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Heller HMS Victory build Photos

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:30 PM

Art - you may be more lucky than you know.  I haven't looked at a brand-new Heller/Airfix Victory in quite a long time, but from what others have said here in the Forum it's pretty clear that the newer moldings aren't as good as the older ones.  Heller apparently has been using a cheaper, more brittle plastic in recent years, and there are lots of complaints about warping and other forms of distortion.  The kit I was sent when it was originally issued (back in 1978 or thereabouts) had no such problems.  I have no idea when the troubles started creeping in, but your 10-year-old kit may well be easier to build than the ones the hobby shops are stocking today.

The "new" Airfix 1/100 Victory is just the Heller kit in a new box.  I haven't seen a sample myself, but from what I can gather Airfix didn't change anything.  Even the original English "translation" of the instructions is still there.  That document, which apparently was written by somebody who neither understood French nor had attempted to build the model, is an utter disgrace.  My suggestion to anybody starting the kit is to throw the English instructions in the trash - along with the vac-formed "sails" and the various "looms" that are intended to make ratlines and hammock nettings.

All this is unfortunate, because the kit is, in most respects, outstanding - arguably the best plastic sailing ship kit ever, and certainly one of the best Victory kits in any medium in terms of historical accuracy.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:06 PM

Hey

Barrhaven, eh? My girlfriend lives there, so I'm no stranger to it, though I still get turned atound on Jockvale from time to time. She teaches at Lisgar, too (though I don't believe that gives her access to the OM :^D). Yeah, I'd be into seeing your progress. I ordered my ship yesterday; should be here in a couple of weeks.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:09 PM

JTilley

Thanks for the comments. I read French, so hopefully I'll be able to get by with the sheet provided.

What did you do for sails and ratlines, in light of your reaction to the stuff provided with the kit?

Arth

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 26, 2006 9:38 PM

We've had a good, ongoing discussion of sailmaking techniques in this Forum, in a thread titled "real cloth sails?"  I've just moved the thread to p. 1; it should appear just below this one on the topic list. 

We've talked about ratlines in a couple of threads, but I'll take the liberty of climbing up on my soapbox again here.  The Great Ratline Problem is a silly myth that's been foisted on the modeling community by plastic kit manufacturers over a period of about fifty years now.  The manufacturers, with their injection-molded "shrouds and ratlines," plastic-coated thread, and Heller-type jigs, seem to have convinced everybody that the ratlines on a plastic sailing ship model have to look phony.  They don't.  And making them look realistic isn't anywhere near as hard as lots of people seem to think.  Some people, it should be acknowledged, don't have the dexterity - or the eyesight - necessary to do it.  Those people really ought to pick another hobby.  But if you can put all those Heller gun barrels and carriages together, and paint them, without going crazy you probably can rig ratlines effectively.

To begin with, the parts and techniques provided in the Heller kit simply won't work.  The injection-molding process is a wonderful thing, but there are certain kinds of parts that it just can't reproduce.  A deadeye has to have three holes in it and a groove around its circumference.  Such an object cannot be made in a rigid, two-piece mold.  The Heller deadeyes don't have grooves around them for the strops.  Just about every serious modeler I've heard of who's tackled this kit has replaced the deadeyes with either wood or metal aftermarket parts.

Heller's idea of molding the deadeyes on the sprues with the upper and lower deadeyes the appropriate distance apart, so the lanyards could be rigged before the deadeyes were removed from the sprues, was ingenious - but that doesn't work either.  By definition, the aftermost shroud on any mast runs at a considerably steeper angle than the foremost one.  That means that, in order for the upper and lower rows of deadeyes to be parallel, the aftermost pair has to be noticeably farther apart than the foremost pair.  Rig a gang of deadeyes all the same distance apart, as Heller suggests, and the sheer pole (which Heller omitted - but would be better made from wire anyway) will slope downward toward the stern and look ridiculous.  There's just no shortcut around rigging the deadeyes and lanyards like they were rigged on the real ship.  To me, that's one of the trickiest operations in building a sailing ship model.  Rigging the ratlines is easy by comparison.

I know of two good-looking ways to rig ratlines on 1/100 scale.  The simpler is the "needle-through-the-shroud" method, which is pretty self-explanatory.  Rig the shrouds first.  Cut a piece of white paper (such as file card stock) so it fits behind the shrouds, between the channel and the masthead.  Draw on the paper a series of horizontal lines, about a scale foot apart, and fit the paper in place behind the shrouds.  Take a piece of the finest black (or dark brown; there's room for argument about that) thread you can find and thread it into the smallest, sharpest needle you can find.  If you're right-handed, start with the righthand shroud.  Shove the needle through the shroud where it crosses the first line on the paper.  Then through the next shroud, then the next, etc.  When you reach the last shroud in the gang, put a tiny drop of white glue on the first and last intersections of the shrouds and the ratline.  Let the glue dry (really dry), and slice off the excess with a razor blade.  (That's the most nerve-wracking part of the exercise.  If you accidentally slice through a shroud, you have to start over.)  That method is reasonably fast, and will produce a neat, clean set of shrouds and ratlines.

The most authentic way to do it, of course, is to tie each ratline to each shroud.  That isn't nearly as difficult, or as time consuming, as lots of people seem to think.  Use the same piece of lined paper as a guide.  This time, if you're right-handed, you'll probably find it most convenient to start with the lefthand shroud.  You'll need a good, sharp pair of tweezers, a good light, and some soothing music on the stereo.  The authentic knot is the clove hitch - arguably the easiest, quickest knot there is to tie.  I find it helps to start with the bottom ratline in the gang, then do the top one, then one halfway up, then two that bisect the distance between the ones I've already done, etc.  Before you know it, you'll have a row of clove-hitched ratlines marching all the way up the mast.

Many modelers, I think, give up on rigging ratlines because they underestimate the phenomenon of the learning curve.  Your brain and your eyes aren't the only parts of your anatomy that get educated; your fingers do too.  Making all those clove hitches on the first ratline of a model like the Victory may take fifteen or twenty minutes.  My guess is that the tenth one will take ten minutes, and by the time you're done with the first mast you'll be rigging one ratline every two or three minutes.  A model like that can be "rattled down" in about a week of evenings.  (My own personal preference is to vary the work as much as possible.  I'll set up the rigging of the main lower mast, then the main lower yard, then the foremast, then the fore lower yard, then the mizzen mast, etc.  That way I rarely, if ever, find myself rigging ratlines for more than one evening in a row.)  That's not a lot of time, in comparison with the total amount you'll be spending on the model.  And believe me, the improvement in the finished model's appearance will be more than worth the effort. 

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Friday, January 27, 2006 7:03 PM
The main problem I encountered with rat lines is not the clover hitch or the need to keep the rat lines level.   It is to give the rat lines between each pair of shroud cables the same appropriate amount of sag.   All too easily the lines between one pair of shroud cables sag much more than the others.     The technique I ended up was rather more involved.

I used 2 pieces of paper to plot out the lines of the both shrouds of each mast, so that the tip of the starboard and port side shroud triangles converge in the middle of the paper.     I also plotted the locations where the shroud and the ratlines intersect.   I glued the paper to a wood board.   I used a roll of thumb tacks to mark the bottom ends of each shroud cable, and a nail througgh a piece of styrene tube to marke the apex of the shrouds, where they wrap around the masthead.    I then stretched the shroud cables starting from the bottom tack, up around the styene tube, and back down to t he next tack, where they are cut.   The next pair of shrounds would use a new length of line..   This process is alternated between starboard and port shrouds so the top of the shround, the part where they wrap around the mast top, is sequenced correctly in the right starboard-port sequence.   I tied off the loop of shround cable around the masthead with thinner line.   When all the shroud cables are thus rigged, I whiteglued the apex of the shrouds so they hold together in the right sequence.   I then painted them black with Tamiya X-18 semi-gloss black to give them the right color an a degree of stiffness.

When this is done, while the should cables are still affixed to the wooden board, I pushed a pin though the shroud cables at each point where the shroud and the ratline intersected.  This fixed the shroud ropes and allowed me to play with the tension and sag of the ratlines without moving the shroud cables.  I used a needle and thin line method to do the clover hitch around the shroudline and the pins.  The ratlines are crazy glued to the outter most shroud cables, and the ends of the shrouds are then turned back and crazy glued to the ratline itself.  This makes a reasonable approximation of the end cinch of the ratline.   When all the ratlines are in place, I pull out the pins, and free the shrouds by cutting the shroud cable at the bottom.    The stacked tops of the shroud line, whiteglued into their currect alternating starboard/port sequence, slides off of the styrene tube.   Whiteglue doesn't seem to stick to styrene.   They are then slid back onto the separate mast tops of Heller's masts from the bottom, and then the mast tops are glued onto the rest of the mast.




  • Member since
    November 2005
The Real Deal: Victory in Portsmouth Jan 2006
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 4, 2006 12:33 PM

I've just returned from the UK where I took copious pictures of HMS Victory as she presently sits in Portsmouth Harbour.  I did the full onboard tour - walking on the lower gun deck that pre-dates Trafalgar.  Saw top fore mainsail which survived Trafalgar full of canon ball and shot holes -- immense!  One thing is for sure though, go easy on the yellow boys 'cause she's all but orange.  Sunlight can make her look more yellow, but even my 17 drops of Humbrol Matt red #60 added to the Humbrol Matt yellow #74 isn't enough.  Also, and I think you guys are already clued in on this one, the lower gun decks are NOT red, contrary to popular belief & per the instructions.  I had been told previously that they were painted red so as to hide the blood and not discourage the fighting sailors -- same reason I guess General Montcalm requested his brown pants when he faced the British on the Plains of Abraham in 1759 Smile [:)] Red gun decks is a compete fallacy, although it may have been common practice in Elizabethan times.  Too late to change mine nowSad [:(] One last point, iron bands on masts are yellow, not black,  This was an explicit instruction of Nelson prior to the battle in order to distinguish British ships in the fray.  Also a pic of HMS Warrior in Portsmouth, Britains 1st ironclad from 1860.  I also purchased the book entitled "HMS Victory, Her Construction, Career, & Restoration".  It is an excellent source for rigging detail.  I have also added a pic of my near completed bowsprit with insane amount of rigging.  Questions are welcome.

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1419/1/20/9/64/55/1/155640920107_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1419/1/20/98/23/5/1/105239820107_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1419/1/20/98/1/57/9/957019820107_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1419/1/20/98/51/60/6/660519820107_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1419/1/20/98/62/44/1/144629820107_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1419/1/20/98/71/64/3/364719820107_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1419/1/20/9/96/63/3/363960920107_0_ALB.jpg

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1419/1/20/98/98/48/5/548989820107_0_ALB.jpg

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 4, 2006 12:45 PM

 jtilley wrote:

The simpler is the "needle-through-the-shroud" method, which is pretty self-explanatory.  Rig the shrouds first. 

...what diameter of thread do you use for the shrouds that can take a needle piercing it without breaking every time?  What is the diameter of the ratlines?  I've tried to standardize on thread size by buying all new, but am still not convinced I have the correct scale.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 4, 2006 3:49 PM
 MalcolmB wrote:

 jtilley wrote:

The simpler is the "needle-through-the-shroud" method, which is pretty self-explanatory.  Rig the shrouds first. 

...what diameter of thread do you use for the shrouds that can take a needle piercing it without breaking every time?  What is the diameter of the ratlines?  I've tried to standardize on thread size by buying all new, but am still not convinced I have the correct scale.

 

I've not started yet, but have been making the lines on the ropewalk, doing so will allow a needle to pass through as the shroud is not made up of a single strand.

Main shrouds at scale will be 0.89 mm thats "plenty" big enough to pass a needle through.

On a side note, I am in posession of an Excel spreadsheet that has the Dia of all the lines and the corresponding scale size for the victory model, also have the same for the blocks/deadeyes and hearts.

I will contact the owner of the spreadsheet for his consent, but if anyone wants a copy, drop me an email or PM and I'll get a copy off to you as soon as I get the ok.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, February 6, 2006 9:00 AM

Maybe the best way to approach this problem is to start by getting an understanding of how the real ship worked, and then consider how best to translate full-scale reality into model-building terms.

A real sailing warship's rigging consisted of miles of rope in dozens of different sizes.  The appendix at the end of James Less's The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1620-1860 contains a convenient set of figures for working out the sizes of all the lines of a ship.  (David Steel's Elements of Rigging and Seamanship, from 1797, has detailed tables for every rate of warship in the British Navy, but for most modeling purposes Mr. Lees's book will do fine.  His table isn't too intimidating; it takes up four and a half pages.)  Mr. Lees acknowledges that, like any such rules, these weren't followed precisely all the time.  But if a model follows them it will look right.

In using any such document it's vital to remember that it discusses rope in terms of circumference.  Modelers are more likely to be interested in the diameter, which of course is the circumference divided by pi (3.1416...).  To all intents and purposes, divide the given, full-size circumference by 3 to get the full-size diameter.  Then divide by the scale of the model (in this case 100) to get the size of the thread.

Mr. Lees keys all rigging sizes to the size of the mainstay, which he says is 1/2 the diameter of the lower mast.  So the mainstay's diameter is 1/6 that of the lower mast.  (That's an enormous piece of rope.)  The topmast stay is half the size of the lower stay, the topgallant stay is half the size of the topmast stay, and the royal stay is half the size of the topgallant stay.  For the shrouds, Mr. Lees gives the following figures:  "Main and fore lower, 0.6 of the appropriate stay.  Mizen, 0.8 of the mizen stay.  Fore and main topmast shrouds, 0.66 of the lower shrouds.  Mizen topmast shrouds were the same as the mizen topmast stay.  All topgallant shrouds were the same size as their appropriate topgallant stays." 

To find out the right diameter for the main lower shrouds on the model, in other words, go through the following steps:  1. Look up the diameter of the main lower mast.  2.  Divide that by 2, to get the circumference of the real ship's mainstay.  3.  Multiply that by 0.6, to get the circumference of the real ship's main shrouds.  4.  Divide that by 3 (or 3.1416..., if you really want to be nasty about it) to get the diameter of the real ship's main shrouds.  5.  Divide that by 100, to get the diameter of thread to use on the model.

One of the most useful tools for rigging a ship model is a calculator that works in feet, inches, and fractions.  Speaking personally, my skills in arithmetic are such that if I had to work out all the sizes of rigging lines with a pencil and paper, I'd never finish a model.  (And if I did finish it, it would look decidedly odd.  My high school geometry teacher would be happy to testify that my skills in computation were just about the worst in the class of 1969.)

How literally all this should be taken in a 1/100-scale model obviously depends on the modeler.  If you make your own rope, and you're obsessed with absolute accuracy, you can come really close.  But if you make the fore and main lower shrouds the same diameter, and the mizzen shrouds a little smaller, not many people will mind much.  What's most important is for the rigging sizes to look like they're proportioned according to the jobs they do.  If the lower shrouds are .75 times the size of the stay, instead of .66, that won't matter much.  But if the shrouds are bigger than the stay, things won't look right.

Mr. Lees says ratlines are an inch and a half in circumference - period.  (That makes sense.  The weight of the sailor climbing on them doesn't change.)  That means they're about half an inch in diameter.  On 1/100 scale that's .005".  In practical, model-building terms, if you make the ratlines as small as you can you won't be making a mistake.  Bear in mind one of the golden rules of ship model rigging:  if in doubt as to diameter, err on the small side.

Hope this helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 8:45 PM

I think you make the point about how far to go, but it should be reiterated.

This is a 1/100th scale ship! about 50 different lines when scaled down, fit inside the .7-1mm Dia range.

Now, I have no intention of making each line to exact scale, I will vary the weight in the "bucket" to create some slightly thinner than others, but I will cover a range of scales with one size.

As JT said, it would nver get finished else.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 10:50 PM
Much more important to the look of the completed model than representing the minute differences in rope thickness is the need to ensure that te lines are not too stiff, is capable of a natural sag, do not shrink or contract excessively when humidity changes.

Most lines are too stiff for behaving in a scale correct response to its own weight at 1/100 scale.  They do not bend freely in a way that gives them the natural look of full scale ropes on a real ship.   The anchor cable is a particular point.   The only way I've found to make the anchor cable hold the naturally looking droop is to saturate it with slightly diluted white glue, and then let it be glued into a sharp turn around the bottom lip of the haws hole.

It is also very difficult to make the small knots and turns in the ropes without instantly betraying that the lines used are far too stiff and rigid for its scale.

Basically, on a real ship, the natural stiffness of the ropes is insignificant next to the weight of the rope.   Ropes automatically assume the ideal shape of suspended cable.    There are no kinks, no clear deviation from the catenary shape.    On a model, the stiffness of the rope is quite significant.   Unless every line is stretched taught, most always assume some bends and kinks that calls out "that just looks wrong".

 
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:25 PM
OK, I give up.  How do you post pics to this forum because even I can't access the pics I submitted the other day of the real Victory in Portsmouth Harbour?  I'm afraid I don't understand this insert [/img] command either.
  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: Walworth, NY
Posted by Powder Monkey on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:38 PM
Malcomb

Try this link for help with posting pictures.

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/forums/33867/ShowPost.aspx

the [/img] tags identify your link as a picture

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by widepaul on Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:41 PM
I'm currently building the Heller Victory - I an thinking about purchasing wood blocks and deadeyes for it - and good sources for that?

thaks a bunch,
Paul

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:01 PM

Widepaul - A good source for wood blocks and deadeyes is Model Expo ( www.modelexpoonline.com ). That company distributes fittings from several manufacturers; you can pick from quite a variety.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the britannia metal rigging fittings from Bluejacket ( www.bluejacketinc.com ).  They tend to be a little more expensive, and have to be painted (or otherwise colored), but in terms of proportion and detail they're superior to any wood ones I've encountered.

I hope I may be forgiven for offering one unsolicited suggestion - based in part on the experiences a couple of other Forum participants have had.  There's room for several different approaches to the rigging of this model, and the approach you pick will determine how many blocks you need.  For even the most basic rigging job you'll need a lot - and they probably will cost at least as much as the kit did.  But don't feel like you're under some obligation to order the whole batch of several hundred at one time.  Look at the pictures in the online catalogs, consult your references, get an idea of some of the sizes you need, and order a few packages as samples.  Both those companies give good service; the delivery time won't slow you down significantly.  When the samples come, be sure they're the right size - or, if not, figure out what sizes you do need.  Then order as many blocks and/or deadeyes as you think you'll need in a month or two.  There's no need to spend several hundred dollars on fittings you aren't sure you'll actually use.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by widepaul on Friday, February 24, 2006 10:10 AM
jtilley,
Thanks for the info.  I have seen the Model Expo stuff  - in fact I have built the Rattlesnake (old solid hull) from Model Shipways which Model Expo now owns.  The catalogue numbers (ms) makes me believe that the blocks and deadeyes are from Model Shipways - so I know what to expect.  Model Expo also sells in bulk - $11.99 for 150 blocks or deadeyes - that's a lot cheaper than Bluejacket - so I'll probably go with Model Expo.  A quick calculation yields a cost of about $90.00 for blocks, deadeyes, hearts, and thimbles.  I can deal with that - bit by bit.

Cheers,
Paul

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:00 PM

Hunted for some info on the Heller Victory and found your idea very interesting.  Has the HMS Victory site or forum started yet??  There is so much reference material to gather the site or form sounds a great idea.

Many years ago I finished Heller's Le Superbe.  It took three winters part time.  Am retiring end of 2006.  The Victory will be my victim of choicewith  the Constitution and Soleil Royale in the wings.  Am actually thinking of doing some wood as embellishment to the plastic.  Your group might be interesting.

So, your thoughts please.  Bill

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:58 PM

Bill,

I created a webiste about HMS Victory scale models in january, 2006 (click the link to my website).

There are some pictures in the gallery, and some explanations about the available models.

Thoguh, I must admit, the group build of HMS Victory did not meet a lot of success, and there are not many informations on the forums.

Michel

 

  • Member since
    January 2014
Posted by gazzler1850 on Friday, February 7, 2014 11:32 AM

I have finished painting/detailing the Stern Facing after several failures.  It required the "finest" brushes I could find.  I am up to the point now (HMS Victory-1/00 scale by Heller of attempting to install the Stern Facing.  I'm not certain where (or if) there are any "Locating" point's as to "where" to attach it to the ship.  It seem's as though one just "center'sI to the stern and apply's cement.  Any suggestion's out there ?

Many Thank's,.....Marshall

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, February 7, 2014 11:49 AM

Marshall, I'll look at mine this weekend and see if there's any clue.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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