Conversion complete(this time for sure): USS Arizonas pre WWI

never known it a 1/423 scale when it is actually 1/429 scale & the math proves it. read this link on that scale. http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=286900

are you going to correct her concave stern & how are you going to fix her hull sides once you have removed her torpedo bulges as i have done that?

are you certain it is silver & not light gray?

ddp59

never known it a 1/423 scale when it is actually 1/429 scale & the math proves it. read this link on that scale. http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=286900

are you going to correct her concave stern & how are you going to fix her hull sides once you have removed her torpedo bulges as i have done that?

are you certain it is silver & not light gray?

 

Thanks for correcting my faulty memory on the box scale.
For the non deck hull parts, I'll just be putting the casemated guns back. I don't think the Revell kit has torpedo bulges, if so they aren't obvious like ones on models of Texas I've seen. Really wasn't planning on touching anything below the waterline. Maybe a waterline build is in order! :)

The color sure could be light gay in the pic I posted, though I've seen others where the reflectivity made me think silver. If light gray what would the hull have been? Dark Gray, Sea blue or Navy? Any of those combos would be attractive. Just have little written info to go on for her actual colors during this period.

Revell model has the torpedo bulges but not the proper bulges the real ship has. that ledge on either side of the hull is the tops of the armor belt & torpedo bulges. you do know that you will have to remove the tripods & superstructure deck as not there at that time period as had cagemasts & open the upper hull sides to put in the casemates that was removed later in her life. what plans are you using to do this? i'm using 17 models of Revell's 1/429  scale Arizona as a basis to do all the battleships from the Wyoming class to the Colorado class during ww2.

read this link  if you have not already. http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/39a.htm

Thanks for the tips and links.
Have you completed your Arizona yet? Would love to see some pictures, if you have links please share them.

they are a work in process so will be a few more years before i get them done. did have links but removed them from the site that they were on due to site issues.

look at this link http://navsource.org/archives/01/039/013962.jpg then compare it to the model you posted as you'll see you have a lot of work to do.

From 1919 when the fleet painted out of wartime color to April-ish, 1941 the Arizona was in Standard Navy Gray #5.    If you go to Archives and you put "Panama Canal + USS Arizona" into the search bar you can find some photos of the Arizona transiting the canal in the early part of the 20th century

Dave - That is a great picture, nice and early, pre WW1? Being high res, clear and mostly full profile, it will help me design the older parts.

Ed - I googled "USS Arizona in panama canal" and there are some great pictures.
This one again makes me ask what color are her turrets? I'm sure you are right about all the rest of her, that could easily be Standard Navy Gray #5 though it seems a little dark.

JoeSMG

This one again makes me ask what color are her turrets? I'm sure you are right about all the rest of her, that could easily be Standard Navy Gray #5 though it seems a little dark.

We run into the ever-present problem from period photos--they were taken and printed so as to render the best visual contrast the camera, filme, lighting, and the photographer could manage.  Which was further "cranked upon" when the negative was "exposed" to print the photo.

Now, poking an eyball on the Canal photo, a couple of reference items pop out.  Those would be the bloomers on the guns and the shade tarp over the forecastle.  Those appear to be an unpainted 'raw' canvas, which is going to be a very pale whitish gray.

That gives a place to start comparing the turret color.

This time frame encompasses when "Range Clocks" and "Formation firing" were still common doctrine.  So, there is the possibility that the "off side" of the turret have vertical stadia stripes on them in #5 or even Black

This is USS California for reference

Now, if those turrets are a lighter color is ajudgement call, that's a somewhat over-exposed photo.
And, here's USS Mississippi

It's odd that the documentation for the paint scheme is so scanty, as it appears to be pretty common, here's USS New York i nthe Canal

With the distinctly pale turrets.

Your Mileage May Vary

Joe, around the time of her commission which was Oct 17 1916, before the US entered the war.

More great pictures CapnMac, I had much the same thought that most photos had been adjusted to bring out whatever the photo processor thought important. My shot of the Arizona in the Panama Canal for instance, the jungle is likely too dark. After adjusting the brightness and contrast to give it a more likely shade, Arizona's shade of gray became lighter and much closer to what #5 should look like. But the turrets sure did get awfully light too!

Thanks Dave for the date confirmation.

Another question to the forum: Does anyone know if the insides of the air ventilation stacks were a different color on US ships in the 1910s? Several nations chose to paint them differently from the rest of the superstructure. And as they are a prominent feature of Arizona in this period, I'd really like that color to be accurate.

JoeSMG

Another question to the forum: Does anyone know if the insides of the air ventilation stacks were a different color on US ships in the 1910s? Several nations chose to paint them differently from the rest of the superstructure. And as they are a prominent feature of Arizona in this period, I'd really like that color to be accurate.

I don't qualify as an expert, but based on 60 yrs or so of studying photos, I think any of that went out after the Spanish-American War and the 'Great White Fleet' era.

JoeSMG

Something caught my eye in this photo. 

The Bloomers are not fitted on Able Turret, but are on Baker.

That's probably a sign the sailmakers are repairing them, rather than improving turrent ventilation i nthe steamy tropics.

Okay.

        Now here is the conundrum.Many folks ,some even experts in the printing fiels couldn't tell what colors were used on the Arizona in any of those shots. In some She is obviously very light grey. In Others she appears dark Grey(Or it could be Fleet Blue) and so on. The ventilator cowls were either near maroon or black. I have only seen the Texas one time with the throats painted a light color. That went away fast after a group of veterans had their re-union on her!

       It seems the Arizona continues to hold mysteries for us ship modelers. I guess that's why she stands out among the ships back then ,Besides the aweful thing that happened that day,Even then there were questions about turret colors and Turret top colors.The "Blister" in the stern was done on the "New York'. Now about the Armor Belts, frankly I have never had folks mention those.

       Four client Arizonas later and I can tell you they were all different, but I could not convince any of my clients to do the Cage Mast version! So with a set of bad plans I am going to(I have already started her!) build a 1/200 scale version,  and make all the changes to back date her to that era. For me! 

JoeSMG

I agree Greg, and wouldn't have given it a second thought. But I was looking closely (maybe too closely) at the picture of 1916 Arizona that Dave had linked, and the insides of the funnels are in direct sun but I thought they might be a shade darker, maybe not, but had to ask.

Joe, don't know whether you'd seen this one or not, a Navsource photo 'ca. 1920' showing fly-off trials w/a Nieuport 28 fighter mounted on a platform on one of Arizona's gun turrets [which -- hint, hint -- might be a really cool thing to model ], with part of a ventilator cowl conveniently visible. Again, no expertise claimed, and no suggestions offered, as tonal comparisons in b/w photos are always a minefield, but at least it gives you one more 'look' w/which to draw your conclusions.

https://navsource.org/archives/01/039/013920v.jpg

Cool project you've embarked on!

Greg that is a great idea! - I hadn't heard that Arizona had experimental aircraft handling trials. I'll definitely bake that into the conversion. Assuming my hull modification for the casemates works out, if I can't get a respectable result on that, I'll likely bag the conversion and straight up design and print the whole model (I’d still keep the aircraft & turret platform). But doing this conversion has been in the back of my head for years, far longer than 3d printers have been a thing, so I do want to give it a solid effort. That said, Dave's point on the torpedo bulges really stung. I can't see me pulling off their removal to my satisfaction, so that's already a feather in the "just print it" cap. I'll just do the hull as planed and see how I feel with the results. Thankfully Revell didn't make them as obvious as they likely were.

The inside of that vent does look slightly darker, but I spent hours last night Googling for period paintings of our Dreadnoughts, thinking they may have captured the colors of vents and turrets. Nada! First I’m surprised at how rare battleship paintings of this period are. I think the newfangled flying machines got all the artistic love & attention. The few I did find were rendered too small to make out the vents but none showed the turrets as significantly lighter, which was disappointing.

All that said – If anyone has info or an opinion please give it a shout out.

Joe, how are you with scratch building as removing the current model bulges is really not that hard as i did it on my Tennessee conversion from the Arizona. i cut the bulges out & filled the holes with 1mm(.0 40") sheet plastic then put the new armor belt back on. is that your site that you posted that model Arizona from? because if so then i will send you my pics of what i have done. are you using plans or what to do the kitbash to the earlier Arizona?

armor belt https://catalog.archives.gov/id/75840436

never mind the hull as i have an idea on that but do you think you are capable of replacing everything from the main deck & up minus the main turrets & their barbetts & most of the funnel?

This is the belnder design of the parts I intend to replace.

It's far from done but should give you an idea of what I had planned to do.

are you going to 3d print that casement section or scratch build it out of plastic sheet? i have the topview drawing of that main deck showing those casements & the plans of a 1916 Arizona i copied off ebay if you need.

Aha!

 See Joe! I like printers for the idea of the Cage Masts. But that's one of the few times I would find a use for it. The way I do things a printer would actually not be cost effective.

Hi Tanker,

I get that, I wouldn't recommend them to most folks. The work sunk into learning a design tool, then actually creating desirable objects and successfully printing them, can be frustrating and painful, more so, if you don't have a familiarity with the technology and enjoy doing those types of activities. Then you have the hazardous waste, toxic fumes and solvents to deal with, if you chose to go with a resin printer. For lots of reasons they're not for everyone.

I’m surprised an old sea dog such as you doesn’t have a few thoughts on the paint scheme on the 1916 Arizona. Are you in the all Standard #5 camp too? I’m starting to think that is the case – curse those deceptive black and white photos!

TB at 1/200 I've been thinking about your project, you've got yourself a big canvas to work with. Arizona must be just over 3 foot long at that scale and wooden deck planking becomes a real option that big! 1/200 is all around way friendlier to traditional scratch building. How far along are you?

i'm doing the ww2 /post ww2 time period so will try to use the color schemes of that period. don't think they make 1/429 scale cagemasts in 3d format.

Joe, if the planks on the real ship was 6" wide then divide by 200 scale gets you a plank .03" wide so not really feasible.

Sorry Dave I got confussed and thought you were doing the pre/post WWI dreadnought fleet. And I know you're 100% correct about the planking though I've seen some good looking smaller scale builds that use wooden decking... but yeah at less then a 1mm/plank width, it couldn't be acurate.