Conversion complete(this time for sure): USS Arizonas pre WWI

that might be something like linoleum on that deck giving the darker color.

Dang it Dave! I'm sure you're right... Makes sense that blue decks weren't a thing until airpower was. Looks like I'm destined to have a sedate battleship gray & teak model. Well at least there'll be some color below the waterline.

EDIT:
Ok - but... Check the below picture out - the superstructure decking around the tower bridge suporting the two 5 inch deck guns. It certainly looks darker and like it could be blue.

go thru this link http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/39a.htm as you'll see the decks are not blue as that is a ww2 thing because of aircraft that was not prevalent at sea during ww1.

Gregoblv thanks for the information. I'm on board with standard grey#5 for the hull, superstructure and yes the turrets . But you mention two things that I haven't heard before, and I like - so I hope you're on to something.

1 The vent insides were still painted a red hue into the 30s

2 The deck was blue

Any ideas on the shade of blue? Sea blue or navy would be my guess. Also any thoughts on if the deck were only blue during WWI? Making it a wartime color choice?

Thanks for the information guys, please keep it coming if you've got any!

CapnMac82

 

 

JoeSMG

This one again makes me ask what color are her turrets? I'm sure you are right about all the rest of her, that could easily be Standard Navy Gray #5 though it seems a little dark.

 

 

We run into the ever-present problem from period photos--they were taken and printed so as to render the best visual contrast the camera, filme, lighting, and the photographer could manage.  Which was further "cranked upon" when the negative was "exposed" to print the photo.

Now, poking an eyball on the Canal photo, a couple of reference items pop out.  Those would be the bloomers on the guns and the shade tarp over the forecastle.  Those appear to be an unpainted 'raw' canvas, which is going to be a very pale whitish gray.

That gives a place to start comparing the turret color.

This time frame encompasses when "Range Clocks" and "Formation firing" were still common doctrine.  So, there is the possibility that the "off side" of the turret have vertical stadia stripes on them in #5 or even Black

This is USS California for reference

Now, if those turrets are a lighter color is ajudgement call, that's a somewhat over-exposed photo.
And, here's USS Mississippi

It's odd that the documentation for the paint scheme is so scanty, as it appears to be pretty common, here's USS New York i nthe Canal

With the distinctly pale turrets.

Your Mileage May Vary

 

At the time of these photos the ships were painted all over the same color with the exception of the deck that was a bluish color over the teak they were made of.

As has been stated 'color' and 'shade' is a subjective matter with B&W photos, so the best you can do is look close and match shades with other parts of the ship. Also you must understand the shapes you are looking at and how they would affect the shade of the paint.  

First the sides of the Arizona's turrets were slanted a great deal. In fact all of the battleships turrets of the time were. That means they would catch more light and reflect it towards you eyes than the other parts of the ship. 

With these points noted, the photos of all three of these ships show the turrets as being lighter, but knowing they were all over the same color it would have to be the reflected light that made the so. In addition the pictures of the Mississippi and the New York seems to be very light, but the cutout 'deck' area at the casements has the same bright shade also and we must assume that it is painted the same color as the side of the ship which is much darker. So I would say that the turret is the same color as the rest of the ship.

As for the silver turrets I would say that was most likely an instructions issue, either on purpose(I have never seen that) or a goof(never seen that either). When many of these kits were originally made the manufacturers were not building them for scale modelers like us. They were made for kits to build and there was not many books that were available to those kids to tell them how the ships looked for real. I know I was there and my local library had nothing. 

As for the ventalators, I remember seeing color pictures of the 30's and they were a dark red or maroon on the inside.

But it is your model and you paint is as you see fit and ignore any old fart, or not so old fart, who says you are wrong. Just have fun.

I hope this has helped, 

Greg OB

do you have drawings for the cagemasts as i have some if you need?

In theory it can print details as small as .05mm but not structures - the cage masts are kind'a both, the many thin rods make up the structure but may be too weak to print the whole mast in one shot. I'll not be surprised if the first few attempts end up stuck to the bottom of the resin vat in a heap... If so, I can either thicken them which I would hate to do as they are already too thick, or I can slice the masts up vertically into smaller chunks then glue and stack them back together.

I still have hope that they will print in on piece. I've already thickened the rods well past scale but not so much that they are stupid looking (I hope) Will be an interesting test for the printer, an original Elegoo Saturn.

Very curious how that 3D model will be created,

Bill

how fine of a print can you do as thinking about the cagemasts framework?

Nope, that's actually a 1/450 scale USS Texas I 3d printed and assembled.
https://scalemodelguy.com/index.php/uss-texas-battleship-v2/

The 1917 Arizona 3D design is coming along well though I'm thinking It will be a devil to print, lots of filigree parts like the cage masts etc. Will likely take a few print efforts to dial in the thickness of things not to mention the fit onto the cutback Revell hull. The thickness of things typically ends up somewhere between reality and what will reliably print. Hopefully it will warm up soon, so I can try printing it and see what I end up with.

Joe, is that your current built model of the Arizona as your avatar?

TB, how are you going the remove the blisters & fill in the voids resulting from the blisters removal? are you going to put the armor belt back on after fixing the hull like i did on my non-blister Tennessee?

Sorry Dave I got confussed and thought you were doing the pre/post WWI dreadnought fleet. And I know you're 100% correct about the planking though I've seen some good looking smaller scale builds that use wooden decking... but yeah at less then a 1mm/plank width, it couldn't be acurate.

i'm doing the ww2 /post ww2 time period so will try to use the color schemes of that period. don't think they make 1/429 scale cagemasts in 3d format.

Joe, if the planks on the real ship was 6" wide then divide by 200 scale gets you a plank .03" wide so not really feasible.

TB at 1/200 I've been thinking about your project, you've got yourself a big canvas to work with. Arizona must be just over 3 foot long at that scale and wooden deck planking becomes a real option that big! 1/200 is all around way friendlier to traditional scratch building. How far along are you?

Hi Tanker,

I get that, I wouldn't recommend them to most folks. The work sunk into learning a design tool, then actually creating desirable objects and successfully printing them, can be frustrating and painful, more so, if you don't have a familiarity with the technology and enjoy doing those types of activities. Then you have the hazardous waste, toxic fumes and solvents to deal with, if you chose to go with a resin printer. For lots of reasons they're not for everyone.

I’m surprised an old sea dog such as you doesn’t have a few thoughts on the paint scheme on the 1916 Arizona. Are you in the all Standard #5 camp too? I’m starting to think that is the case – curse those deceptive black and white photos!

Aha!

 See Joe! I like printers for the idea of the Cage Masts. But that's one of the few times I would find a use for it. The way I do things a printer would actually not be cost effective.

are you going to 3d print that casement section or scratch build it out of plastic sheet? i have the topview drawing of that main deck showing those casements & the plans of a 1916 Arizona i copied off ebay if you need.

This is the belnder design of the parts I intend to replace.

It's far from done but should give you an idea of what I had planned to do.

armor belt https://catalog.archives.gov/id/75840436

never mind the hull as i have an idea on that but do you think you are capable of replacing everything from the main deck & up minus the main turrets & their barbetts & most of the funnel?

Joe, how are you with scratch building as removing the current model bulges is really not that hard as i did it on my Tennessee conversion from the Arizona. i cut the bulges out & filled the holes with 1mm(.0 40") sheet plastic then put the new armor belt back on. is that your site that you posted that model Arizona from? because if so then i will send you my pics of what i have done. are you using plans or what to do the kitbash to the earlier Arizona?

Greg that is a great idea! - I hadn't heard that Arizona had experimental aircraft handling trials. I'll definitely bake that into the conversion. Assuming my hull modification for the casemates works out, if I can't get a respectable result on that, I'll likely bag the conversion and straight up design and print the whole model (I’d still keep the aircraft & turret platform). But doing this conversion has been in the back of my head for years, far longer than 3d printers have been a thing, so I do want to give it a solid effort. That said, Dave's point on the torpedo bulges really stung. I can't see me pulling off their removal to my satisfaction, so that's already a feather in the "just print it" cap. I'll just do the hull as planed and see how I feel with the results. Thankfully Revell didn't make them as obvious as they likely were.

The inside of that vent does look slightly darker, but I spent hours last night Googling for period paintings of our Dreadnoughts, thinking they may have captured the colors of vents and turrets. Nada! First I’m surprised at how rare battleship paintings of this period are. I think the newfangled flying machines got all the artistic love & attention. The few I did find were rendered too small to make out the vents but none showed the turrets as significantly lighter, which was disappointing.

All that said – If anyone has info or an opinion please give it a shout out.

JoeSMG

I agree Greg, and wouldn't have given it a second thought. But I was looking closely (maybe too closely) at the picture of 1916 Arizona that Dave had linked, and the insides of the funnels are in direct sun but I thought they might be a shade darker, maybe not, but had to ask.

Joe, don't know whether you'd seen this one or not, a Navsource photo 'ca. 1920' showing fly-off trials w/a Nieuport 28 fighter mounted on a platform on one of Arizona's gun turrets [which -- hint, hint -- might be a really cool thing to model ], with part of a ventilator cowl conveniently visible. Again, no expertise claimed, and no suggestions offered, as tonal comparisons in b/w photos are always a minefield, but at least it gives you one more 'look' w/which to draw your conclusions.

https://navsource.org/archives/01/039/013920v.jpg

Cool project you've embarked on!

Okay.

        Now here is the conundrum.Many folks ,some even experts in the printing fiels couldn't tell what colors were used on the Arizona in any of those shots. In some She is obviously very light grey. In Others she appears dark Grey(Or it could be Fleet Blue) and so on. The ventilator cowls were either near maroon or black. I have only seen the Texas one time with the throats painted a light color. That went away fast after a group of veterans had their re-union on her!

       It seems the Arizona continues to hold mysteries for us ship modelers. I guess that's why she stands out among the ships back then ,Besides the aweful thing that happened that day,Even then there were questions about turret colors and Turret top colors.The "Blister" in the stern was done on the "New York'. Now about the Armor Belts, frankly I have never had folks mention those.

       Four client Arizonas later and I can tell you they were all different, but I could not convince any of my clients to do the Cage Mast version! So with a set of bad plans I am going to(I have already started her!) build a 1/200 scale version,  and make all the changes to back date her to that era. For me! 

JoeSMG

Something caught my eye in this photo. 

The Bloomers are not fitted on Able Turret, but are on Baker.

That's probably a sign the sailmakers are repairing them, rather than improving turrent ventilation i nthe steamy tropics.