Revell's large scale Spanish Galleon and English Man o' War

jtilley wrote:

I've often thought that a generic model would make a refreshing break from the habit of slavishly following detailed plans and documents.  One of these days I want to build a generic fishing schooner or tugboat, put all sorts of interesting, fun, generic details on it, put my wife's name on the stern, and see how many observers figure out what I've done.

I've built a couple of "generic" ship models myself, both radio-controlled working models in the region of 1/48 scale. One is a mid 20th century tugboat (completed a few months ago - you can see it here, the other is a small 1890s steam yacht, and is about 50% complete so far. You're definitely right that it makes a refreshing change from endlessly checking plans + references, and allows you to use a fair bit of imagination + creativity in painting and finishing!

I don't have any problem, personally, with building a generic/"freelance" model of a 19th or early 20th century merchant ship (sail or steam) or any sailing vessel up to the early 19th century - virtually every vessel was different (if not when built, then later on in its life) and documentation and plans - at least that readily + affordably available to the public - is relatively poor. My two freelance working models are basically "composites" of other ships which I have photos + reference material for, adapted to fit the hull + fittings that I have available. The tug is mostly based on the "Furie" produced as a kit by Deans Marine (and which I have a set of plans for) and the "Portwey" preserved at West India Docks in London, whilst the steam yacht is a composite of the 1890 "Maid of Honour" and 1904 "Medea".

Back to the subject of the thread, I would buy at least one of the Galleon/Man o'War kits without hesitation if I saw it for $1, if only as a source of spare parts like crew, cannons, spars and fittings! It does seem to me, from looking at photos of built examples, that it could be kitbashed into a reasonably convincing if not totally accurate model of an English 16th century galleon. I'd probably not instantly recognise a model built from one of these kits, modified or otherwise, as I've never actually seen a built one "in person"  - but it's presumably a lot more common and well-known on the other side of the pond. However, as I have the Airfix Golden Hind + Revenge kits, and the Imai Spanish Galleon, all still unbuilt, I'm in no hurry to acquire another 16th century ship for the time being!

This thread has been very interesting to read, however, and I'll keep it in mind if I eventually do acquire one of these kits - it's just the sort of thing that might turn up at a car boot sale (garage sale to US readers) for a few pounds after the previous buyer gave up on building it.

Luckily, although shipbuilding was more art than science in the 16th through 18th centuries, I am finding that the Spaniards did provide a tremendous written record.  For example, the Spanish government issued a series of detailed instructions specifying exactly what they meant by the term "Galleon".  According to Kirsch, and to Konstam, we know the proportions, their armaments, their provisions and how they were fitted out.  We also know how they were built.  There is also a wealth of pictorial evidence of what these ships looked like and there is a large amount of archeological evidence to support the documentary evidence.  But, there are no available plans of specific ships, only artwork.

The more I read, the more I am finding that the Revell kits are not so comical.  The common hull used in both kits closely match the 4:1 length to beam ratio stipulated by the Spanish government. There is pictorial evidence showing similar hulls, as well as models built throughout the period in question.  The sails seem wrong; Professor Tilley said earlier in this thread that the typical ratio for spars was that each spar was roughly 1/2 the length of the one below it; that seems an appropriate observation based on the period models of Galleons in Spanish museums and the pictorial evidence found in period artwork.  Additionally, the armament seems correct in these models for the period in question, as do the fittings.

In short, both kits can be said to be the basis for a suitable generic model of a Spanish Galleon of 1588.  However, the model named "English Man o' War" does not match English ships of the period, either in proportion or in detail.  One point of interest in the "English" kit is the bonaventure mizzen mast.  Another point of interest are the double stern galleries found on both kits; there are many paintings showing this basic hull configuration with two, one, and no stern galleries.  This could be an interesting way to build both kits into respectable models; build one with either one or two galleries and the other with none.

In other words, I think that it can be done! It may take a lot of work, but I believe that these kits can be made into respectable ship models of generic Spanish Galleons.  I thank everyone who steered me towards the several references that I am now using.  This was quite a find; both kits for $1.00.  Incredible!

Bill Morrison

The Kirsch book has been fantastic!  I recommend it highly for anyone building or researching Galleons.  I also recommend the New Vanguard series booklet Spanish Galleon, 1540 - 1690. It is a nice little reference as well.

Bill Morrison

Hi Bill (and everybody)

I know this thread is pretty old, but I've been looking at these models recently myself and came across this discussion.

I think I found a possible source for the English Man O War ship.  I saw an image in "New Vanguard 149, Tudor Warships Part 2, Elizabeth's Navy - Osprey 2008" page 7 has a picture at the top right with a caption: "A stern view of the same English galleon depicted opposite, from Wihelm' Dilichi's Kregsbush (Frankfurt 1610)."

I googled for "Wihelm' Dilichi's Kregsbush" and came up with this http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400208774000 , an auction for a 1689 Dilich KriegsBuch.  Check out the 11th picture down.

(I pasted in a url to the image below, hopefully it doesn't disappear over time).

Here's a version of the Man O War that somebody's built.

The two ships are almost identical.  The only difference I've seen so far is the bow.  I'm in the process of trying to find a copy of "Kriegsbuch Wilhelmi Dilichii"  (I guess that translates as "Wilhelm Dilichi's War Book"  to get a positive make and model of the ship in the engraving.

I'd kinda thought the model was too fanciful to be a realistic old galleon, but now I'm thinking otherwise.  If anybody else has any other info, I'd love to hear more myself.

Troy

Looking at the pictures again (the next day), I need to reconsider my opinion of last night.  The rigging of the two ships are very similar, and they both have 2 stern galleries, but the engraving has a much lower profile than the model. 

That enormously high stern of the model makes me think it was more likely a Spanish ship, or, if it was based on an English ship, a ship from a time before the later "race-built" galleons.  It could be the ship was modelled on a spanish ship for the spanish galleon and then later fitted with rigging based on an english ship for Revell's Man O War packaging. 

I'm still looking this morning for some historic example of a Spanish ship which may have had that style of body.

Troy,

Welcome!  I read your posts with interest, although I sold both kits on ebay.  They were far too weird to be taken seriously as representing real ships.  But, given the naval architecture of the times, perhaps they do represent something.  I much prefer the Lee/Aoshima galleon!

Bill Morrison

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the followup. I was wondering how you made out with them.  After having read all this, I'm inclined to agree with you.  Unless I see some wood-cut or engraving of a ship with those precise lines I think I'll pass on any eBay auctions for either of them.

Troy

ps - I hear ya about the Lee Galleon... I got one sitting out in the garage waiting to be built :)

Thanks for posting this picture, I just picked up two of this on E-Bay.  It's looks like I need to cut away a cople of layers of the stern to lower it down a bit.  I am cutting open the lower gun ports now.