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Heller Soleil Royal (WIP)

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  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:04 AM

Maybe someone can help.

I'm trying to make sense out of the R.C. Anderson book, Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, and so much of it is hard for me to visualize.

Is there any French ship kit of a similar timeframe that has rigging instructions that would even remotely translate to that of the Soleil Royal?  It's just that I've heard before about how the Heller rigging instructions are way off, and I'd like to find something to compare it with.  Or, if I knew of someone who could give me examples of specifically what is wrong with the Heller rigging plans...

Of course, I'm still working my way through Anderson's book, making notes and creating a *list* of sorts that helps me to know (sort of) what the rigging should include.

Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there!

Thanks!

Dave

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     (_D_P_K_)
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

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  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:17 AM

Oh it's not that easy. Two ideas: immerse yourself in the history of Richelieu (images help).

Contact the French maritime museum.

traveltoeat.com/french-maritime-museum-paris

I don't mean to be abtuse, Dave.

You will learn what you need.

Comparing another kit is at best circular reasoning. I know you think I'm a stick in the mud, but you are at a level of research now where you can afford to learn things we will all benefit from.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 8:47 AM

I think the problem may be that so much of the Anderson book is verbal, rather than pictorial. To use it you need to have a pretty firm grip on the terminology that describes the various spars and lines, so when he describes a. Line "hitched to the collar of the forestay, running through a block seized to the fore yardarm just outboard of the yardarm cleat, then through a block seized to the mainstay just below the standing part, and thence to the fair lead on the main topsail sheet bits and belayed," you can immediately visualize what the line looks like. Then the process becomes pretty straightforward.

I have a suspicion that there are quite a few French-language books on ship technology that I know nothing about. I don't know of any English-language heavily-illustrated books about French rigging. I do know of a couple of well-illustrated books about British ships that probably would help visualize how the whole system works. One is James Lees's The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1620-1860. The other is the illustrated catalog of the Henry Huddleston Rogers (Rodgers?) Collection of Ship Models, which is at the Naval Academy Museum in Annapolis. (There are several editions.) Both books have lots of good, clear photos. And the differences between English and French practice actually didn't amount to a whole lot.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 7:34 PM

Thanks, you guys.

I'm going to continue gleaning what I can from Anderson, and keep an eye out for some other sources of info, as well.  I think it might help to begin comparing some of the kits rigging steps against Anderson, and I'll try to pick out discrepancies and other obvious no-nos...

Not sure if I'll go too far with corrections, but you can count on one thing:

I'll share any notable details...

I went ahead and looked up the instructions for Heller's Couronne, since it seemed to be of a similar timeframe, but that kit is so simply-rigged that there's nothing to be learned from it.

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:24 AM

. Line "hitched to the collar of the forestay, running through a block seized to the fore yardarm just outboard of the yardarm cleat, then through a block seized to the mainstay just below the standing part, and thence to the fair lead on the main topsail sheet bits and belayed,"

That doesn't sound like any line from 18-19th century rigging! Is it the fore braces? I thought the differences between 17 and 18th century rigging were subtle.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, April 16, 2015 1:26 PM

I didn't intend that hypothetical description to match an actual line. Now that I read it again, though, it looks like if the line started at the collar of the mainstay the description would fit a common method of rigging the fore braces.

Rigging, of course, evolved slowly. The rigging of the Constitution in 1812 wasn't a lot different from that of the Hancock in 1776, but there were differences all right. The most conspicuous, perhaps, were things like the abandonment of the spidery crowsfeet on the tops.That was a holdover from at least the seventeenth century. There were also plenty of changes in the runs of individual lines. Mr. Lees's book describes them in detail; its surprising how many times the rigging of, for example, bowlines and buntlines varied over the decades.


In general - with plenty of exceptions - the tendency in rigging evolution was toward simplification. The rigging of a seventeenth-century galleon was cumbersome, sometimes to the point of near-irrationality. The twentieth-century square-rigged merchantman was about as efficient as it's possible for the square rig to be - complete with Jarvis brace winches and other manpower-reducing devices.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, April 16, 2015 1:47 PM

My current longterm research is on the Bath schooners for the early 20th Century.

Those things, the lot of us on this forum could manage to sail.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2011
Posted by Bugatti Fan on Thursday, April 16, 2015 2:45 PM

I built the Soleil Royale many years ago (with a lot of postal help from John Tilley at the time). Only snail mail in those days. Builds into a very impressive model despite its shortcomings that John has already  described. Sold it on ages ago.

Anyway, having digressed from what I want to say is that I picked up a book very recently named Rigging Period Ship Models by Lennarth Petersson. It is published by Seaforth Publishing in the UK.       ISBN 978 1 84832 102 1.   The book shows pictorially how each mast and yard is rigged and is all broken down into really helpful sketches and brief part descriptions. It was written by a ship modeller who was frustrated with other ship modelling books lack of space devoted to the rigging aspect. A very easy book to follow. At the price (£25.00) in the UK, in my opinion a very good reference book  and very competitively priced. Probably available from Amazon.

  • Member since
    March 2014
Posted by kpnuts on Thursday, April 16, 2015 3:27 PM

Such a brave man I looked at this kit, then looked at the rigging and thought I'll go for the reale, if I'd seen all the other complications, not a kit I will attempt any time soon. You are doing superb work here, well done.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:56 PM

I think my old friend Noel is right about the Petersson book. I don't have a copy, but it seems to have a fine reputation.  The combination of Anderson and Petersson should tell you just about very thing you need to know.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, April 16, 2015 6:04 PM

Thank you guys for your advice!

I actually have Petersson's book, and it's a great tool for understanding various rigging lines.

However, I wonder if it's applicable for the SR, since all of the rigging in the book is based from one ship, a late 18th century English Frigate (the Melampus)...

Would much of it be suitable for reference while building a 17th century French warship?

Either way, I guess the long and short of it is this:

I have some homework to do.  :)

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, April 16, 2015 9:12 PM

Good point,  Dave. You need to get a handle on the many differences. They should be pretty clear from the Anderson book. The Lees book would be another good acquisition, in that it meticulously traces the evolution of each line over time.

One other thought. There's no rule about how MUCH rigging you have to do. If I were you I'd start by setting up all the standing rigging. (That will take at least a couple of months.) By then you should be pretty familiar with all the necessary terminology. Then rig the really essential running rigging - the lifts, halyards, jeers, and braces. At that point you may want to quit. If not, proceed to things like the clewlines, leechlines, bowlines, and all the other lines associated with the sails.

I think you may be making more of this problem. The basics f rigging are pretty simple. Ships like the SR just repeat the basics many times.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, April 16, 2015 10:18 PM

John, I have considered following a more simplified rigging scheme...most of the models I have built have included standing rigging, halyards, lifts, braces, and sometimes sheets.  As I get more acquainted with the intricacies, I suppose I'll make a more informed decision about how deep into the *rabbit hole* I'll go!

I looked around a little for the Lees book....yikes!  70 bucks seems to be the average price for it!  A little steep for me...

Oh, by the way...my acrylic paint pen came today (thank goodness for Amazon Prime and free 2-day shipping!)...I tried it on a spare piece of upper bulwark....looks like a good paint, good coverage, decent amount of shine, and goes on much easier than using a brush!  Gotta say thanks for the suggestion!  Now, I just need to wait til tomorrow to see how it responds to the application of oil paint....I suspect it will hold up just fine (it's supposed to be acrylic, but it had a decidedly Spirit-ey smell to it!)...and if so, I think it will make all that decorative goldwork a cinch!  Relatively speaking.

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Friday, April 17, 2015 1:23 PM

The thought occurred to me that the illustrations in Peterson may help you interpret the jargon form your other source.

Can't wait to see some more pics!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, April 17, 2015 2:39 PM

The Lees book is expensive; there's no denying it. It was expensive when it was new, and I guess it's now out of print - which makes it even more expensive.

It's a really important book, though. It will be extremely useful for any other sailing ship model (of a pre-1860 ship) you ever build. Constitution and Victory modelers, for instance, find it pretty essential. When I was working on my little Hancock I was looking up stuff in that book every few minutes. 

On the other hand, it would be just about useless for building a model of the Cutty Sark. For that one you need Harold Underhill's Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier. Also expensive.

It is, of course, up to you whether either of these books is worth buying. Remember, though, that if you're still working on the hull of the SR, you won't have much use for any book on rigging for many months - maybe a year.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, April 17, 2015 3:14 PM

My first shipment of Syren rigging line arrived yesterday. I love it. It has a nice, soft, workable texture, and visually it looks more like real rope than anything else I've encountered. I bought two colors: black and light brown. The light brown is just what I need for my fishing schooner; it looks just like good natural rope looks when it's been in service for some time.

Mr. Passaro explained via e-mail that only the two smallest sizes are hawser (right-hand)-laid. He uses a simple "rope-making machine" powered by an electric drill, and makes the larger sizes out of the two smaller ones. To spin hawser-laid threads into hawser-laid rope is a time-consuming mess, and he doesn't offer that service. (I don't blame him.) For an SR model, I'd consider making some of the very largest running rigging lines (the jeers, topsail halyards, and a few others) myself and using the Syren line for everything else. To two smallest sizes (hawer-laid) will cover most of the standing rigging, and the cable-laid black line will be fine for the larger standing rigging.

It also would be worth thinking about using Syren's dark brown color for the standing rigging. Some people think that, especially in a seventeenth-century ship, pure black is too dark.

I also bought (mainly because it was on sale) a Model Expo "Rope Making Machine." I haven't put it together yet, but on the basis of what I see in the box I think it should work - for making cable-laid rope. It doesn't have a "top" - the little round gadget that sets the pitch of the winding strands. I'll see how it works without it; if necessary it's ludicrously easy to make a top. (A wood spool with three notches in it will work fine.) And I'll see how hard it is to make hawser-laid rope with it, by turning the cranks in the opposite direction.

In all honesty, few people other than those with irrational rigging obsessions (like me) notice the difference between cable-laid and hawser-laid rope. If one rigged an entire model with Syren rope, few people would object. I certainly wouldn't.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, April 17, 2015 5:17 PM

I agree on at least two points:

1) The Syren line is some of the nicest rigging line I've seen...so glad for the recommendations!

2) I'm using Dark brown for the standing rigging...it's true, black is too dark, for my taste.

Not sure if I'll get much modeling done this weekend...we finally have a good stretch of nice weather...looks like this weekend will be more suited for gardening and yardwork...

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, April 17, 2015 5:19 PM

When I get to Elsie, that sounds like fine stuff.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, April 17, 2015 6:46 PM

Dave,

I'm glad that you like the pen marker for the detail work.  I have been using one for years and I love it.

Bill

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, April 18, 2015 7:02 PM

Bill-

Yes, the paint pen is going to save me a LOT of time, and retouching.  I'll probably buy a couple more, just to be stocked up.

It actually got me thinking...I wonder if I could take a new paint marker, open the body, empty it of paint, and replace the paint with whatever paint I wanted...any color from Tamiya Model Master, etc....it's likely there's something special about the type of paint that can be used in paint markers, but....it's the kinda thing I might experiment with sometime.

Also, I have a quick rant:

I began messing around with the kit-included blocks, because I had hoped to get away with using them, even though they seemed a little wonky.  Well, it's probably not going to happen.  Those little nibs on the sides that are supposed to keep the strop in place?  They might keep the line in place sorta, but they don't allow the strop to run in a straight line around the block...so it looks a bit zig-zaggy.  So I'm going to price out blocks and see if the cost is worth it to me.

And I know the rigging process is a long and arduous journey, most of which is a ways down the road.  BUT, There's a lot of pre-rigging (attaching blocks to masts and yards, etc.) that goes on during early assembly.  So I'll need to buy a bunch right now.  And though the Syren blocks look super-great, I think the ME stuff should be passable (and cheaper), so I may just go there.  

Since I'm not planning to go full-on with the rigging, I won't need to replace every block that came in the kit, but I will be going through the assembly and rigging instructions thoroughly at this point to get a list of quantities and types of blocks that I'll be using.

I think we talked about this before, but do the ME blocks come in a very *raw* state? Meaning, are they very sharp-edged and needing a lot of sanding, shaping, (staining or painting?) etc., or are they pretty much usable right off the shelf?  I know some people use the sanding tumbler device to smooth them off, but I wonder if that's just an OCD thing, or if it's necessary?

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Saturday, April 18, 2015 7:18 PM

Dave,

OCD, me? I used the ME blocks without rounding them or staining them on the Nina if you want to see what they look like.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, April 18, 2015 7:22 PM

I, too, have used them just as they are. They look fine to me. It might be more realistic to round them off, but that is far too much work for far too little improvement (in my humble opinion).

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, April 18, 2015 8:07 PM

Those Heller "blocks" and "deadeyes" are among the many reasons why I dislike that kit. I object to paying several hundred dollars for a kit and immediately throwing hundreds of parts of it in the trash.

Model Expo blocks vary a lot, according to the luck of the draw. I think they come from one of the HECEPOB companies. ME does sell a gadget for rounding them off, but I've never tried it.

Syren blocks are things of beauty. Do notice that they come (mostly) in packages of fifty.That's a lotta blocks.  (By my calculation, the difference in price for 1/8" blocks between ME and Syren works out to a nickel a block.) And remember: there's no reason to buy more than two or three packages at a time. Personally, I think they're worth it. But of course that's up to the individual modeler.

I do like ME deadeyes. I'm sure Syren's are beautiful, but they have to be put together. The walnut ones from ME are quite nice. So are the britannia metal deadeyes from Bluejacket.

Oh, one other thought....If you do want to buy something from Model Expo, the time to do it is before midnight tomorrow night. The company is having a store-wide 50% off sale. And that would make ME blocks a bargain.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, April 19, 2015 12:41 AM

Dave,

Going back to books you might want to look at or purchase, there is one I picked up a couple of months ago. The name is Historic Ship Models by Wolfram zu Monfeld. You want the English version, unless your German is better than mine. I picked mine up for about $23. Although written for wooden ship modelers in mind, it still has some valuable information, including rigging and deals with ships from different periods.

Not as in depth as Anderson, but nice visuals.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, April 19, 2015 10:39 AM

John,

I agree about the beauty of Syren blocks...from the pictures on their website they look absolutely awesome!  I priced out the difference to replace all the blocks in the SR kit, from ME (with the 50% off) it would be about 43 bucks plus shipping (not bad at all)...from Syren, it would be more like 110 plus shipping, but that doesn't include the 16 fiddle blocks (at 4.50 EACH, I'll make do with something else!)...110 is still not crazy expensive, but enough to give me pause for consideration.  Blocks, after all, are a tiny (but ubiquitous) detail for a model, and in my opinion they are are not *important* enough to warrant large cost.  So-so blocks would be fine for me, and I don't think the difference in quality between ME and Syren blocks would be glaring, but to the eye that knew better.

However, they're not terribly expensive, and I could easily buy some Syren blocks now, and some later...and MY eye would appreciate them.  I think I'll go with Syren, why not live a little? Plus I can share my impression of them with the forum.

I just bought a bunch of ME walnut deadeyes...they do look great!  I needed about 250 total deadeyes for the kit, so I bought them in bulk (150) packs from ME for the sweet 1/2 off price.  So it cost about 30 dollars to replace them all (plus I'll have many extra).  Only thing is, ME didn't have all the correct sizes (at least compared to the kits deadeyes), so I fudged a little.  I got 3 different sizes, 3.5mm, 5mm, and 7mm....the main and fore lower deadeyes should be 6mm, not 7, but they didn't have 6, so I hope 7mm don't look too out of scale on the channels!  They're pretty big.  But I think I can live with it.

Steve, I have the book you mentioned, and I keep it handy at all times!  Very informative.

I find Mondfeld to be a bit presumptuous and more than slightly purist with his regard to shipmodeling.  He makes a lot of statements like, "No ship model should ever ___"....he's a stickler!  A great teacher, and just a little bit preacher!

Regardless, that book is packed with info, I recommend it highly.

Thanks,

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, April 19, 2015 11:05 AM

I think you've made the right decision, buying the better product. I also support the buy-as-you-go approach, just so long as your source doesn't disappear (they probably won't).

The way I see these things, after investing 1,000 hours in this kit, your $ 70.00 premium for the better blocks works out to $ 0.07 per hour. Turn the heat down a degree.

I take the same approach with paint. Sure, we all have that sacred little tin of Polly S Chesapeake System Blue that we know is the only right color for 1943 1/350 USN aircraft, but in general good fresh paint for a model is worth the expense.

As for the blocks, now you are inoculated from the inevitable "i wish I'd listened to that voice in my head". After all it's not that 1967 Triumph Spitfire that almost runs that you are going to surprise your wife with.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, April 19, 2015 11:17 AM

What you've decided makes lots of sense, Dave. I don't know why ME's deadeyes are so much better than its blocks.

i believe the Syren fiddle hocks cost $4.50 for a package of six. Not bad. If Heller is right about the count (that's a mighty big If) you'd need three packages.

That you would have to apply the IFF (International Fudge Factor) when buying rigging fittings was pretty much inevitable. Just remember the two Golden Rules of a Rigging: If in doubt as to color, err on the dark side. If in doubt as to size, err on the small side.

The Mondfelt book is a good one all right, but I have reservations about it. I don't care for the THESE ARE THE RULES approach - especially from a guy who doesn't show us any of his own models. The book covers such a wide range of subjects that it can't deal with any of them in any depth. And the whole book is very, very European. That shows up in lots of places, including the materials it recommends.

On the other hand I don't know of any better introduction to ship modeling. I'm a big fan of Campbell's Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay, but it's pretty slim - and dated. Ben Lankford's How to build First-Rate Ship Models From Kits is pretty good, but also quite general.

One alleged beginner book that I do NOT recommend is Ship Modeling From Stem to Stern, by Milton Roth. That one's a disaster to be avoided at all costs.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, April 19, 2015 11:41 AM

Thanks, guys!

So I just placed an order from Syren for a pack each of 5mm single sheave boxwood blocks, and 5mm triple sheave boxwood.  There won't be any more need to use blocks for months to come, but I do need to *pre-rig* the bowsprit with blocks, so I just got the two types I'll need for that.  This way, I'll get my hands on some of their product, and I can just order more when the time comes....it's true, if I need to spend 30 bucks every few months for supplies, it's not a big deal.  Truthfully, I think the real cost will come down to rigging line, not blocks....I'm going to need a BUNCH of line by the time this is done!  Still, as GM says...Syren's probably not going anywhere, and the hours per cost is minimal.

Not sure if Boxwood is better or worse than Swiss Pear for blocks, they are the same cost, so I just went with Boxwood.

I have Roth's book as well...I read it once and put it back on the shelf.  It is a fun read, but I don't have a lot of faith in his info.  Seems more like a guy decided to write about how he likes to build models...lots of stories, and some good ideas for workshop setup, but it's more of a memoir, I think, than a reference book.

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, April 19, 2015 11:54 AM

For block making purposes the only big difference between box and pear is color. Box is light and yellowish; pear is a bit darker and slightly pinkish. They're both excellent materials for the purpose.

My ME 50%-off purchase was a good supply of box and cherry strip wood. They've been out of stock for months if not years. Figured I should stock up while I can - at a bargain price.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, April 19, 2015 1:47 PM

Based upon this discussion, I will have to try Syren's products. To be honest, I have never heard of them. If they are as good as everyone is saying, I will give them a try in my own building! Thanks!

Bill

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