"Correct" Color for an Early Elco 80' PT Boat/South Pacific Theater?

I thought PT boats were grey.

ikar01

I thought PT boats were grey.

They were many colors, depending on time and theater.

I don't have any definitive answers for the greens, sorry. A very contentious issue.

Thanks Tracy, if you can't give me a definitive answer then I'll go with what looks good to me.

Steve

Not all were green or gray...

Don’t know if you’ve come across this option nor can I say it would be any more correct than other options.  I picked this up for my LVT and LST kits but as you can see it is made primarily for the PT Boats.

The #2 and #3 Greens were also made by Testors Acrylics.

Stik,

Was there supposed to be a picture attachment? Just wondering if it was the zebra striped Elco that you were using as an example.

Deattilio,

Thanks, I actually have 2 sets of this set and plan on using it for the Merit 1/48 later version MTB that I have. I prefer using acrylics but ColourCoats are pretty accurate on colors.

Again, I am not sure if the #2 Green is the base color of the earlier boats or not. I am starting to wonder if the ColourCoats MTB Green is a match for #2 Green used as a base color on later boats and the Tropical Green is for the earlier boats.

I have a great deal of respect for Tracy and if he cannot give a definitive answer on the color then I am pretty sure no one can. I think part of the problem is that the colors were mixed in theater and close enough for jazz was good enough and that exact records were not kept during the early period of the war. I believe that just keeping the boats running and operating against the IJN and not worrying about whether each boat was the correct color was the order of the day. At least it would be if I was the CO.

Thanks again,

Steve

Don't take my word as gospel, camouflage is an area of (somewhat intense) interest but I'm not more than a passing PT fan. I did pull the BuShips PT camouflage files at NARA once, but there really wasn't much they kept specific to the SW Pacific. That means that the next step would be checking the records of those commands, but I haven't managed to do that yet and just don't have a definitive answer. My suspicion is that there are some / many boats early on that were painted with entirely local mixes and then later on things were more standardized. The AK set Deattilio posted is for a later paint scheme, however the Navy did have similarly named greens in 1941. They did reformulate and keep the same name with other paints throughout the war and I haven't yet checked to see if those match my Snyder & Short USN Paint Chips.

There's just been a lot of debate on the PT Boat Forum and elsewhere, acrimonious at times, and I've just preferred to stay out of it. I chose to try and answer questions through textual records and if photographic evidence is all that can be used, leave it as more "up in the air" by default in my book.

Steve, that was indeed the Zebra/Dazzle PT boat that I posted. Or at least tried to post. It showed up ok on my desktop. But my laptop has just the "x" box in its' place... I really hope that the site overhaul coming up fixes these sort of issues.

and I found this shot... but the color fade makes it hard to call on this two tone scheme

attempt #2 for dazzle boat

Tracy,

I promise not to take your word as gospel, but it does not disminish my respect for our research. I have done enough of it through under and grad school to know how crazy it can get. I still thank you for your input. Heck, by the time I finish weathering this model, hopefully people will be able to say that it is greenish......

Stik,

The dazzle pattern photo did not come through again, but I am on my iPad so I'll go check on the big computer in a bit. The two tone camo photo came out fine, so I am wondering if the dazzle pattern is SO effective that we just cannot see it?!

Thanks,

Steve

Both show up fine on my desktop. Of course that is the computer that I used to upload the photo. And I tried two different methods- copy the url and use the site image icon, and directly copy and paste the image. Ah well, go figure...

Stik,

Still not coming through on my desktop. Not sure what is going on.

Steve

OK, I went through my BuShips PT camouflage scans tonight and have a couple of pieces for you.

The earliest green camouflage I have documentation for is a January 1943 definition and formula for the tropic green system. Pretty sure the use of some sort of green paint pre-dates this as I have a memo that I haven't posted that basically summarized a telephone conversation in October of 1941 between BuShips and the Philadelphia Navy Yard (which was responsible for either paint development or testing) that discussed sending 200 gallons of "Haze Green" paint to the Atlantic Fleet.

The in the photo posted above is Ms 31 5P and used two greens (three if you count the deck paint).. Nevertheless, there were some patterns that used both blues and greens in paints. One pattern on my screen is Measure 32 7P, which features 5-L Light Gray, 5-O Ocean Gray, 20-G Deck Green, and MTB Green, which is described as "4 gallons 5-OG (Ocean Green) plus 1 Gallon 5-NG (Navy Green)."

Can you see me now?

Success! Just so everyone knows, that glorious eyesore is the "adaptor system," developed by Elco. It was painted on the boats of a couple of squadrons as well as the french cruiser Gloire. It was contemplated for use on other ships, as I've seen a design sheet for a class of destroyer, but as far as I know it was never applied to more than these.

Hello,

I'll just comment and move on inasmuch I have more important things which require my research time; PTs in the Southwest Pacific were in the Tropical Green system or in MTB green ... or, from my own site (www.ptboatworld.com): "One thing that a modeler has to remember is; even though the Navy may have had prescribed Measures for different camouflage schemes, and prescribed paints for those schemes, in the combat zones, crews may not have the time, supplies or the facilities to keep a scheme up to specs.

In many cases, as seen with the crews of the first Squadron 3, the crews may have had to utilize locally acquired paints, stealing it in a few instances.My opinion on this is definitely in the minority, but after talking to many veterans, I stand by my opinion."

And, PTs in the Pacific wore other schemes - such as Measure 31/5P and Measure 31/20L ... From my site:

"Other Schemes

Some other schemes carried by PT boats were:

Measure 31/5P - This scheme utilized Navy Green and Ocean Green.

Measure 31/20L - This scheme combined Black, Green #2 and Green #3."

Early Elco 80-footers coming from the factory were in overall gray  -  overall Navy Gray (No. 5) with Outside Dark Gray (No. 5-D) decks - from my website as well, "In 1942, the scheme initially applied to the Elco 80 footers utilized Navy Gray (#5) and Dark Gray (5-D)"

They could have also have been in Measure 1 as well, ... Overall Dark Gray (No. 5-D).

The bottom paint for all of these schemes was Copperoyd.

But, I'd go with one of the Green schemes.

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth.

Tim

Stik,

The dazzle came through! Man does that paint job hurt the eyes.

Tracy,

Thanks for the extra input, it is always appreciated. I would love to see the research when you get it finished.

Tim,

Thank you for the input you gave and I appreciate you taking the time for the information. It helped me make up my mind on using Tropical Green for the boat. I tried to access your site and the index bar shows up in the middle of the page. It could be that I was trying to view it on an iPad. I had lost your site address when our PC gave up the ghost. Thanks for posting the pictures of your Merit 1/48 later version MTB, it looked awesome.

Anyway, thanks again gentlemen for the information, pictures and input. I am having a blast building this model that I think I will do the later version when I finish this one. I am not sure if I'll post a WIP but I am taking pictures of the construction. I highly recommend either version for anyone wanting to build a nice sized Elco 80'. Merit did a really nice job with this kit and if the Yorktown is anywhere as nice, I'll have to bump the queue a bit.

Steve

Just in case anyone is wondering which model we're talking about here is a picture of the box. 

Steve - current plan is a big camouflage book after the Essex class book I started first is done. I kinda want to work on the Camouflage more, but I'm forcing myself to finish those projects in the order I started so that my writing projects don't wind up like my work bench!

Tracy,

I understand all too well! I hope you get done with the Essex book soon, I have a Trumpeter 1/350 Essex in my stash that I know will benefit greatly from your research. The Camo book sounds like a really nice project and I look forward to it.

Steve

Could be "done" as far as researching on the next trip (hopefully October). Last remaining part is trying to learn if there were official documents I can use about deck spotting so we can figure out some good accurate examples and the "whys'.

Camouflage will be difficult in that I have to balance the areas left I can research against "get it done!" I could literally spend another decade researching it, but that's ten whole years that people couldn't learn what I already have as well. The Bureau of Ships had camouflage files for every type, every class, and nearly every ship separately (so, a camouflage section for cruisers, and a separate section for Baltimore class Cruisers, and a separate section for USS Baltimore). That makes for a lot to go through, and that's just the Bureau of ships side. There's also Chief of Naval Operations, CINCPAC, CINCLANT, CINCSouWestPac, Fleet Maintenance Office, the Commandants of the various naval districts, Ship yards, ... I haven't figured out if there's a place where repair ship files were stored.

These can all be useful, because if I find the same record in two places, I can see by the date stamps how long it took to spread to point B, and how much longer it took to get to point B than A. So, bringing this back to PTs, when did BuShips issue a green paint formula to PT boats, and how long did that take to get to the squadrons fighting at the front. Once there, how long did it take them to procure these new paints? You can't make money doing that much research so it's never really been done, it takes someone doing it as a hobby as a long term project to try and find some of this stuff, but it may also be a wild goose chase.

It's a fun one though, to me.

I know exactly what your talking about Tracy.  After reading what you have on your website and being in the Navy, I know how insane it can be drilling down from the larger subject to the myriad subsets.

As I said before, I appreciate what you have done. The WWII camo site alone is worth it's weight in gold.

Steve

I feel sad for the next generation's Tracy White--they'll have to go through Type Commander reports, too.

They will have to sort through all the anecdotal evidence on things like "easter egg cammo" but with no accompanying policy statements.

No problem, Steve,

The Adapter Scheme - as applied to the boats of RON 10, ...

From www.ptboatworld.com, "a modification of this scheme was applied to a number of Elco 80 foot PT-103 Class boats, PTs 163 - 174. This modification utilized an yellowish green in lieu of the white stripes. The scheme proved to be unsuccessful and was painted over with a more appropriate scheme."

 

PTConsultingNHR

No problem, Steve,

The Adapter Scheme - as applied to the boats of RON 10, ...

From www.ptboatworld.com, "a modification of this scheme was applied to a number of Elco 80 foot PT-103 Class boats, PTs 163 - 174. This modification utilized an yellowish green in lieu of the white stripes. The scheme proved to be unsuccessful and was painted over with a more appropriate scheme."

That sounds like it would induce nausea on first sight...

No, no. The idea was for the Japanese to die laughing.

I won't comment  on it.  A little busy with class in my 2nd term of my Masters program online at SNHU.

PTConsultingNHR

I won't comment  on it.  A little busy with class in my 2nd term of my Masters program online at SNHU.

Why trouble yourself to post this in that case?

But I am curious to see what the yellow green shade is... it sounds so terrible to see that it would make a great "yes this was for real" build.

Try this book:

cover art

Allied

Torpedo Boats

by John Lambert

and

Les Brown

Reviewed by Sean Hert cover art

In this special, hard backed volume of the Shipcraft series, the topic is the Allied Torpedo Boat. This edition is twice the size of the standard book, and covers the pre-war and wartime evolution of the torpedo boat. Developments in horsepower and firepower, and the subsequent implementation thereof are discussed, giving ample coverage to both the Royal Navy and the United States Navy forces. Some of these developments benefitted both navies, while others reflected the differing missions and requirements of each service.

Book Contents

Coastal Forces Development 915-1945

Model Products

Modelmakers's Showcase

Colour Schemes

Construction

Armament

Appearance

Experimental Craft

Selected References

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CONCLUSIONS

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