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Lindberg's Jolly Roger a.k.a. La Flore

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:05 PM
Well, I count fifteen.  (The second photo is the one in which they're easiest to count.  Don't miss the one under the mizzen channel.)  I don't have the Lindberg kit in front of me, but I'm pretty sure this is the model on which it's based.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:18 AM

I also count 15.  The forward gunport is not easy to see with the broadside view.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Sunday, July 27, 2008 10:33 AM

Oops!  you are right, there is another gun under the mizzen channels.... Here is something else to throw into the stew.....  It is well-known that 18th century French frigates (and the same was true with French ships of the line) rarely, if ever had a gun in the forward pair of gunports, instead, using these as bridle-ports for mooring.  Some of the earlier ships didn't have a port at all, which gives them a peculiar apprearance (though this would generally be added by the British later after capture).  This was done as method of easing the weight on the forefoot, which would reduce hogging (French frigates in particular were often lightl built), and improve sailing qualities. If a chase gun was needed, the next gun in line was simply moved to the forward port for temporary use.  Once in British hands, these gunports would almost invariably be put to full use with their own designated guns (in the case of a captured ship of the line, this would often be a 68 Lbs carronade, though a frigate would have the same type cannon as the rest of the gundeck).  The point I am trying to raise is that this standard practice by the French throws all the talk about numbers of cannon assigned into a fair bit of confusion!  In fact, if you note the labelling on the 'Flore' frigate model we have been talking about, it clearly states that this is a 28 gun frigate, although the model clearly has 15 gunports a side, all of which are equipped with cannon (which would not be the case in actual service).  The 'extra cannon' could well be a simply foible of the original model-builder, and not the designer, or the ship itself.  Further, French ships on extended service overseas would also often remove a pair of guns aft as well to make better accommodations for officers, as well as to relieve the weight aft.  The British reports of 'Vestale' when captured in 1761 indicate it had 26 main guns (12 Lbs, not 8!!), which could indicate that it could be a 28, or possibly even a 30 gun ship in British use.  The point of all this is that it is very hard to decide whether or not the 'Flore Americain,' or the 'Flore' actually represent ships as built, as received, or as used, as the records for these things have long ago been lost.  All that can be definitively stated (and even this is somewhat questionable) is when the models were built, who they were built for, and what they claim to represent (and the same is true of a number of 'Admiralty' ship models too).  Nice models in any case! 

One other point; earlier in this string we discussed differences/modifications in ships after they were captured, and a very good summary of this can be found in Boudriot's 'History of the French Frigate' on page 148.  It shows a comparison set of plans for the frigate 'Concorde,' with the initial being 'as captured' in 1783, and the second after modification for British usage in 1791.  They look like completely different ships in almost every feature!

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