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Dragon 1/350 Buchanan - some comments Locked

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  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, July 7, 2008 7:50 PM

As I have said at the very beginning, in this, and several other threads, I really like the USS Buchanan kit, and everyone else who has bought says the same thing!  What amazes me is the vicious personal attacks from Mr Smith and from Mr White that have come at the mere suggestion that something else might be done with this kit, or its follow-ons in the future!  And in Mr Smith's case, he supposedly has had something to do with the production of this kit (my apologies Mr White!)?  I rather think if his superiors at Dragon had any idea of the kind of tone he has taken in such a public forum might in fact result in his losing his job forthwith (if this has not already happened)!  Worse still, similar commentary has apparently come from people who have no vested interest in the production of the kit itself, but at the end of the day, are simply other modellers (Mr. White)! 

Look folks, NO kit is EVER perfect, and this kit is no exception!  Technology, and the demands of the market will outstrip this kit, even as the Tamiya 'Fletcher' kit was eventually outstripped.  Place no confidence in the superiority of current technology and production methods, as this too shall pass.  While the Buchanan may be considered 'state of the art' now, next week, next month, next year, it will be considered passe or entirely outdated.  Frankly gentlemen, and as I have stated before, you have your opinions, your thoughts and suggestions, I have mine, others have theirs, and really, there is nothing more to be said on this topic. 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 12:50 AM

I feel more than a little guilty for having started this thread, because it has indeed descended to a level of discourse that I find highly distasteful - and that, as I hope everybody concerned will believe, I never intended it to reach.  I hope, though, that we can return to a degree of civility in talking about this superb kit for just a little longer, for two reasons.  One - I need to retreat from a point I made earlier, and two - I think one of the points that have been raised is worth discussing, for reasons that go beyond this particular kit.

Having had my poor old post-middle-aged eyes directed into the proper places, I can confirm that the upper decks of the Dragon Buchanan do have a barely-perceptible cross-hatched pattern engraved in them.  It's so faint that I can only see it when the light is at the right angle, but it's there all right.  I've put a "later edit" notation to that effect in my original post.

I was interested in - and frankly more than a little surprised by - Mr. Smith's assertion that "almost the entire steelnavy era crowd loathes port and starboard split hulls."  I have no reason to think he's mistaken - and I imagine that was indeed a big consideration in Dragon's decision to split the hull top/bottom.  But I'm having trouble understanding why those modelers feel that way. 

Maybe part of the problem is that my principal interest is in sailing ships.  Nearly all plastic sailing ship hulls are split port/starboard.  (The only exceptions that come to mind immediately are the Pyro Gertrude L. Thebaud, the nice little Imai waterline sail training ships, and the three Monogram "beginner kits," the Constitution, Cutty Sark, and United States, that were released in the late seventies when the company was looking desperately for ways to attract new customers.)  Sailing ship modelers take it for granted that sticking the hull halves together and smoothing the joint is a basic part of building a model - just as aircraft modelers take it for granted that they're going to have to deal with seams running down the middles of fuselages.

The old, original 1/700 "Waterline Series" kits from Tamiya, Hasegawa, Fujimi, and Aoshima, also released back in the seventies, generated gasps of awe because (with a few exceptions) their hulls and maindecks were cast integrally, thereby saving the modeler the problem of cleaning up a joint where the hull met the deck.  In view of the mediocre standards of parts fit that we were used to in those days, that made sense.  But if the hull and deck parts are cast separately, as in the Dragon Buchanan, that advantage disappears.  (Let it be noted that, on the basis of dry-fitting, it looks to me like the fit between the decks and the hull of that kit is excellent.) 

After I thought about this a bit I got out my unbuilt Tamiya 1/700 U.S.S. Missouri.  (It, too, is awaiting my attention in my embarrassingly big stash.)  Its hull is molded in port and starboard halves; the modeler assembles them to a "waterline plate" with five thick reinforcing "bulkheads" mounted on it to make the hull stable.  The port and starboard halves, unsupported, amount to strips of styrene with curvature molded into them; if you hold one of those hull halves at one end, the other end will flap almost like a piece of paper.  But the "waterline plate" and the "bulkheads" make the resulting assembly plenty sturdy.  The fit of the halves at the bow and stern (the only places where they touch) seems to be excellent; if any filling and/or sanding is necessary, the combined length of the two seams will be less than an inch.

The hull halves of that 1/700 battleship are considerably longer than the hull of the 1/350 Buchanan.  In height, they're almost identical at the stern; at the extreme bow the Buchanan is about 1/32" taller than the Missouri.  It looks to me like the same kind of tooling that made the Missouri's hull halves would be perfectly capable of doing the same thing for a 1/350 destroyer - with no slide molding or other unusual technology necessary. 

That Missouri is strictly a waterline kit, and adding the underwater hull inevitably would create some additional complexity - and the potential of more seams to fill.  The manufacturers' track record for making tight-fitting hull halves isn't exactly distinguished.  (One of my all-time favorite small-scale warship kits, though it's about thirty years old now, is the Italeri 1/720 H.M.S. Hood.  Its hull is molded in four parts:  port upper, starboard upper, port lower, starboard lower.  The fit between the two lower halves is, to put it mildly, not up to the standard set by the rest of the kit.)  But I'll bet a modern company like Dragon or Tamiya is perfectly capable of making a pair of full hull halves that would fit together as well as the halves of the typical aircraft fuselage - i.e., pretty daggone well.  And I continue to think that Airfix was onto something with its idea of molding a full hull in halves, with a scribed waterline inside.   

Several parts of the Tamiya Missouri (not the hull halves, admittedly) have "flashed-over" holes in them to accommodate such things as anti-aircraft mounts, so the same parts can be used for other members of the Iowa class.  Surely the same approach would work for scuttles in a hull, if it were molded in port and starboard halves.  (The modeler could pick which scuttles to drill out, depending on the date.)  And yes - fore and aft of the armor belt on the Tamiya 1/700 Missouri are a series of extremely fine raised lines representing the edges of the hull plates.

On its website, Tamiya uses the fact that several of its latest ship kits (the Indianapolis, Missouri, Iowa, New Jersey, Mikuma, Mogami, Kumano, Suzuya, Repulse, and maybe one or two others) have hulls that are "divided in two halves in order to reproduce the finest details" as a means of promoting them: http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/31342mikuma/index.htm .   I can't claim to have read every review of those kits that's been published in print or posted on the web, but I have the impression that all of them have been well-received - for good reason.

I can't blame the manufacturers if they're responding to market research in splitting their hulls top/bottom.  But I hope the Tamiya approach catches on, and that the 1/350 kits will catch up.

I haven't seen the new Hasegawa 1/350 battleships unassembled.  How are their hulls broken down?  And do any of you fellow Ship Forum members have strong opinions one way or another about hulls that are molded in port and starboard halves?  More specifically, if Dragon, having established the first-rate reputation that it has, were to release another destroyer, would any of you decline to buy it because the hull was split port/starboard?  I certainly wouldn't.  As a matter of fact, at this point I'm likely to buy just about any new ship those people make.  And I wish they'd think about getting into the sailing ship field.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 9:57 AM
 jtilley wrote:

I feel more than a little guilty for having started this thread, because it has indeed descended to a level of discourse that I find highly distasteful - and that, as I hope everybody concerned will believe, I never intended it to reach.  I hope, though, that we can return to a degree of civility in talking about this superb kit for just a little longer

I agree with you here..shame that many discussions in this forum end up as a spitting match, very reminiscent of academic petty squabbles. I hope you still continue to post your opinions and reviews, there are valuable and informative!

"I haven't seen the new Hasegawa 1/350 battleships unassembled.  How are their hulls broken down?  And do any of you fellow Ship Forum members have strong opinions one way or another about hulls that are molded in port and starboard halves?  More specifically, if Dragon, having established the first-rate reputation that it has, were to release another destroyer, would any of you decline to buy it because the hull was split port/starboard?  I certainly wouldn't.  As a matter of fact, at this point I'm likely to buy just about any new ship those people make.  And I wish they'd think about getting into the sailing ship field"

- I dont have any of Hasegawas new 350 BBs, but a ModelShipWrights review of the 350 Mikasa BB states:

"The hull halves match up nicely and require minimal filler and cleanup. An immediate problem is that there is NO hull detail below the waterline. With the exception of thick bilge keels and four bilge holes, nothing. No ribs, steel plate, or torpedo doors. Considering "

from another review:

"Sprue A provides the full hull halves, split down the centerline. Those of us interested in building a waterline version will have to rely on some surgery. Fortunately, the internal bracing for the two hull halves are above the waterline and should not interfere with the surgery required."

Trumpeter's recent 350 BB offerings are one piece hulls (Richelieu, NC, etc).

I have a minuscule amount of modelling experience compared to you guys (being a hobby returnee). I recently started Dragon's 350 USS Kidd (split hull); fit was not very good. however, I take that as part of the "craft' we all need to learn. With the new (to me) welding glues like Tenax and circular sanding tools like Flexi-files, the prospect of a seamless hull joining is not out of the reach of beginner modelers (akin to a seamless aircraft hull construction). All builds have "painful" portions; ship rigging, complex canopy masking, indy track links.

If I want a waterline ship, i can choose from the myriad of past offerings (old "waterline series), or some of the newer kits with waterline options. This summary may be oversimplistic, but if a beginner/intermediate modeller wants a waterline ship, there are plenty of available choices, old and new. An advanced modeller should be able to make most kits into a waterline version, as long as the cut does not slice thru internal bracings. Over at MSW there is a build log of someone who is building a waterline version of Has' Nagato (one way to deal with the "CAD" lines ;).

Finally, to answer your last query, I would not make a buying decision based on hull splits. Dragon new releases would get my ship money, unless its a different/rare subject (eg SOYA). Trumpeter seems to still make many accuracy errors, but would purchase if I read enough good reviews. Hasegawa? Probably skip for now due to the Nagatos' CAD lines. But all depends on subject matter, quality and COST.

And I share with you the hope that one of the "big boys" releases a good plastic sail ship model for those of us who dont have the skills to build the wooden types!

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:32 AM

Gee, I called for an end to the feud twice before this entry with no notice.  Certainly, personal attacks are despicable.  Such anger has no place in these forums.

Hasegawa's 1/350 scale battleships are molded in port and starboard full hull halves that fit very nicely together.  I have no objection to this kind of structural molding as long as the halves and the decks fit well.

That leads to another issue; I keep reading such statements made earlier in this thread that " over 90 percent of shipmodelers . . ." and "97 percent of ship modelers . . .".  I have also read similar comments in other threads. For example, "Ship modelers make up only 13 percent of all modelers." or "Sailing ship modelers make up only x percent of all ship modelers."  I wonder about the methodology used in reaching those statistics.  As a ship modeler for over 50 years and as an historian, I have never seen a scientifically conducted poll, survey, questionairre, or other research method.  Data obtained only from sales figures are highly questionable given the limited availability of a wide variety of kits, at least until recently.  How do the manufacturers triangulate their data? What methods are used to determine the reliability and validity of their data?

In other words, I am highly sceptical when I read such statements.  Manufacturers have been using such statistics to limit our hobby for decades.  We should all question these statements and keep writing our letters!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:11 AM
Agreed. How does the expression go? '90% of statistics are made up on the spot!'  Once in a while I have run into a split-hull ship model that has caused a few problems, but nothing a bit of clamping couldn't deal with.  Usually this was caused by a bit of distortion in the hull halves 'out of the box,' and I have always thought this was due to insufficient cooling of the plastic before packaging, or perhaps storage in an overheated area, but I may well be wrong.  As far as finishing a split-hull model, the actual areas requiring sanding and filling are generally quite small (really just the bow and stern, as the bottom is not particularly visible), and certainly are not likely to remove or obscure any hull details.  In fact, until this thread began, I never thought about this 'issue' at all.  Does anyone else have a different experience? 
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 7:36 PM

Here is the official announcement of the next Buchanan:

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/dd/dd-484/dd484-45-pre/dragon-poster.html

Seems Dragon has gone the "Limited release by Cyber-hobby" way with this kit... in the armor world, this means the first batch is snatched up immediately and then it starts to re-pop on Ebay at much higher values.

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 8:42 PM
 JMart wrote:

Here is the official announcement of the next Buchanan:

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/dd/dd-484/dd484-45-pre/dragon-poster.html

Seems Dragon has gone the "Limited release by Cyber-hobby" way with this kit... in the armor world, this means the first batch is snatched up immediately and then it starts to re-pop on Ebay at much higher values.

What are the major differences between the '42 and '45?

I like the General and Naval Officers

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 9:02 PM

 

 jtilley wrote:
There are, though, a few features of this kit that I find, if not disappointing, a little...well, puzzling.

First thank you for your comments on the kit. Both good and bad. You might as well hear it straight from the horses mouth. 

 

 jtilley wrote:

.....The recessed portholes under the forecastle deck are particularly well-cast.  Unfortunately, though, photos confirm that, as one would expect, by the period represented by the kit (1942) the Buchanan's hull scuttles had been plated over.  .


That hull will serve as the basis for all of the future Benson/Gleaves class ships. The port holes were plated over before Buchanan went to war. The hull is a complex part and we had to find a happy medium. A bit of a compromise, but it is easy to fill than to drill new ones. Especially since the portholes follow the upward sweep of the main deck instead of being parallel to the waterline.

 

 jtilley wrote:
2.  Except for those scuttles, the hawsehole lips, the aforementioned bilge keels, and the screws and rudders, there's no detail on the exterior of the hull.  The sonar dome, for instance, is conspicuous by its absence..

The Benson Gleaves class is basically a smooth hulled ship. The only visible plate lines are the two horizontal lines that run almost the full length of the ship. I have a lot of high resolution photos and the vertical lines are almost invisible. It really wasn't worth the trouble to do lines. The direction the mold pulls would stip the horizontal lines anyway. To get that effect you would need another slide in the mold. Too much cost not enough benefit. Besides those who want to to model these effects can scribe or mask them. There are some great tips on how to do plating on ModelWarships.com. Devin Poore's USS Laffey build comes to mind. The sonor dome is modeled in it's retracted mode. ;) Sorry I was still trying to find details on the sonar when we ran out of time. After 2 years work, we had to get something on the market, as many modelers were screaming about the delays.  Also one piece upper hull vs two piece. No contest, single is better to build as it is easier to fit a deck with one hull part than two hull halves and internal braces. The two hull halves is a compromise to allow more detail to be molded without slides. This was the best way to mold the hull, and the fit on the latest test shots for kit #2 proves this.

 

 jtilley wrote:
3.  Dragon says the decks feature the "finest tread pattern ever reproduced."  I guess that's true, but having looked at the surfaces in question under magnification I've concluded that there's no genuine "tread pattern" there; just an extremely fine stippled texture.


I like the effect, but we will do better on our next kit. I had mixed feelings about this. Some like it some don't, but it is so fine that you can wipe it out by just using a heavy application of paint.

 jtilley wrote:
4.  I really don't care for the way the foremast is molded - in two pieces, 

I don't like the two part mast ether. But long tiny parts like that are hard to mold. To help give the mast strength a photo etch ladder was included to overlap the joint. Advanced modelers will replace this with brass anyway so I didn't lose any sleep over it.

 jtilley wrote:
5.  The kit includes two frets of beautiful photo-etched brass parts, ....What I have trouble understanding is why some other parts aren't on the brass frets.

We didn't do everything to keep cost down, and to help the aftermarket companies stay in business.  Cool [8D] I am looking forward to seeing what Gold Medal Models, White Ensign, and others come out with. The majority of modelers don't use the PE so that is just extra goodies in the kit. Not a big deal to me since I will probably use the aftermarket upgrade set anyway.

 

 

 jtilley wrote:
6.  The most amusing mistake in the kit - and I do think this one qualifies as a mistake - concerns the instruction sheet.

Small editing error. I didn't notice that. But will look for it in the future. I don't mind the nit pick, as I want the next kit to be even better. We raised the bar with this one, and intend to keep on raising it. We have an ongoing list of complaints and praise for the kit on ModelWarships.com. I'm sure the next one will have some editing errors and molding issues, but it will be better.

 Timothy Dike AKA Cadman 

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:10 PM

Hi Timothy,

For a next 1/350 kit how about a 2 in 1 kit:Nevada/Oklahoma or Tennessee/California or Colorado/Maryland all in hmmm say December 1941 configuration.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 2:00 AM

 searat12 wrote:
there is nothing more to be said on this topic. 

Sez you; as you can see.. this thread still has a lot of life to it. And if you thought those were "vicious, personal attacks," you have some pretty thin skin. Calling a person out when they indicate a lack of knowledge is not a personal attack. A personal attack would be more like "you're an idiot and you smell funny." I don't think you're an idiot and I have no idea how you smell, so THAT wasn't a personal attack either, merely an example, and not particularly vicious at that.

 searat12 wrote:
and certainly are not likely to remove or obscure any hull details.  In fact, until this thread began, I never thought about this 'issue' at all.  Does anyone else have a different experience?
 

Look at the airfix kits with the split hulls and tell me how the bilge keels look in comparison to the dragon kit. I thought as a kid they were SUPPOSED to be fat triangles! Take a look at Oklahoma's! Fixing them on a plastic hull can be very annoying because you have to cut them off, fill in the huge gaps you created, and then create a new, thin keel.

I had plenty of hulls where one side of the long, flat bottom warped and it was a P.I.T.A. to get it flat and glued together in a way that didn't split the seam when I tried to sand it.

Now, that's not to say the one-piece bottom is always the best; Trumpeter is famous for less than stellar lower hulls. The red plastic they used on the North Carolina and Lexington kits "clenched" in the midships after molding so that it was narrower than the upper hull... and it's a strong plastic with a rigidity to overcome most attemps at forcing it... wood dowels seem to be the way to go to spread them our, or to build waterline (as I've chosen to do on Lexington and Washington (conversion) at least).  

As we all agree, Dragon managed to release a bang-up kit.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 7:55 AM
 ps1scw wrote:

Hi Timothy,

For a next 1/350 kit how about a.........

I'm sorry but I can not comment on what the next kits are going to be. But I can tell you that there will be other exciting kits and not just variations of Benson/Gleaves class. Lot's of rumors floating around, some close, some not. But ship modelers will be very happy. They will just have to be patient as both Dragon and I want it right. I'd rather hear about editing errors in the instructions than that ship didn't have that shape, etc.

Timothy Dike AKA Cadman

 

 

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 8:06 AM

Well, here we go again!  I was referring to your previous commentary, not the subject.  Comparing a kit designed in 2007/8 for master modellers and an Airfix kit designed and produced in 1970 for a 12 year-old kid is hardly any comparison at all, so I think we can put that comment well to one side.  It merely shows how desperate you are to 'prove' a point that is pretty much irrelevant to the issue at hand.  Now almost 40 years later, I would expect a few improvements!  Have a look at what Aoshima has done in their 1/350 split hull 'Takao' cruisers.  The bilge keels are separate moldings that go on with virtually no gap at all that requires any sanding or filling, and they are just as, if not thinner than those on the Buchanan.  I'm not saying that the 'Takao's' are problem-free models either (as I have stated many times, no model is!), but in this case Aoshima has produced an effect that is just as good as the Buchanan, by using a method that allows for other good things to happen elsewhere by allowing the hull mold to be cast in left and right halves (Aoshima also makes great use of 'flashed over' holes, which can be drilled out to attach different parts, or simply painted over, which I think Prof Tilley was referring to reference the portlights on the Buchanan). 

On another note, I can't recall ever having a hull seam split while I was sanding it, or losing any details either.  What the heck do you use for sanding?  A belt sander, or do you just sand-blast?? No wonder you seem so fond of waterline models (which by their nature, should not be 'dockyard perfect' either)!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 8:08 AM
 ModelWarships wrote:
 ps1scw wrote:

Hi Timothy,

For a next 1/350 kit how about a.........

I'm sorry but I can not comment on what the next kits are going to be. But I can tell you that there will be other exciting kits and not just variations of Benson/Gleaves class. Lot's of rumors floating around, some close, some not. But ship modelers will be very happy. They will just have to be patient as both Dragon and I want it right. I'd rather hear about editing errors in the instructions than that ship didn't have that shape, etc.

Timothy Dike AKA Cadman

 

 

It's all good stuff, and we all look forward to your subsequent productions!!
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 9:22 AM
 ps1scw wrote:
 JMart wrote:

Here is the official announcement of the next Buchanan:

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/dd/dd-484/dd484-45-pre/dragon-poster.html

Seems Dragon has gone the "Limited release by Cyber-hobby" way with this kit... in the armor world, this means the first batch is snatched up immediately and then it starts to re-pop on Ebay at much higher values.

What are the major differences between the '42 and '45?

The only information I have is from the news release posted above; few superstructure changes/additions, PE parts, plus the figure.

 

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:35 AM

What are the major differences between the '42 and '45?

 

In 1944 after 2 years of rough service in the Solomon Isles, Buchanan returned stateside for a much needed overhaul and refit. She had her 1.1" gun and aft 20 mm gun mount removed and replaced with two twin 40 mm mounts in new gun tubs. Up front she had a new gun tub added above and inbetween the two 20 mm guns. Those where given new tubs and moved outboard a bit to give them a better field of fire. Two extra 20 mm guns were added on the bridge wings. The 24" searchlights had to be relocated to the roof of the bridge to make room for them. The starboard boat and davits were removed to save some of the weight gained.The bridge wings had to be modified to give some extra room there. SA radar was replaced by a new SC set, and SG surface search radar was added to the mast. The old K-gun stowage system was replaced by a new roller rack and the number was reduced from six to four.That's about it in a nut shell.

 

Timothy Dike AKA Cadman

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 4:35 PM

Many thanks to Mr. Dike for his authoritative - and refreshingly courteous - responses to all my original comments.

One point seems to be common to virtually all the posts in this thread:  everybody agrees that the Dragon Buchanan is a first-rate kit - a true benchmark in the field of warship model design - plastic or otherwise.  I'm sure every serious warship modeler will be waiting enthusiastically for whatever 1/350 subjects the company chooses next.  (Not too soon please, though; I don't want anything to divert me from my Buchanan project till I've finished it.)

I do hope Dragon will revisit the question of how best to mold hulls.  I think the designers may be selling themselves short with their assumption that a hull split port/starboard just can't be done to a high standard.  I think they could do a beautiful job of it - and "flash over" the scuttles, and include a subtle indication of those horizontal plating joints.  (I'm inclined to agree that the vertical ones, on 1/350 scale, are better omitted.  But the "inner" and "outer" strakes are rather conspicuous.) 

All this is, indeed, nit picking.  The bottom line:  Dragon has indeed raised the bar.  This is a great kit.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 6:29 PM

jtilley,

Your comment that kit designers assume that port/starboard hull splits cannot be molded to a high standard is very poignant.  In fact, there are many kits that have been well molded with just such a split.  Love it or hate it, the port/starboard halves of Heller's Soleil Royale fit well, as did its decks.  The HMS Victory by Heller fit well as well.  Hasegawa's CAD-besotted Nagato and Mutsu have exquisitely fitting hull halves and decks, as do the 1/700 scale Ise and Hyuga by Hasegawa.  It can be done; indeed, it has been done.

This gets back to my hypothesis that the kit manufacturers are not conducting effective scientific research about the desires, the needs, and the experiences of their consumer base.  I have never witnessed the manufacturers conducting polls, surveys, questionairres, focus groups, or any other method of qualitative or quantitative research.  Yet, I see so many quoted statistics about what we want. You know as well as I that any doctoral candidate who simply makes assumptions without first collecting different kinds of data, then triangulating and analyzing the data will fail.  I believe that the manufacturers simply make assumptions, then create their statistics to reflect those assumptions.

Oh, well.  I suppose that I am on another soap box.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:08 AM
 warshipguy wrote:
kit designers assume

 

 

What make you thing there were any assumtions made here? From an engineering standpoint the one piece hull while more complicated to mold ensures a better fit of the deck and hull.For a kit of this size a nice mold with slides was the way to go. For a big sailing boat with extensive hull planking to mold, a two peice is the way to go. It's actually a no brainer for anyone who has done tool design work. 

 Just for the record, while I am the person who designed the kit, I don't work directly for Dragon. I have actually done contract work for a few ship related companies. Mostly CAD work. When I am not playing with ships, I work full time for a Kansas City Manufacturer as their Engineering Manager. I work with injection molded parts everyday, and do know a few things about part design.

 

 warshipguy wrote:
I have never witnessed the manufacturers conducting polls, surveys, questionairres, focus groups, or any other method of qualitative or quantitative research.

It has been going on under your nose for years. Most manufacturers do not like to show their hand until a kit is ready to bring on the market. There is always the chance that another manufacturer will beat them to the punch. So don't assume, the questions are not being asked, and feedback is not being passed on.

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:57 AM
 JMart wrote:

This threads reminds me of some of the academia fights I used to enjoy (NOT) at the conferences I used to attend, sort of whose PhD is longer.

For my 2cents (and 30USD), I rather but this kit (and five more) at 30$ plus 30-40$ in PE than buy another 300$ (kit + pe) nagato with <whatevers> lines all over the hull. Bears repeating, Dragon is/will be getting a lot more of my modelling money than any other vendor.

Well put...IMO, the "oilcanning" effect should be added by the modeler using painting techniques, etc., just as a/c modelers sometimes replicate overly stressed skin on airframes...
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:26 AM

If what you say is true, then I stand corrected. But, I have been modeling for over 50 years and have been a member of modeling clubs across the country for over 30 years.  I have yet to see any poll, survey, questionairre, or focus group conducted by manufacturers.  If they are indeed doing so, it is a surprise to me.  I have seen statistics thrown around freely by those purporting to be representing the manufacturers, but none have cited their sources for those statistics.  In fact, I would very much appreciate hearing from any ship modelers who have been part of such market research.  Thanks!

Concerning the engineering facets of molding a one-piece or two-piece hull, I never claimed that one was better than the other.  I am not an engineer; I never claimed to be an engineer, and I have never commented upon the engineering principles of designing and molding a kit.  If you read my comments at all, you would have read that all I said was that I never have experienced any problems with two-piece hulls; that the current system of including many support bulkheads doesn't really add stability to the hull.  I did say that Heller, when molding two-piece hulls, included very simple support pieces that seem to work well.  Manufacturers have been successfully designing two-piece hulls for many years.  That, too, is a no-brainer.

As for the merits of this particular kit, I have repeatedly said that it is an outstanding kit.  I have no problems with it.  Why become so defensive?

People, I plead with you . . . let's not get our bowels in an uproar.  Let's keep these commentaries amicable and friendly.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:12 PM

Warshipguy wrote:  "People, I plead with you . . . let's not get our bowels in an uproar.  Let's keep these commentaries amicable and friendly."

Amen.  About the next time somebody takes a nasty little dig at somebody else in this thread I'm going to do three things:  drop out of the thread (which, at this point, I fervently wish I hadn't started), lodge a complaint with the FSM Forum management (maybe somebody's already done that), and throw my Dragon Buchanan in the nearest trash can.  As JMart noted, I can get plenty of this sort of thing at the office; I don't need it in my hobby.

Everybody taking part in this thread seems to agree that the kit in question is one of the finest ever produced.  Yet the tone of the discussion, for some reason, has descended to a level I've only rarely encountered in the five years I've been taking part in this Forum.  I don't get it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:29 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

  In fact, I would very much appreciate hearing from any ship modelers who have been part of such market research.  Thanks!

I was and I have been privy to pre-public announcements from several manufacturers.  I have been asked to keep the questions & decisions confidential.  I have, and will continue to, do so

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:16 PM

JTilley and EdGrune,

Thank you both for your comments! I love this hobby and I value these forums as not only a source of valuable information but as a way of meeting people who share my interests.  JTilley, please keep posting!  EdGrune, I would never ask you to violate your sworn confidentiality. Everyone else, it is okay to respectfully disagree with another's comments.  If you disagree with any of mine, I welcome and value your viewpoint.  Let's just do it with dignity and good intentions.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:23 PM

Interesting... I too have been building models for over 40 years, and have never encountered any sort of questionnaire, poll, or other inquiries from manufacturers, either before, or aftermarket.  I always thought it might be a good idea for a manufacturer to slip a pre-postage paid questionnaire in each kit, as this would avoid any threat of 'industrial espionage,' and give the manufacturers some good feedback as well (but I have never seen it done).  

One of the reasons I have been so pleased with this forum is the fact that apparently, some manufacturers actually do appear to read some of the entries, take notes and act upon them.  That's a good thing, and to me, long overdue.  I too have seen a lot of statistics bandied about, how '90% of modellers only want this, or that,' but as I am a modeller too, am I to believe that I am way out in some threatening 'radical zone' for merely throwing in an 'I wish' from time to time?  A funny thing about the whole 'oilcanning' debate, if you look at the cover art on the Buchanan box, it clearly shows the ship suffering from a fair bit of oilcanning in the bow, so I guess I must be in the same 'radical zone' as the box-art artists (who according to 'statistics,' must either never build models themselves, are never asked their thoughts and wants on the subject, and/or are probably anti-engineering communists too!) ;o)

It is one thing to defend one's work, and certainly the Buchanan is a wonderful piece of work.  But at the end of the day, it is not an engineers or manufacturers job to dispute with customers about what the customer wants, needs, or wishes for, no matter how ridiculous or unfeasible they may be.  In fact, in business as in everything else, this is only counter-productive.  Instead, it is their job to try to figure out how such things can be done in a way that is both economical and satisfactory, and thus steal a march on their competition.  It is the same thing in every business, has always been so, and always will be (my apologies, Professor Tilley!).  If they just can't do it, that's fine, because someone else eventually will, and thus take the business away from those who can't.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Progress and Capitalism!

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:59 PM

There is a manufactures forum on ModelWarships.com where you can talk directly to many of the manufactures about their products. Most manufactures do pay attention to more than sales figures. At least those who are successful do. Some simply work thru those who are in contact with modelers.

BTW I have not taken offense to anything that is written. I am simply answering specific points. I do think such statements as "manufactures assume that...." is an assumption in itself. Split hull vs single is a debate that is relative to the subject at hand. Both options were considered, and the best one was chosen in this case.

The Dragon Buchanan was two years in the making and I talked to many modelers about many things. Being a long time ship modeler and the owner of a dedicated ship site keeps me in contact with ship modelers and what they are looking for. If you have visited you know we talk about these things all the time. Things get a little heated there too. But like this site a lot of that is because you can't see and hear who you are talking to. It is easy to take the tone of a post in the wrong way.

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:14 PM

 searat12 wrote:
A funny thing about the whole 'oilcanning' debate, if you look at the cover art on the Buchanan box, it clearly shows the ship suffering from a fair bit of oilcanning in the bow,

Oilcanning was discussed and ultimately rejected. While I personally thought it would be cool, many modelers would be upset that their brand new ship was all dented up. Kind of like buying a model car with predented fenders. Those few modelers who like the junk yard scenes would be thrilled, but the majority would be complaining about how much putty they had to use to fix it. 

 

 searat12 wrote:
But at the end of the day, it is not an engineers or manufacturers job to dispute with customers about what the customer wants, needs, or wishes for, no matter how ridiculous or unfeasible they may be.

Hey it's not my job, I just enjoy doing it. Especially when your wants wishes and needs are so rediculous. Oh and unfeasible. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

 

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:36 PM
 EdGrune wrote:
 warshipguy wrote:

  In fact, I would very much appreciate hearing from any ship modelers who have been part of such market research.  Thanks!

I was and I have been privy to pre-public announcements from several manufacturers.  I have been asked to keep the questions & decisions confidential.  I have, and will continue to, do so

 

hmmmmm...sounds like a secret society kind of thing...Freemasons have nothing on you...As far as the "oil-canning" debate, it is similar to what the Armor guys have debated for years concening zimmerit on German AFV's or the Aircraft guys concerning fabric-covered control-surfaces or over-stressed aluminum skin...I personally think that some things are better left to the modeler to do themselves, and this is one of them...
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:19 PM

ModelWarships wrote, "BTW I have not taken offense to anything that is written. I am simply answering specific points. I do think such statements as "manufactures assume that...." is an assumption in itself."

Please allow me to clarify my point.  Earlier in this thread, searat12 wrote that he would like to have seen oil canning on the hull. Another writer, who identified himself as having had a role in the design process of this kit, responded that 97 percent of the ship modeling community would have rejected that kit.  He also alluded to such comments as "most modelers".  No serious researcher would make such assertions.  First, no research project involving as many people world wide as ship modeling does can ever sample 100 percent of the community in question. Second, supposing that 97 percent of the sample pool did respond unfavorably to that particular question (assuming it was asked), generalizing that finding to the entire modeling community is still poor research technique.  Third, the stating of any particular percentage with no mention of the margin of error is misleading.  Fourth, the commentator made no mention of the specific sample size (10 people, 20, 30, 100, 1000, etc.).  In short, while stating that he was a member of the design team (I am forced to take his word at face value), he made a very misleading statement that cannot possibly have been arrived at by any serious researcher.

It would have been more appropriate (and ,perhaps, accurate) for him to have said, "97 percent of of the "x" respondents in a manufacturers survey conducted (state the method by which the sample pool was selected) indicated that they would not like to see oil canning of the hull of the model kit of the USS BUCHANAN."

Another member of this thread wrote a private email to me in which he said that, as a member of the design team of the BUCHANAN, the manufacturers conduct research simply by looking at individual postings of pictures of completed models on various web sites, then determine the wishes of the modeling community at large.  Again, that is a very poor research technique. The only information that can possibly be gleaned from such a technique would be the building preferences of those modelers who (1) have the technical skill to download photographs onto those sites, (2) have the hardware with which to do so, (3) have the confidence to post their work, or (4) do not trust their skills at producing such effects as oil canning, seascapes, or other diorama techniques.  This is therefore a very poor research technique that was expostulated to me from a self-admitted member of the design team.

As a result of this comment and many other such comments made by people who purport to represent the various manufacturers that reflect poor research techniques, I am forced to conclude that no such scientific research is in fact taking place.  I am somewhat heartened to hear from one person who has actually been contacted by the manufacturers.  I have never met anyone who has had this honor.

I hope I have clarified and justified my remarks.  I was not making a simple assumption; I was working from statements made by people who worked with (if not for) the manufacturers about their relevant research methodologies. By the way, I visited the Model Warships manufacturers site; there was no relevant thread for sailing ship modelers.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by ModelWarships on Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:50 PM

 warshipguy wrote:
I am forced to conclude that no such scientific research is in fact taking place.

Forced???? You just made a conclusion based on 2 out of 3 subjects. I am comfortable that I am working with a good team representing a broad spectrum of the hobby. No kit is going to make everyone happy, but I am willing to bet that there will be a whole lot of happy ship modelers out there in the coming months. So get out your dremel and see what you can do to create your own oil canning. When your done, post some pics and share some tips. But most of all, relax and have some fun.

 

 

Timothy Dike

Owner and founder

ModelWarships.com

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:07 PM
 ModelWarships wrote:

 searat12 wrote:
A funny thing about the whole 'oilcanning' debate, if you look at the cover art on the Buchanan box, it clearly shows the ship suffering from a fair bit of oilcanning in the bow,

Oilcanning was discussed and ultimately rejected. While I personally thought it would be cool, many modelers would be upset that their brand new ship was all dented up. Kind of like buying a model car with predented fenders. Those few modelers who like the junk yard scenes would be thrilled, but the majority would be complaining about how much putty they had to use to fix it. 

 

 searat12 wrote:
But at the end of the day, it is not an engineers or manufacturers job to dispute with customers about what the customer wants, needs, or wishes for, no matter how ridiculous or unfeasible they may be.

Hey it's not my job, I just enjoy doing it. Especially when your wants wishes and needs are so rediculous. Oh and unfeasible. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

 

Again, and as I have mentioned before, as an engineer (or whatever it is you purport to be), you are doing an excellent job of making your marketing team sick.  I suggest you stop posting now, as you are not helping Dragon and its future business at the moment.  In fact, it surprises me the marketing boys let you out of the shop to speak with the public on any subject.  I wonder if they know you are doing it now, and I also wonder if you enjoy your job at Dragon, because it seems to me the Head of Marketing might want to have a few 'words' for you soon!!
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