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Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark Ratlines

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  • Member since
    November 2010
Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark Ratlines
Posted by Bigb123 on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 8:45 PM
Hello. Does anyone know where I could get a replacement set? I seem to have misplaced the ones that came with my kit. Or, sould I try to tie my own? Any suggestions welcome! Thanks!!
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, October 28, 2014 10:58 PM

Tie your own certainly.

There's a lot of ways to do it and they all work out fine. Better than the stuff the kit gives you.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 1:56 AM

First a little vocabulary. The heavy lines running from the sides of the ship to the mastheads are called shrouds. They're important structural parts of the ship's rigging. The ratlines, which are much thinner, run horizontally across the shrouds and serve as ladders for the crewmen going aloft.

I always encourage people to rig their own shrouds and ratlines. It isn't as hard as a lot of people seem to think - and once you've rigged a few of your own, you'll almost certainly conclude that those plastic-coated thread things that come in the kits are pretty hideous. (Besides, it's almost impossible to get them taut.)

The shrouds of the Cutty Sark are made of rope, and so are her ratlines. The shrouds are supposed to be looped around the mastheads; each shroud goes up from the deadeye, around the masthead, and down to the next deadeye on the same If you do a Forum search on "ratlines," you'll find quite a few posts that explain a couple of ways of doing it. If this is the first time you've tried it, I'd suggest the "needle through the shroud" trick. [later edit: somehow or other part of that last sentence initially got dropped. Sorry about that.] But tying them like the originals, with clove hitches to hold them to the shrouds, isn't really so difficult - and the Cutty Sark, with only a few shrouds per mast, isn't such a bad model to learn how to do it on.

Several Forum participants have urged newcomers to use overhand, or square, knots instead of clove hitches, but I've never been able to figure out why. The clove hitch is just about the easiest knot there is.  Here's a web page that explains it: http://www.google.com/url?ysa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHf6bbQKj1X4&ei=eZFQVKjVN8yxyATs-4CICQ&bvm=bv.78597519,d.aWw&psig=AFQjCNGXmZqq2JY81rwNdUxIjaOq48N6vA&ust=1414652664768479

I'll offer once more an observation I've made often in this Forum: rigging ratlines is pretty simple. It does have a learning curve, which is kind of steep but remarkably short. My guess is that, if you've never done it before, the first ratline you rig will take you ten to fifteen minutes. The second will take about half that. And by the time you get to the masthead you'll be tying one every minute or two, and wondering why people make such a fuss about tying ratlines.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:55 AM

Even though I have done many sail vessels, I build other things, and so get out of practice tying ratlines.  When I then start on a new sailing ship, the first set of ratlines takes forever (well, a couple of hours, anyway).  But that is just getting the brain to finger nerves retrained.  The second set goes faster- by the second mast I find I am not even thinking of what I am doing, the inner levels take over and do the work while my mind wanders about shoes, and ships and sealing wax, and cabbages ....

Anyways, the message is that it is just one more skill to learn, and hand mounted and tied shrouds and ratlines will always look better than jig or premade ones.

Some women tell me knitting and crochet work the same way.  Once you train your hands and fingers, they take over the job and let your mind wonder where it will.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by Bigb123 on Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:32 PM

Thanks, everyone.  I'll try one of these methods.  I do agree, the plastic assemblies really aren't that great.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:54 AM

Personally I would buy some deadeyes and rig the lanyards and shrouds protypically.......it improves your model extremely......IMV.

Find the CS build thread and see what I did...it pretty much is layed out with lots of photos.

Rob

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Thursday, October 30, 2014 11:17 AM

Big B,  I sent a PM.  The Cutty you see in my avitar has handtied RL

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, October 31, 2014 1:51 PM

I misspoke when I suggested piano wire. That stuff is steel, its hard to cut and it rusts.

But I've had a lot of good results using brass wire- the kind you buy in 9" lengths of straight pieces.

It is easy to glue straight, it paints well and it lasts forever. Rigged many a biplane that way.

As far as rigging the shrouds, sure both sides. But the ratlines tend to be something you can add as time and patience permit. So I've done one side at a time before, or top to bottom masts, anything to break up the task.

Just my 2 bits.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, November 1, 2014 9:07 AM

What scale are we talking about? Wire rigging is great for very small scales. I'd certainly recommend it for the tiny Airfix Cutty Sark, or the Imai/Revell 1/350 version. But if we're talking about the 1/96 Revell kit, I find it hard to imagine rigging it with solid, unstranded wire. And frankly I can't see any reason to try it. For one thing, it wouldn't look right. On that scale the strands of the rope ought to be quite prominent.

I don't think there's much room for doubt: rigging a 1/96 ship model is a job for high-quality thread.

I do agree that breaking up the tedium of ratline rigging is a good idea - though the tedium will be much less after you get a little practice.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, November 1, 2014 11:39 AM

Alright I give up.

Just consider this: the original poster inquired about replacements of those horrible molded things.

Going to a totally hand set up job with individual dead eyes, lanyards shrouds and foot ropes is so extreme as to be somewhat incredible advice.

I for one will readily admit to not finishing any such thing in anything bigger than my Fair American.

The mere thought of doing so on my Heller Victory gives me night sweats and makes it clear I'll never get it anywhere past the masts and standing rigging below the tops.

All of the big Connie's I ever built used the molded dead eyes with thread tied around the top dead eyes.

I'm going to guess that the total number of fully rigged CS Revell models completed in the last decade maybe number in the low dozens.

End of rant.

Have a good weekend I need a time out.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, November 1, 2014 12:39 PM

I agree that a 1/96 full-rigged ship is not a good choice for a first attempt at individual deadeyes and lanyards. But as a first exercise in tying ratlines, the CS isn't bad - certainly not as bad as a warship, with many more shrouds. And l agree that the...things...that come in the kits (whether injection-molded, plastic-coated thread, or "ratline looms") are awful.

But I continue to think that rigging ratlines to scale is easier than lots of people think. Yeah, some people,due to arthritis, bad closeup vision, or other infirmities, will find it impracticable. I sympathize with those folks completely; these days I'm having my own share of problems with arthritis and eyesight. But my honest suggestion to those folks is to pick a different hobby. Building a sailing ship model entails quite a few jobs that are tougher than rigging ratlines.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2011
Posted by Bugatti Fan on Saturday, November 22, 2014 10:31 AM

Lloyd McCaffrey's book building Ships In Miniature describes in detail about how to make rigging for smaller model sailing ships in Nickel Silver and Copper wire by using different gauges. Also how to wind it to represent rope and methods of affixing it to masts and spars etc. His book is a treatise on building ship models from wood, but many of his methods could be utilised to detail a model made from a plastic kit.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Sunday, November 23, 2014 8:17 PM

Anyone who is serious about creating authentic and realistic rigging for a clipper must at least entertain the notion of rigging the shroud lanyards(IMV)  It is the stuff that makes you better modeler...win of fail.

Here is an image of my Revell CS rigger entirely protyically.   I am not suggesting everyone can take the challenge...but trying is not the same as failing.   Levels of experience will dictate ones ability...however tenacity and endurance can aid in prevailing.  From my experiences anyway.

Rob

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Sunday, November 23, 2014 8:21 PM

Time is pretty much your only adversary............If I can thread a needle anybody can.

Just take the plunge.

Rob

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Lamarque,Texas
Posted by uspsjuan on Monday, November 24, 2014 7:30 AM

Rob, nice job. you gave a bit of hope to this 10 thumb modeler.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Monday, November 24, 2014 9:00 AM

Proper tools help. I make two special tools for rigging though I have seen the same tools for sale.  The two tools are a long handled  hook and a long handled fork.  I make them myself out of crochet tools available cheaply at craft stores.  Actually, the hook can be used as is- for the fork I take a large needle and saw the eye in half to make a fork.  These two tools and a good tweezer really help rigging tasks.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Monday, November 24, 2014 8:14 PM

Go get-em....

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Monday, November 24, 2014 8:23 PM

Here is a version I did without rigging the shrouds and lanyards...but used the kits version.  NOT as impressive IMV.  The dedeyes and lanyards are too bulky and were very difficult to align to the very poor thin molded shrouds/ratlines.

Rob

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Monday, November 24, 2014 8:23 PM

  • Member since
    November 2010
Posted by Bigb123 on Monday, November 24, 2014 11:27 PM

Oh mercy.  So if I want to do ratlines without the ones that came with the kit I have to buy all these special tools, tie all sorts of knots, and, forgive me, have all these special cords?   What kind of wire?   Man, did I open a can of worms!!  I apologize to everyone!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 25, 2014 1:56 AM

Of course you don't have to do any of those things. One of the ideas behind the plastic sailing ship is to let people who aren't particularly interested in the subject produce decent-looking models. Some of the manufacturers' efforts to reproduce a sailing ship in plastic have been very successful. (Only the best scratchbuilt models have more detailed hulls, ornamentation, decks, and deck fittings.) Other parts of a sailing ship are less well-suited for reproduction in styrene. The most obvious is rigging. The kit designers just haven't figured out a way to reproduce the rigging of a ship realistically without requiring a considerable amount of effort, and a certain amount of skill, on the part of the modeler.

To take up the questions one by one - I've gotten along for many years with no fancier rigging tool than a good, pointed pair of tweezers and a small, high-quality pair of scissors. (Don's idea for making hooks and forks is also excellent - and costs practically nothing.) Learning to tie knots is an interesting hobby, but to rig a ship model you only need to know two: the clove hitch for tying ratlines and the reef (square) knot for everything else. They're just about the simplest knots in the world to tie; you can learn both of them in ten minutes.

Finding good rigging line is a nuisance, all right; the stuff included in most kits is oversized, hairy, and frequently the wrong color. (I've seen line in Heller kits that was a yucky shade of green, believe it or not.) But it's not hard to find better stuff. Check out Model Expo, Bluejacket, Cottage Industries, and/or Syren Ship Model Company. All of them do business online - and their products will look much, much more like real rope than anything you can find in a craft or sewing store.

Several spools of copper and annealed steel wire (nice stuff; available from Bluejacket and ModelExpo) will come in handy for all sorts of things. and keep your eyes open for other kinds of wire - especially in small sizes. More than thirty years ago a friend gave me a spool of .0015" nickel-chromium wire that he'd found in a military surplus store. I used it for the ratlines and other extra-small lines on my little model of the frigate Hancock (scale: 3/32"=1'), and I still have several miles of it left on the spool.

And doing an authentic rigging job does almost require some aftermarket parts. Some rigging fittings just can't, in practical terms, be reproduced in styrene. Blocks and deadeyes have holes in them and grooves around them; a two-piece, rigid mold can't produce a fitting with both. That's one big reason why the plastic kit manufacturers have gone through all those gyrations to simplify the rigging of shrouds and ratlines.

And there's no denying that the aftermarket parts - assuming that you pick good ones - look more realistic than the ones in the kits. Revell rigging blocks aren't bad, but they're out of scale for 1/96; anybody who's been rigging ship models for a few years can recognize a Revell block from across a room. Heller blocks are even worse; I'm not convinced that they could be used convincingly at all without having grooves filed around them.

How much time and effort you put into your model is entirely up to you. If you build it straight from the box, you certainly aren't doing anything wrong. But there's no denying that, compared to aircraft, armor, car, and modern warship kits, the difference between an out-of-the-box sailing ship and a much-modified one is extremely conspicuous. A sailing ship simply doesn't translate as easily into molded plastic.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:02 AM

Very good points Jtilley...very good.

BigB.   You don't have to buy anything special..no wire...no special tools.  All that is nice and as you progress in your skill set..these things can  and will become part of your tooling.  I but deadeyes from bluejacket or any small ship fitting company(Wood for me), the metal ones are also very good too.  I use simple sewing thread for the top and higher lanyards and a very fine (Beeding thread) for the main lanyards.  I also use nylon thread found at Rose crafts or Michael's.  Nothing special.  I paint my deadeyes and landyards  because they were typically tarred black to preserve them.

Don't let the finished product deter you...it is far easier then it appears.

Good luck.

Rob

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Wednesday, November 26, 2014 9:38 AM

Were the lanyards intentionally tarred, or did they just get dirty because of being surrounded by all the tarred rigging?  The ones I have seen on tall ships were dirty but not actually tarred. I thought they had to adjust them periodically.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, November 27, 2014 10:39 AM

The whole subject of rigging color is an interesting one. I don't think there's a straight answer to Don's question.

Modern, operating ships aren't of much help. They almost invariably have synthetic rigging, which comes in colors.

All we really have to go on are paintings and old photos. Both are pretty ambiguous. The old masters generally seem to have used dark brown for almost all rigging, and the photos invariably are in black and white.

The only real documentation I've seen deal with the British Navy in the seventeenth, eighteenth, and early nineteenth centuries. During that period all line supplied to the Royal Navy was legally required to be soaked in Stockholm tar. It has a rich, medium brown color. There are lots of references to "blackening" the standing rigging with a mixture of tar, sulfur, and lampblack, which, if it wasn't pure black, must have been pretty close.

Whether the deadeye lanyards got "blackened" or not I don't know. But tar wouldn't make the rope rigid. In the aforementioned paintings and photos I can't recall ever noting an obvious distinction in color between the shrouds and the lanyards. I think this is another place where individual judgment and taste rule the day.

For what it's worth, the deadeye lanyards of the recently restored Charles W. Morgan are black. I have no idea what sort of rope was used, but the restorers at Mystic Seaport are among the best in the business. I'm sure they had good reasons for rigging her the way they did.

The Morgan

One general observation. Many model builders, for some reason, make their running rigging too light in color. Sometimes white. I think one reason is that wood kit manufacturers sometimes supply white line with their kits. Nowadays many boats and ships are rigged with white synthetic line, but of course no such stuff existed until a few decades ago. ( I was really bugged by the ship in the 1983 movie "The Bounty." All the running rigging was pure white.) The running rigging of a real, pre-twentieth-century sailing ship would have ranged in color from dull tan to medium brown  -  because it was natural fiber rope. (Those nice running rigging lines in the photo above won't stay that color for long - unless they're synthetic.)

Caveat: photos of models can be deceptive - especially flash photos. More than once I've deleted pictures of my models because the running rigging literally lit up under bright lights. Don't assume the rigging is too light on the sole basis of photos.

At just about the middle of the nineteenth century, rigging started to be made of wire. Some of the Cutty Sark's standing rigging is wire. (The George Campbell plans specify which lines.) The wire was made of iron (or later steel). It frequently was coated with tar (as a rustproofer), so it wouldn't look much different than rope standing rigging. If I remember correctly, the pendants for the Cutty Sark's braces are wire. By the beginning of the twentieth century - the time of the big German steel barks - wire had virtually taken over for standing rigging.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I wish somebody would do a really thorough, scholarly study of the colors of rigging line over the centuries - and, for that matter, in different countries.

Until that happens, I'll repeat the two Golden Rules for ship model rigging: One - if in doubt as to size, err on the small size. Two (with apologies to Darth Vader): if in doubt as to color, err on the dark side.

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 28, 2014 1:42 AM

I suppose that the way to go about that would be to research the diaries of ship masters. Product coming out of the rope lofts might be researched, but it no doubt was treated on board during use.

Something like the British Navy might have certain standards but even then every captain had their methods.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Friday, November 28, 2014 9:02 AM

When the Niagara came to Duluth several years ago, after waiting in line all morning and most of afternoon, I got aboard the vessel.  I took many pictures of the rigging (I had put a few in a similar thread a few years ago- I can post them again if someone is interested.

The thread them was about the color of tarred line.  Since the pitch used is more brownish than black, the thread was that we should paint standing rigging brown.  I asked a crewman who had been involved in the re-construction about that, and he said, indeed, when it was first applied it was brownish, but after a few weeks in the sun it turned black.  The lanyards on the Niagara were tan, but dirty with black smudges.  I can post a shot I did of the deadeyes and lanyards if folks want.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 28, 2014 11:12 AM

Very interesting. That implies that she's rigged with genuine, natural fiber rope. I'm impressed.

I don't know much about the Niagara. Every summer a group of students in our maritime history program sails on board her (it's called the Seamester - yuck), but I don't think I've ever seen her. The photos of her that I've seen suggest that she's a pretty faithful reproduction.

That "dirty but untarred" look that Don describes strikes me as quite appropriate for deadeye lanyards.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Friday, November 28, 2014 3:49 PM

I found great validation for tarring shrouds and lanyards when reading the book *Flying Cloud*.  It is an account (Historical) of the first passage of the FC from HY to SF via the Horn...and it was clear that black tarring the stays,shrouds, and their lanyards was a common and typical practice...one to preserve the otherwise exposed natural fiber ropes.  The crew applied it liberally via hand..to nearly all standing rigging.  Wiping off the messy goo from crews hands led to running rigging being discolored.......along with natural sun bleaching.

Yes lanyards are for tightening stretching shrouds and backstays...but this did not prevent the lines from deteriorating just as easily...hence the tarring.

Every clipper ships historical record that I have come across validates this practice..........

I can not speak for men of war...though I would find it difficult to believe they too did not tar lanyards.

My 2 cents anyway.

Rob

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 28, 2014 8:19 PM

I wonder if there was another consideration. Tar doesn't make rope rigid; a tarred piece of rope will bend just about like a bare piece. But running a tarred line through a block could easily gum up the works of the block. Seventeenth-and eighteenth-century blocks had simple sheaves (sometimes wood) on simple axles. If some nice, gooey tar got into the mechanism on a hot day, the sheave might well quit turning. The problem potentially would be even worse in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries, when blocks were being made with roller bearings. Also, a rope coated with tar and coiled around a belaying pin would be a mess.

But deadeyes don't have sheaves; they rely on friction to do their job.

In other words, the thinking may have been that any line should be tarred if it COULD be - i.e., if it didn't have to run through a block or get handled routinely. I've never read a statement like that in a primary source, but it seems to make sense.

For what little it's worth, I've always rigged deadeye lanyards with black thread.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Saturday, November 29, 2014 12:20 AM

Standing rigging does not run through blocks.  

Rob

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