Heller 1/200 Royal Louis

Don Stauffer

 

 

 

I've found that thinner is usually better.  It is getting harder these days to find thin thread (employee at Michaels said sewing getting to be less common hobby).  Usually one can find thread sizes for lower shrouds okay, but stuff for lighter rigging is tougher.

I find so many finished models that have too thick rigging, I find that ones with thinner rigging look better.  Also, it looks like you plan to paint rigging. 

One can make black lines look thinner by painting them with a dark gray rather than pure black. With long, thin lines, the contrast strongly affects our perception of size. Medium gray would look thinnest, pure white and pure black would look largest.

 

 

Thank you, I'll be going for the thinner white thread! And thanks for the info on the painting, I hadn't thought of that and will definitely be doing it!

Sigh, the words "Heller" and "well-fitting parts" never seem to be i nthe same sentence (or paragraph, fo r that matter).

Now, Heller's rigging instructions are notorius (search here for user=JTilley for some sharp-edged comments).  Apparently Heller's person in charge of creating rigging instructions learned everything they know on the topic  from studying wooden ships of the sorts found in in Spanish tourist traps.

I am remiss in not saying ealier to not fully assemble Heller masts, but to make them in sub assemblies (e.g. lower mast; top mast; topgallant) as that makes the rigging much easier.  This alos aloows you to get brass wire in them, too.  Telle est la vie modélisation.

One of the fiddely details that may make you life easier with the shrouds is to lay them a bit closer to prototype.  One the ship, as you face the deadeys, the first shroud goes up from the foreward most deadeye, up and around the mast and back down to the next deadeye aft.  Where the shroud passes around the mast, it's bound together with a lashing that is very close to the bottom of the top platform.

Then the opposite side shroud is laid over that in a stack.  Note that this makes for a neater "pile" of lines all jammed in there between where the top mast "doubles" the lower mast.

Now, don't try for all that detail--that's a 1/96 scale ship.

In a perfect world, it can be easier to make the shroud up off the kit, then form the eye, then pass that over the mast (befoe th top mast is assembled) one after the other, then bring the lines to the deadeyes one by one.

Malheureusement, l'mond n'est pas parfait.

Keep up the good work, you are doing just fine.  You will be ables to use these skills to tackle other projects.

PS, in full disclosure, my first ship ket was a Cutty Sark and it had the horrible Revell vinyl-coated thread ratlines.  Having no other instruction, I trapped the bottom "thread" in the plastic deadeye assemblies, and since this was before CA glue, I had to find a way to tie all the little ends of the threads around the top of the mast.  Threads covered in vinyl resist knotting, even more so with a jillion knots right next to them.  That kit got left behind in a move, and was not sore missed.  Sigh.

Seems like plenty of people have offered suggestions for your shroud thickness, and I would tend to agree, though if I could add two extra notes:

-For the lower shrouds, either of those line sizes seem fine to me.

-For the upper shrouds, I think you might consider going with something even thinner than either.  Once you get up there, the thickness of shrouds will become obviously oversized, and also the tension it will take to keep thicker line tight could cause issues with upper mast bending.....just my 0.02

Anyway, it's impressive you've made so much progress in such a short time!  My Cutty Sark is still sitting on the shelf, waiting for braces lol

Great work so far.  Sorry you've had to deal with things like misalignment of parts and other examples of Heller's *headscratchers*...I'd like to see what you can do with a nice old Imai sailing ship kit...they're among the best quality in terms of part fit and molding.

Dave

Hi Cathy,

Great work on this kit.  I have built it and as you have found out, it requires a lot of pre-filling, cutting, sanding, and fitting again of the rear galleries and much of the deck furnishings.  

Those masts and spars bend real easy.  I chose to use the ratline jig on this kit because its was a tit for tat trying to get the shrouds taunt without the masts bending.    Then when it came time to set the standing rigging, it was a mess, so I used the jig and tied up my pre-made ratlines after the standing rigging was done and the masts secured. I also built the Pheonix and had the same problem.  Also, as mentioned, use small diameter thread. I used a lot of coat thread on this kit because it was not so flexible.  

I have a few more of these Heller kits in the stash and swore that in the future, the masts and spars will be made from wood.  

Again, great work!!!

Scott

I must say, pretty impressive for a first time. Love the oil wash and dry brush used. You have done a lot in a short period of time, keep up the good work.

I agree with both don and G , the smaller thread would look better , this is a pic of my la glorieux , it's a slightly larger model than your's 1/150 , I think I used .45mm for themain rigging and .20mm for the ratlines .

and dk

DK grey look's more realistic than black , as don said .

I agree, the white is closer. But, it's hard to tell because the ship is such a small scale.

catheetiem

Hey everybody, I've run into a question I have for you guys!

 

I've started on rigging the shrouds, and I'm uncertain of the thickness I should be using. I was wondering what you guys thought, if the white thread looks better or if the green thread does (all will be black later).

 

I'm thinking the green might be a liiiiiittle too thick, but I'm worried the white may be too thin! I'd really appreciate your input; thanks so much!

 

 

 

I've found that thinner is usually better.  It is getting harder these days to find thin thread (employee at Michaels said sewing getting to be less common hobby).  Usually one can find thread sizes for lower shrouds okay, but stuff for lighter rigging is tougher.

I find so many finished models that have too thick rigging, I find that ones with thinner rigging look better.  Also, it looks like you plan to paint rigging. 

One can make black lines look thinner by painting them with a dark gray rather than pure black. With long, thin lines, the contrast strongly affects our perception of size. Medium gray would look thinnest, pure white and pure black would look largest.

Hey everybody, I've run into a question I have for you guys!

I've started on rigging the shrouds, and I'm uncertain of the thickness I should be using. I was wondering what you guys thought, if the white thread looks better or if the green thread does (all will be black later).

I'm thinking the green might be a liiiiiittle too thick, but I'm worried the white may be too thin! I'd really appreciate your input; thanks so much!

Good morning! Have another update, assembly has been started!

Hull assembly is done, but I ran into some trouble with gaps. Not sure if it's my issue or Heller's, but they're certainly there!



I put some putty in the gaps to help close them up!



So gaps taken care of, they were later filed down and painted over, look convincing enough now!



So all the decks and little pieces have been finished! One thing that I noticed is that the instructions direct you to cement the forward deck before placing the lower deck guns? Makes no sense, it is nearly impossible to add the guns after placing the upper deck.

I also decided to cement the gun doors in place, for some stupid reason. The instructions called for it at this point, I was wary because I knew I'd be knocking them all off during the rest of the build. But noooo, I thought Oh, well Heller likely knows better than me, better listen to them. Well that was a mistake haha, I've knocked almost all of those gun doors off at this point, so those will be re-cemented when the build is almost over. I chose to leave the rudder off for the time being for the same reason.



So after that I started assembling the masts, which went easily enough. Although I will note the very top part of the mizzenmast did not fit into the cap piece (I'm sorry, I know no terminology at all, it's the upper dark brown part that attaches the two parts of the masts together) and had to be shaved down significantly to fit.
Boats were also glued together.



NOW I ran into the big problem. I was dry fitting the masts and while the mainmast and mizzenmast fit just fine, the holes in the top and bottom decks for the foremast do not align. I was trying to figure out if that is my mistake or if it's just the way the model is; I think it might just be the model, because the other two masts line up perfectly.
Sooooo I came to the decision that I'd have to remove the upper fore deck. Uuuuugh!



I scratched out the area where the hole for the mast should actually be, significantly farther back than the molded one.



Once removed, I lined up the deck in the proper position and fitted the mast into the top and bottom decks. Aaaaah so crooked! So I thought I'd move the top deck up and see if aligning the holes in the bottom and top decks would work (at this point I'm still trying to avoid making a new hole)



Nope, that doesn't work! Then nothing else in the forecastle fits at all. So it looks like I'll be making a new hole.



Okay, there it is, all finished! I've dry fitted it and it seems to work just fine, so hopefully it'll remain that way when I rebuild the whole thing.

I'd be curious to hear if anyone else who built this model ran into these issues. Hopefully this will help someone else out if they decide to build a royal louis!
After re-assembling the forecastle I'll likely get started on the rigging! I'll be consulting the resources Steve posted constantly, they're going to be an incredible help!

crackers

Just out of curiosity, I just wonder what ship the Heller model is supposed to represent. The fourth French ship of that name was a 106 gun vessel of the Sans-Pareil class constructed from 1757 to 1762. In August 1773, she was so badly deteriorated from dry rot, that she was demolished without seeing any combat action. A 1/8th scale model of this ship is at the Paris Naval Museum. The fifth ROYAL LOUIS, also of 106 guns, was launched in 1780 and elevated to 110 guns in 1784. After the overthrow of the French royalty in 1793, this ROYAL LOUIS was named REPUBLICAN and saw only one naval action under her new name. While entering Brest Harbor, on December 1794, ROYAL LOUIS was accidentally run aground with the loss of 10 crewmen. The next two days, storms demolished the grounded wreck.

Happy modeling     Crackers 

 

Oh wow, that's fascinating! 

I believe this would be the 5th royal Louis, based on what Heller wrote about the ship. 

This is what Heller wrote under "history", translated in Google:

" it is thanks to the kindness of the navy's historical service in paris that it has opened its doors to the technicians of the heller company, that the reconstruction of the royal louis has been possible. 

design of the hull, the distribution of the artillery, the rigging were taken from a statement of forms from the comte d'estaing dated September 25, 1772. the plans of construction were established by monsieur j.b. ollivier, famous for its naval architecture.

The royall Louis is a first rank. It is armed with 120 guns of which 32 of caliber 36 each weigh about 5 tons. its length at the water's edge is 68 m., with a height of 96 m., the height of the grsnd mast from the keel to the apple [I assume this should be stern haha] is 74 m. 

The royal louis in 1779, 1780, the flagship of the blue-white squadron belonging to the squadron of america, known as the count of estaing. this ship is remarkable for its forms and more particularly for the richness and finesse of its castle whose balconies are true masterpieces."

So based on that I think this would be the 5th ship. Although they said they consulted the Navy's historical service in Paris, so perhaps some of it is based on the 4th ship as well! 

ejhammer

Wood tones and graining look very good. Nice work! EJ

 

Thank you!!

steve5

your motoring along nicely cathy , I'm enjoying this .

 as captmac said the french do their rigging differently to the english , this guy is great , he demonnstrate's it fully on a french 74 , 1/150 scale .hope it help's .

http://www.pete-coleman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=863&sid=e2492d8e68c96fdd0fb09e8553432f7c

steve5

 

Thanks! I'm free over the summer so hopefully things can keep moving along! 

And thank you so much for that link, I think it'll be a huge help and I'll definitely be consulting it often!! 

Just out of curiosity, I just wonder what ship the Heller model is supposed to represent. The fourth French ship of that name was a 106 gun vessel of the Sans-Pareil class constructed from 1757 to 1762. In August 1773, she was so badly deteriorated from dry rot, that she was demolished without seeing any combat action. A 1/8th scale model of this ship is at the Paris Naval Museum. The fifth ROYAL LOUIS, also of 106 guns, was launched in 1780 and elevated to 110 guns in 1784. After the overthrow of the French royalty in 1793, this ROYAL LOUIS was named REPUBLICAN and saw only one naval action under her new name. While entering Brest Harbor, on December 1794, ROYAL LOUIS was accidentally run aground with the loss of 10 crewmen. The next two days, storms demolished the grounded wreck.

Happy modeling     Crackers 

your motoring along nicely cathy , I'm enjoying this .

 as captmac said the french do their rigging differently to the english , this guy is great , he demonnstrate's it fully on a french 74 , 1/150 scale .hope it help's .

http://www.pete-coleman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=863&sid=e2492d8e68c96fdd0fb09e8553432f7c

steve5

Alrighty, have another update! All the weathering is done, and cannons have been assembled (phew, that was tiresome)

Some of the pictures came out a little yellow, but I think they do the job well enough.

Cannons all finished up!

Time to get started on assembly now! I think it might take me a bit longer than I'm used to; the instructions are hard to follow and I think leave a little to be desired!

CapnMac82

I fmemory serves, the vessle was a flagship, so there would have been a lot of effort to eep her pretty clean.  Not pristine, per se, but pretty clean.  Water line, and hull bottom could be a bit grungy, though.

For the rigging, you will want to arm yourself  with references to French rigging (which is different from English rigging).  The kit rigging instructions may leave a lot to be desired.

As a first ship, and at the ratehr small scale, I'd recommend not fitting ratlines on the shrouds, not at first.  I'd be inclined to not put in jeers or halyards as a general rule  I'd skip footropes, too.  I'd likely only use three thicknesses of line for rigging in black and tan (ok, so there'd be an anchor line, too).  (For perspective, my 1/96 Constitution eas rigged with 7 different sizes of running rigging and 8 for standing.)

Keeping it simple, especially with three masts and an a bowsprit to rig will help you not lose your marbles.  Keep in mind that, viewing the model from 12" away is the same as being 200' away in scale.

You've shown excellent skill so far, so I have every confidence that you can see this through.

 

Thank you for the advice, I'll definitely keep it in mind! And yeah, the kit rigging instructions aren't exactly the best!

I fmemory serves, the vessle was a flagship, so there would have been a lot of effort to eep her pretty clean.  Not pristine, per se, but pretty clean.  Water line, and hull bottom could be a bit grungy, though.

For the rigging, you will want to arm yourself  with references to French rigging (which is different from English rigging).  The kit rigging instructions may leave a lot to be desired.

As a first ship, and at the ratehr small scale, I'd recommend not fitting ratlines on the shrouds, not at first.  I'd be inclined to not put in jeers or halyards as a general rule  I'd skip footropes, too.  I'd likely only use three thicknesses of line for rigging in black and tan (ok, so there'd be an anchor line, too).  (For perspective, my 1/96 Constitution eas rigged with 7 different sizes of running rigging and 8 for standing.)

Keeping it simple, especially with three masts and an a bowsprit to rig will help you not lose your marbles.  Keep in mind that, viewing the model from 12" away is the same as being 200' away in scale.

You've shown excellent skill so far, so I have every confidence that you can see this through.

David_K

Impressive!

I especially like the painting on the hull...

Much of the time, I count on weathering to help *blend* the paint scheme, and sort of bring it all together...it usually does the trick!  What type of weathering will you use?

Dave

 

Thank you!! And yeah that's exactly what I'm hoping for! I usually do a pretty diluted oil wash and then drybrush with the oils.

Impressive!

I especially like the painting on the hull...

Much of the time, I count on weathering to help *blend* the paint scheme, and sort of bring it all together...it usually does the trick!  What type of weathering will you use?

Dave

Thanks everyone for the kind words! I've made some progress over the past couple of days, all the painting is finished.

 So the base painting is all done! I might go back in with the gold on the transom and fix it up a bit. The next step is the weathering (the most stressful for me, but also my favorite!)

 I'm not too crazy about the colors of the ship, but hopefully they'll come together a bit better once they're weathered. Thanks for looking, hope everybody has a great weekend!

Awesome! And yeah, the instructions are a hassle! Google translate has been a lifesaver haha. 

And thank you! The grain I etched in isn't as detailed as the molded grain and it's definitely out of scale, but hopefully it won't be too noticeable from a distance!

Welcome and great start.  Keep up the good work.  Patience is the key.

Good Luck!

Bob

Thank you! 

Cathy,

     I have the kit but barely opened the box so I will be a faith-full follower here.

     I love Heller's Sailing Ships based on the original vessel. Hate having to learn French to follow some of the instructions though.

  I'll be following along. Thanks for starting this Thread.

                Jim (Nino)

 P.S.  Great idea for the grain effect on the lower hull.  Heller has a few kits where the wood grain is missing.  With the early molding techniques I can understand why they left it off the very bottom of some hulls but I think they could have added it to the lower sides on this kit.

Great to see a new modeler here cathy. I haven't done this particular ship myself , so really looking forward to this . If you need help , these guy's are great . To

Thanks! And yeah, except for the wood grain thing I've been impressed so far!

Looking good so far.  Those 1:200 Heller sailing vessels are nice kits.