style and approach could do with it.)  Or any of half a dozen other subjects.  (Have you ever thought about a Revell Constitution?  It's certainly a better kit than the SR, and in some ways better than the Heller Victory.)

But the decision, of course, is yours,

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:35 AM

GM, thanks for the detailed notes...that's good stuff to know.

John, I get it.  :)

I do have a La Reale, and I also have a big Connie and a Cutty Sark...truthfully, I've been thinking that I may never build the big Revell kits, they're just not really my style (neither is the Heller Victory, for that matter, but for a price tag of 20 bucks, I couldn't pass it up)...however, there's "many a slip 'twixt a cup and a lip", and you never know what may happen.  I'm sure in time I'll build them all, and achieve my own appraisal of each.

More and more, I am tempted to open the box to the La Reale again and have a closer look.  But make no mistake, I will build a Soleil Royal, and I want to believe it'll be fun...

Remember, I'm not what you would call a *serious scale modeler*.

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

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  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:48 AM

I built the la Reale a year or two ago, and now have a problem about what to do with it! It is huge, and I built it with the oars deployed.  As a result it is by far the widest ship I have. It will not fit on a shelf nor in any display case I have.  I am looking for some place local to donate it :-(  Looks beautiful, though. I pitched the styrene sails and  made furled cloth ones.  The kit was close to drawings and fancy models I have found images of, and needed only minor corrections to the bow area.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, April 29, 2014 10:52 AM

Interesting, Don...

What are the dimensions of the La Reale when complete?

Also, what option would one have for building it without the oars deployed?  Can they be stowed on deck?  And how wide would the model be in that case?

By the way, have you posted any pics of it on the forum?  Seems like I remember seeing it...

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:11 PM

Uh...Dave,...I don't know quite how to break this to you, but in the time you've been taking part in this forum you've morphed into a serious scale modeler - in spite of yourself.  And a mighty fine one at that.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:48 AM

Wait, what?!?  Dang it...I was afraid that might happen!!  :)

Thanks for the compliment, John...

Though I would characterize a serious scale modeler as someone who scratchbuilds a Hancock.  I'm mostly an OOB modeler, who likes to add a few features here and there.  It's true, I care a little about certain details, but I still don't give a hoot about things like deck camber, waterline height, or topmast length....BUT, I think the oft-mentioned rigging peculiarities of the Big Heller kits would get my goat somewhat....so I guess there are some aspects of authenticity that I feel are important.

Look, I'm the same guy who built the Black Swan....and LOVED it!  Despite the capstan mainmast!

haha

Seriously, though....it's all in fun, and someday when I do build my SR, I hope I don't have to repel an onslaught of naysayers and criticism...

But first:  The Imai Golden Hind awaits!

Good Times!

Dave

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     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:54 AM

Dave...the LR is a period ship, right up your alley......and no matter what is said about it..I firmly believe you will make it your own and that most satisfactorly.

I recently perchased a 1/96 Sea Witch and (Very rare) Swordfish...to be added to my Large scale clipper fleet.  They too have some issues..but some mods and some license...and I will be like a kid in a candy shop (As it should be).

Rob

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, April 30, 2014 11:00 AM

A few random thoughts...

A serious builder is not defined as someone who sharpens their own exacto blades. A serious modeler is one who takes their builds seriously, IMO but you coined the term.

All of the serious modelers I know freely make the best of what's available. If it's plastic castings, mixed with carved wood, mixed with solder from Radio Shack; so be it. An OOB build can be a serious build indeed, as I think the Reale  certainly demonstrates. Or the big Revell frigate.

When you say Dave that you don't care about deck camber or topmast length, Dave, I frankly sort of smile because I don't believe you entirely. Yes, to quote Clint; "A man has to know his limitations", but the business of model building is really to stretch those limits. I'll be the first to admit that I build entirely to impress myself.

John has pointed out, and I certainly agree from experience, that with a really big build as is contemplated here, by the time  you get to the end you wish you could go back to the beginning and start over. With an airplane model, you can throw it away without too much remorse. A big ship, not so easy.

You have a great eye, just listen to your heart while you build. If it doesn't seem right, walk away, come back and do what you think is best.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:29 PM

Very well put GM.

I heartily concur w/ your perspective. The fact that Dave considers the camber, what paints to use, or any other details, and then deciding what to do about it, if anything, is definitely the mark of a serious builder. Besides which, if you are not a serious modeler, you probably are not someone monitoring or posting in this forum. Never once have I had anything but appreciation for anyone's work here, no matter what medium, to what lengths, or direction they may have taken it to.  I love the diversity, it continues to teach and enrich me.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, April 30, 2014 5:54 PM

Rob-  Good to hear from you!  Haven't seen any build updates in a while...

You're right about the LR being right up my alley (thanks again for the kit!), and it's beginning to seem likely that it will surpass the SR and the Vic in the queue for my upcoming *big builds*...after all, if I'm going to drive myself crazy with the SR, I might as well get all the "fun" builds done first!  haha

Also, you must be talking about the Lindberg Sea Witch??  I wondered if you would do that one, since you like clippers so much...please let us know how you like the kit, compared to the Revell stuff...I've never built a Lindberg model....

GM and Arnie- eloquent posts, and wise words from you both.  Yes, stretching one's limits is a huge part of modeling...I always try to add something new to my arsenal of skills whenever I build a kit (I'm about to learn how to make chainplates!)....and it's certainly true that, while developing skills, the time spent on a kit is long enough that the quality of work at the beginning may seem inferior to the quality at the end, and I've wished before that I "knew then what I know now"....I guess that's just the nature of hobbying!  That sentence was really wordy.  Dang.

Anyway, that being said, I can't speak to the definition of the term Serious Scale Modeler, it was coined by someone else....I guess my *inferred* definition of it was rather vague, but had the distinct connotation of "pursuing authenticity and scale as high priority", which is not a big deal to me...I do take my modeling seriously, but I'm not convinced that makes me a Serious Scale Modeler, whatever that may be?

By the way, I really do like the sense of community on this forum....I feel like many of us are good friends, and I'm grateful to have all of your input!  You all say nice things about my work, but the truth is that YOU have all amazed my with your results!  I've never been more happy to be the *new guy*....

Rock on!

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     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:07 PM

Dave-

I just finished a pretty good book dealing with the gap between illusion and reality.

The authors thesis is that's where art resides.

But in order to be relevant it has to connect to both. Connection is a relative term for sure.

I consider you an artist. Your wash techniques really have a great look and feel.

I am a partner in a pretty successful design business. She's the artist, I'm the guy who gets it biddable.

Hats off to you, and you can easily choose not to indulge too deeply in Serious Scale Modeling.

A really good example to look at is model railroading. It runs the gamut from true artists like Malcolm Furlong or John Allen to people who concentrate on the virtual- operations and timetables. I've never met a model railroader who was deeply involved in operations and timetables who invented his own system; but they may be out there.

My Grandfather was a past President of the NMRA and he scratchbuilt all of his true 1/48 scale stuff. To be sure, he mixed in commercial parts because he had a full time job too, but his models are really pretty whimsical. Carved wood conductor frying bacon in the caboose, etc. Did he have the right badges for the New Michigan Central? No, because no such railroad existed, but my Grandfather lived in Michigan and loved the New York Central.

I have most of his models. My only quest is that I have a photo of him posing with a model of a Southern Pacific Cab Forward. That would be something....

But he did his thing and obviously was really well respected.

So again, Bravo Sir!

Now dammit, did the dead lights on my yacht have six surfaces or eight?

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:14 PM

Dave.....I didn't pic up the Lindberg Sea Witch....but the older Marx Version with metal decks and the Marx Version of the Swordfish...both 1/96 scale and full hull versions.  Beautiful models...just waiting for my anxious hands to get at.

I'm also anxious to see your attempt of the LR........

I moved, so I have lots of putting away to do, before I get back to model building.

Rob

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, May 1, 2014 6:41 PM

Well, you guys...

I was just out in the garage, dipping brass chain and brass pins in some Blacken-It, watching in amazement as the pieces turned dark before my eyes, and it occurred to me...

I'm super-thrilled to be making homemade chainplates.

I guess there's no denying that I have indeed become a bit of a *Serious Modeler*....just kinda!

Touche.

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Friday, May 2, 2014 8:30 AM

David wait till the time comes when you find yourself forming and soldering each link!, oh yeah that will be fun.

Michael

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, May 2, 2014 8:39 AM

Haha...

I guess it just shows that I am in fact developing more patience (one of my primary goals in modeling)...

Hey Rob- don't suppose you've moved to the mainland side of Puget Sound?

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Friday, May 2, 2014 9:06 AM

No bro...just about 3 miles down the road...I do have a much nicer space to display my models(a fantastically wood clad sitting room with fire place and library)  Sweeeeet!

I'll be back at it later this summer...(building models)..once house repairs are done and I'm fully moved over(My wife inherited her Parents home).

Good luck with your builds and remember...it's about having fun.  Being good at it doesn't hurt either.......heehee

Keep up the good work and fine postings.

Rob

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: portland oregon area
Posted by starduster on Sunday, May 4, 2014 3:41 PM

I have been reading this post with high interest as I have both the Heller HMS Victory and the La Soiel Reale kits what's been holding me back is the blocks and deadeyes replacements, so far I have not been able to find the sizes to replace with, I read treads like this on modelers replacing said items but no one had given any catalog numbers or suppliers would it be so kind to give a list of what numbers of deadeyes and blocks for each kit I'd appreciate it immensely ? and would it be possible to see photos of your build Don of your Soiel Royale ? thanks again.   Karl

photograph what intrests you today.....because tomorrow it may not exist.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, May 4, 2014 11:52 PM

I can't tell you how many you'll need, but I can tell you how to figure out the sizes for yourself.

The sizes of the deadeyes in the Heller kits appear to be about right.  So you can measure them. 

None of the blocks in either kit are small enough to represent the smallest ones on the actual ships.  To get those sizes you'll need to consult plans and/or books.  And you'll need to decide (though not in advance of starting) just how much rigging you want to do.  To set up all the standing and running rigging that each ship would carry in fighting trim you'd need upwards of a thousand blocks and deadeyes.  Unless  you have a good deal of experience, though, I wouldn't recommend trying that.  There are plenty of lines that can quite legitimately be left off a display model.  Many people rig the standing rigging and the key lines of the running rigging - the braces, lifts, and halyards - and leave it at that.

And there's no reason to buy all the blocks and deadeyes at once.  My suggestion is to start out by ordering a dozen of each size you think you'll need, compare them to the ones in the kits, and order more as you need them.  (If you do a halfway thorough job of rigging, you'll spend several hundred dollars on blocks and deadeyes.  But you can spread that out over several years.) 

I'm a big fan of the cast metal ones from Bluejacket ( www.bluejacketinc.com ).  The deadeyes you need are the "uppers" and "lowers," unstropped.  It's relatively easy to count the number of deadeyes you'll need.

Determining the numbers of blocks is a little harder; I wouldn't even try to do it in advance.  Before you get far into the Victory you need to acquire a decent set of plans.  You'll find lots of recommendations here in the Forum.  There apparently are no plans (at least in English-language sources) for the Soleil Royal.  The best way to learn how to rig it is to get hold of a copy of R.C. Anderson's The Rigging of Ships In the Days of the Spritsail Topmast.  That'll tell you everything you need to know to rig a model like that.

Bluejacket blocks are nice, too; I've used them to rig my last several models.  But for these two particular kits I think I'd recommend considering the wood ones offered by Chuck Passaro's new company, Syren Ship Models (www.syrenshipmodelcompany.com ).  I haven't bought any yet, but the photos of them look superb.  And I think they're a little cheaper than Bluejacket's. 

Hope that helps at least a little.  Good luck.

P.S.  The name of the French ship is Le Soleil Royal.  "Le" means "the," "soleil" means "sun," and "royal" means "royal," or "regal."  The name is a reference to Lois XIV, "the sun king."  "Soleil" is a masculine noun, so there's no e on the end.  "Le" and "Royal" are masculine adjectives.  (If the noun were feminine, the name would be "La Soleile Royale.") French has no neuter gender.  On one of the other web forums we once had an interesting discussion of whether other languages use feminine pronouns, like "she" and "her," to refer to ships.  A French reader explained that almost all French ship names are masculine, the exceptions being ships named after women who've been titled Dames of France.  Example:  La Jeanne D'Arc, named after Joan of Arc.) 

As best I can remember from the French courses I took about 45 years ago, the name would be pronounced something like "lih soLAY whaYAH."  But I imagine somebody with a better knowledge of the language can correct me.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2022
Posted by Southpawslingshot on Monday, June 27, 2022 8:56 PM

jtilley

Well Dave, in retrospect my regrets regarding the SR go further back than opening the box.  I wish I hadn't bought the thing.  A local hobby dealer offered me one for $75.00 (probably what it cost him) - a huge amount for a grad student, but the normal retail price would have been out of the question.

What model a modeler decides to take on is, of course, none of my business.  But Dave, I have to say that I really think you'd be happier going in another direction.  In the years that it would take you to finish the SR, you could build half a dozen or more beautiful, genuine scale models for all of us to enjoy.  (I'll bet you could do La Reale in six months or so - and I, for one, would love to see what your highly personal style and approach could do with it.)  Or any of half a dozen other subjects.  (Have you ever thought about a Revell Constitution?  It's certainly a better kit than the SR, and in some ways better than the Heller Victory.)

But the decision, of course, is yours,

 

jtilley,

You made a comment at the end of your entry above that the Revell Constitution is in "some ways better than the Heller Victory". I am going to be building both kits. They will be pretty much my focus at my modeling bench. I have read your past thoughts on the Heller HMS Victory. My question for you is why do you consider the Revell Constitution a better kit in some regards? And any insights you can offer me on building both of these kits would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. 

 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Tuesday, June 28, 2022 2:16 AM

Sorry to tell you, but professor Tilley died a few years ago, it was a huge loss to this forum. Hopefully other forum members can help you on that.

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    March 2022
  • From: Twin cities, MN
Posted by missileman2000 on Tuesday, June 28, 2022 8:21 AM

David_K

Interesting, Don...

What are the dimensions of the La Reale when complete?

Also, what option would one have for building it without the oars deployed?  Can they be stowed on deck?  And how wide would the model be in that case?

By the way, have you posted any pics of it on the forum?  Seems like I remember seeing it...

 

It is about seventeen inches wide.  The base is wider than tips of oars to protect them.

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Tuesday, June 28, 2022 4:35 PM

Southpawslingshot
why do you consider the Revell Constitution a better kit in some regards? And any insights you can offer me on building both of these kits would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I cannot put words in our dearly departed Professor's mouth.

Having spent more than some slight time corresponding with him, I know wher the two of us agreed in the main.  To that end, I will use my words to opine.

Heller, especially in the era they developed Victory, were significantly more concerned with churning out kits, than the satisfaction of the modelers who purchased them.

Revell, on the other hand marketed their kits to modelers, and put some effort in giving them a product that was build-able.

Revell has a rigging plan (two really) that is based in the actual rigging of the ship.  Heller, is more of a "suggestion" (if not quite as spurious as some of their other large kits).

The detail in the moulding of the Revell kit is really worlds better.

Now, in all fairness, both kits have horrific ratlines that have no resemblance to reality.

You should arm yourself with a set of Campbell's plans for both. A copy of the Anatomy of the Ship for each can be helpful (C. Nepan Longridge's Anatomy of Nelson's Ships may actually hold you back, as the author builds a 1/48 version, from scratch, and frm just before WWII, and makes Every Single Thing.  As in the anchor stock wales are make of individual planks; every line was spun to specification on a home-made rope walk.

There is a wealth of aftermarket for both kits, now, that was not true when this tread was begun.  Much of the PE now available for Victory addresses Heller's weaknesses.

Our member here, @ModelMonkey has extensive 3d printed accessories which will improve the Heller kit (just at some expense)

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, June 28, 2022 6:01 PM

The Heller kit originally came with instructions that were bird cage floor worthy.In french, with many Errors.

Imai reboxed the kit and substituted clearly superior instructions, even though they are in Japanese (I have a set).

I have heard that later releases mhad English instructions that were usable, although I have never seen them.

Both kits have their pros and cons.

Here's Tilley on the Victory:

https://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/129206.aspx?page=1

Bondoman was my earlier handle.

Bill

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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