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  • Member since
    March 2020
  • From: South Florida
Which manufacturer
Posted by Having-fun on Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:21 PM

 

I just finished the building of La Pinta, by Artesania Latina. I found the build unnecessary complicated by the way the instructions that came with this ship are written, while some items were well documented, there were several that were confusing and even missing details.

 

To do part of the rigging I had to dig out some of my old instructions from the plastic ships I have previously build, just to find were certain rope was to supposed to be attached to.

 

Apparently I am not the only one that have gone into trouble with Artesania Latina kits due to their vague instructions, so I have a question, I am planing to do next either the Nina of the Santa Maria. The questions is: From which manufacture should I buy my next Columbus wood ship?

 

Thanking the good members of this blog in advanced

 



 

Joe

 

  • Member since
    March 2022
  • From: Twin cities, MN
Posted by missileman2000 on Thursday, February 2, 2023 9:03 AM

I don't know their entire line, but I find Model Shipways a cut above most of the European stuff.

I know they only do smaller creaft, but Midwest kits are very good.  Planks die cut, very good instructions.  If one of their kits meets anyone's fancy, I can recommend the company.

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Thursday, February 2, 2023 9:53 AM

Artesiana Latina kits are among those termed Hideously Expensive Central European Plank On Bulkhead (HECEPOB) kits by the late professor Tilley.   Instructions in HECEPOB kits are generally lacking and are written by people for whom English is not the first language. 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Friday, February 3, 2023 12:16 PM

EdGrune
are written by people for whom English is not the first language.

More likely from reading a poor translation into some other language, before being auto-converted to English.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Friday, February 3, 2023 12:26 PM

Having-fun
just to find were certain rope was to supposed to be attached to.

Wel Artistic Latrine instructions are not the best, by even the most charitable measure of them.  (Are they better than Heller?  Maybe.)

There's also the problem that the knowledge of 15-16th Century rigging is largely interpretive.  As in, being taken from woodcuts, painting, tapestries, and the like.  Measurements, methods, even regional differences are all terra incognita.

So, it's not like there are any blueprints or the like that could guide AL at all (even if they were inclined to that).

 

As to other choices, I have this vague rememory that Mantua (maybe) had a Santa Maria, but, no idea what scale, or fidelity (again, what is "accurate" from 1495?).

Now, there are some intersting wood kits coming out (still) from Ukraine, and one of those makers (Stella or maybe Maris) may have Columbus' ships.

Your Mileage May Vary

  • Member since
    March 2020
  • From: South Florida
Posted by Having-fun on Friday, February 3, 2023 1:27 PM

CapnMac82

 

 
Having-fun
just to find were certain rope was to supposed to be attached to.

 

Wel Artistic Latrine instructions are not the best, by even the most charitable measure of them.  (Are they better than Heller?  Maybe.)

There's also the problem that the knowledge of 15-16th Century rigging is largely interpretive.  As in, being taken from woodcuts, painting, tapestries, and the like.  Measurements, methods, even regional differences are all terra incognita.

So, it's not like there are any blueprints or the like that could guide AL at all (even if they were inclined to that).

 

As to other choices, I have this vague rememory that Mantua (maybe) had a Santa Maria, but, no idea what scale, or fidelity (again, what is "accurate" from 1495?).

Now, there are some intersting wood kits coming out (still) from Ukraine, and one of those makers (Stella or maybe Maris) may have Columbus' ships.

Your Mileage May Vary

 

 

As you stated, AL instructions are not very good, the written parts of them, uses a lot of nautical technical names of which, for the most part, I am ignorant of, the graphics are photos which are not very sharp and AL decided to put lines and numbers on top to supposedly "clarify" then but actually makes then a lot harder to follow.

 

I am able to read Spanish, but that did not help much because, again, the writer uses a lot of technical names of the different parts of the ship.

 

While researching were to buy my next ship, I notice that different manufactures shows components of the same ship in different locations, so, you are correct about that different manufactures made the kit in many cases guessing were things are supposed to go. I guess this is due to what you mention that, since this is a ship build back in the 15th century, there is little, if any documentation, on how actually it was build so the manufacturer has to do a lot of guessing.

 

I saw a Mantua Santa Maria (scale is 1:50) that looks good but they are asking $205 for it, I have to see if my Admiral gives the budget to buy it. As for La Nina, it appears to be back order from all the sellers that I found.

 

Thank you for kind comments and until next time.

 

Joe

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, February 4, 2023 1:33 PM

Having-fun
the writer uses a lot of technical names of the different parts of the ship.

I'm not entirely convinced the author is even using correct maritime terminoogy even in Spanish.  Or Italian.  Such is life.

It's comlicated enough in the "English" verion of nautical terminology, as it's a polyglot of loan-words crow-barred into English.

Starboard comes from Norse, and refers to the gunwale (topmost hull reinforcing plank) to which one applies the steering oar.  Crudely, it's the steering-board plank (side).

You put the opposite side, the larboard, the lading/loading "board" up against a pier or quay to load, so as to not damage that steering oar.

"Larboard" sounds too much like "starboard" so the loading side of the ship gained the name of where the pier is, geographically--"port."  Which we get from porto/puerto/porta.

Windlass comes from a jumble of Dutch/German as rendered by Scandanavians speking English.  Capstan comes from Dutch.  Stern is Germanic.  "Poop deck" comes from French poupe, meaning rear or rearward.

"Bow" is literaly from "bough" refering to the limb-cut framing at the forward part of a vessel.  Spar is German, Mast is Dutch-Norse.  Yard is Anglo-Saxon with some Norse/viking thrown in. (Yardarm refers to the reduced-diameter extensions at the ends of the yards, the better to fit lines over, and is a post-Columbian bit of technology.)

Having-fun
Mantua

Is not bad, but, does have a habit of just piling in whatever stock "bits" they warehouse on a per-kit basis.  So, if a given kit needed 8.5mm deadeyes* well, they don't stock that size, so you get 10mm ones instead.

It's very much like a pile of scratch-build parts, with some bulkhead bits ut by die-stamp or scrollcutting, and "here's what it looks like finished, Enjoy!"  It's, to be very charitable, very much like working in a shipyard.   That's the nature of wooden kits, especially the HECPOBs.  The laser-cut kits are an improvement on this, as more parts are cut--but the fitting is all on you.

Ohla has a great channel for wooden kits, and she is a magician at them:  https://www.youtube.com/@OlhaBatchvarov

__________________________
*Deadeye is an variation on Bullseye which comes from the nose ring fit to a bull.  It's "dead" for being closed, and not open.  Similarly a non-opening window on a ship is a "deadlite" for not operating.

  • Member since
    March 2020
  • From: South Florida
Posted by Having-fun on Sunday, February 5, 2023 4:56 PM

I have found 2 more companies that sell wood version of the Santa Maria: Amati and a company that I have never hear of before: Lllunimon

Has any one ever purchased a model from this company?

What about Amati, Do they produce a decent model? The prices are about the same, between 205 and 220 US.

Thanks

Joe

  • Member since
    March 2020
  • From: South Florida
Posted by Having-fun on Wednesday, February 8, 2023 11:53 AM

I have found a Santa Maria by Amati, the scale is 1:65 and it is price at $205 in amazon.

Do Amati produces quality kits? How are their instructions? Can some one in this blog help me with this?

I do not want to make another mistake in the ship selection.

Thanks

Joe

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Thursday, February 9, 2023 8:06 AM

Hi!

      Personally, if I am going to buy wood I go with Bluejacket Shipcrafters. They cater to the American market and they are knowledgeable where ships are concerned. They do not confuse or drop steps for convenience. They give you what you purchase, A ship model in wood, You Can Build! HECEBOPS are to chancy and Expensive!

  • Member since
    March 2020
  • From: South Florida
Posted by Having-fun on Thursday, February 9, 2023 10:03 AM

Tanker-Builder

Hi!

      Personally, if I am going to buy wood I go with Bluejacket Shipcrafters. They cater to the American market and they are knowledgeable where ships are concerned. They do not confuse or drop steps for convenience. They give you what you purchase, A ship model in wood, You Can Build! HECEBOPS are to chancy and Expensive!

 

I checked Bluejacket Shipcrafters, they do have a nice selection of ships, but, they do not have the Santa Maria.

Thanks for the info.

Joe

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Friday, February 10, 2023 1:53 PM

Having-fun
What about Amati, Do they produce a decent model?

From what I saw in the box, it was halfway between AL and Mantua shapes are a bit cruder, and dimensions are a tad bit more sketchy.

Quality of documentation all about the same sadly.

Amati tends to make things to even millimeter increments too.  If, say, a rail ought be 1.5mm thick, you are going to get 2mm material to represent it.

Which does not sound like much, but at 1/65 every millimeter is 65 scale mm, so that half millimeter is more than 30mm in scale, or around an inch-and-a-quarter's difference.

Amati also makes their belaying pins too short in the tailstock (which is likel due to how their duplicating lathe turns them), which not only looks dumb overall, but when run through a too-thickpin rail leaves curst all to belay a line to.

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Saturday, February 11, 2023 9:44 AM

Hi Joe!

     Sorry to hear that. I guess if you want a really nice Santa Maria you need to find the one that was put out years ago by ENTEX, I think it was. Yes, it's plastic in 1/96 scale but you can do what I did, and use it as a Buck onto which you overlay wood planks. Full wood decks and fittings are then used to finish it out. I replied to Missileman2 below and in the reply i remembered the other company putting out the model, It was IMAI!

    The wood kits of her I have seen in most cases are a different as Cats. Side by Side Mantua's model and Amati's are as different as a mismatched pair of them can be. Remember in most cases the model comanies use info from the museums that have models and they may still in the case of a ship like that,  Be speculative creations at best!

     Not much exists from those days. Why? Ship and Boat builders back then didn't have plans to go by. They knew a type and built by experience and eye. What worked once will work again so they built that way. Many Admiralties built based on a model that was made to show what the finished ship should look like. Then it was up to the yard to duplicate that in real life and size. Like musicians "Playing by ear" that's the way ships were built back then.

       Yes! They knew how, but it wasn't till way after the Armada and the Ships of the Line in Britian that actual plans were drawn up. Many times modified so much to work that the original plans meant nothing!

  • Member since
    March 2022
  • From: Twin cities, MN
Posted by missileman2000 on Sunday, February 12, 2023 9:09 AM

In addition, the SM was not a naval ship or owned by Spain.  Chris was a free-lancer, so there was no reason to have data to give to any goverment.  I doubt he even had much documentation himself.

 

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Sunday, February 12, 2023 10:03 AM

Hi Missleman2;

      I have the sneaking suspicion that the Santa Maria was more fashioned like a large "COG" ( a larger version of the freight ship of the day.)And "Cogs" like houses differed somewhat each other depending on country of origin.

       I think you may be right.The idea of independant exploration was rather foolish at the time. Many stories have been told, I'm sure, and we aren't really sure of the politics and actions of those involved. The ships certainly would not have been top of the line either!

 Just as I was going to another thread I thought of the name of the other manufacturer that made some very nice "Stainable" Plastic ships in 1/96 and it was IMAI. They even had a surface texture that made them feel like sanded Basswood! Yes! I said "Stainable". The instructions even told you how! And they were molded in a very light almost Basswood color.!!

  • Member since
    March 2020
  • From: South Florida
Posted by Having-fun on Sunday, February 12, 2023 2:55 PM

 

Well, I was going to go with the AL Santa Maria, but, it is back ordered. I know that I said the AL instruction are not very good, but, the other alternative, Amati, apparently also has poor documentation. Since I was familiar with AL documentation, I was going to purchase the AL Santa Maria, but, It is back ordered.

Now I am trying to decide my next move, either purchase the Amati model, wait for the AL model to become available, or, purchase a different ship all together.

I going to sleep on this for a few days.

Thanks for all the responses.

Joe

  • Member since
    March 2020
  • From: South Florida
Posted by Having-fun on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 8:51 PM

 

 

Well, a decision has been made!

 

After a lot of research and head scratching, I decided (With the help of the Admiral) to order the Occre HMS Beagle ($219.99 in Amazon) I will wait until Artesania Latrine release the Santa Maria and them I may order it. Will see.

 

I took a look at the instructions on the Beagle and appears to be a bit better than AL and Amati, the reviews in Amazon did mention that they need more work on the instructions, but, as the good members of this blog have stated, all of them need a lot of work.

 

Will see. Amazon claim that I will receive the model on Feb 20, once I have it I will start a build tread on it.

 

Thanks every one for the help I have received

 

Until then

 

Joe

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2010
Posted by rob44 on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 2:23 PM

The modeling site Ships of Scale

https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/

 

has extensive tutorials, build blogs and reviews of wooden ship models. It hink it is extremely helpful for anyone building a wooden ship.

 

Rob

  • Member since
    March 2020
  • From: South Florida
Posted by Having-fun on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 9:31 PM

rob44

The modeling site Ships of Scale

https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/

 

has extensive tutorials, build blogs and reviews of wooden ship models. It hink it is extremely helpful for anyone building a wooden ship.

 

Rob

 

The site looks very interesting, I saved the link for future reference.

Thanks

Joe

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Thursday, February 16, 2023 6:53 AM

CapnMac82

 ..."Poop deck" comes from French poupe, meaning rear or rearward...

More etymological fun-that goes back to the Latin, puppis, meaning the stern of a ship.

There is a constellation, Puppis, which combines with Carina, (keel and hull) and Vela (sails) to make the old constellation Argo Navis, Jason's ship.  That's how I first learned that term, years ago, through astromony.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

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