Why is space so unpopular!!!

I grew up during Apollo and believe the dream. Many of the scientists and engineers involved in Appolo came straight of the lab floor at AVRO after the plug was pulled on the Arrow project.

Why am I concerned with how the US spends it's tax dollars? Because when you live next to an elephant, you feel every move it makes.

Geosynchronously speaking, I could care less what you think. 

gulfstreamV wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote:  Bgrigg wrote: Oh I realize that once on the moon we can do all sorts of things. But we haven't been to the moon in over 30 years. First we have to either rent the Russian's equipment, or re-engineer the Saturn V to launch umpteen loads to the moon, land, build a facility that can support life, manufacture a ship and fuel it. Once all that's done, easy-peasy! I wonder how many kilos all that lot is? More than 10 I bet! I think this will be Buck's point. It would be cheaper and quicker to build a single use ship, blast to Mars, land, plant the flag (thereby owning Mars for all time, according to the Russian's Arctic claim!) and return. It will take a LOT of energy to just build that base on the moon. Of course, doing that single use ship would be a mistake in the long run. This is the reason I've never been happy with the shuttle. All that money we "wasted" building what is in essence a very high altitude glider, to build a space station that will immediately start decaying in orbit, both actual decay of the equipment, as well as the constant boost to stay in orbit. We could already have established a base on the moon, and be building the interplanetary space craft.  NASA knows all of these things...so why did we all think they keep us in near-earth orbit, just to somehow placate those of us who want to be "Space Frontier Trekees"? To create the illusion we are somehow exploring the vastness of space? Where the shuttle goes is hardly worthy of being called "space"...even a moon shot is barely scratching the outside of space...I feel it is simple propaganda... Your not NASA or anything close to being Knowledgeble in what NASA has as a data base of what it takes to manufacture,prepare,man,stage and launch anything close to what you dream of space travel is. Why you keep saying NASA is a joke makes me wonder.You must know somthing they haven't learned in 30 years? Like I said, send in your resume' cheif, you may have the right stuff?

...you are kidding me right? you think all of these posters on here are writing things that the Space Agency of the US is ignorant of? C'mon...just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't mean you have to be so disingenious...I am not qulaified for the job at NASA and that is my point: The people running our space program know what and what isn't getting done in terms of what COULD or SHOULD be getting done...and according to many on here we should already be on Mars...

...my point is, why aren't we? Is NASA (you seem to think they aren't running our space program for some reason) just "going thru the motions" of space exploration? And please stop telling me to apply for the job, it has lost it's charm of being cute...

bondoman wrote:

I think that the reason space (modeling) has become so unpopular is because we spend too much time on the internet and not enough time building rockets out of cigar tubes packed with match heads.

LOL...I remember in middle school I built a V-2 model rocket (the kind you launched) and it was an awesome experience to get it in the air...the packing I used was toilet paper though and the chute burned up when it deployed so it came down faster than planned (but didn't reach supersonic speed as they did over Britain)...

Cool, was it a device of your own design or a kit? I was given a V-2 ish looking pickle with a pair of tail fins that had a slight twist. it was a clear colored plastic about  8" or so long, with a nozzle that plugged onto a hand held water pump. You charged the thing up like the squirt guns kids have now, and released it and it shot up a ways twirling.

I never had the Estes kits, I think my father wanted me to keep my fingers; but as aforementioned, I had my ways...

BTW the hot squirt gun back in the day (1965) was a accurate Luger with a pump trigger.

Bgrigg wrote:

NASA has turned into a huge bureaucracy who spends more money each year on administration than space programs. We’ve ended up with drunk astronauts who sleep around. I consider the space shuttle a "waste" because had we taken the last Saturn V and used it, instead of turning it into a roadside attraction, we (meaning the world) would have a base on the moon. NASA took our dream and put it in a geosynchronous orbit. I blame the late Senator William Proxmire, who used to hand out “the Golden Fleece” which he claimed was examples of tax dollars being wasted. He took the big money away from the Space Program and handed it to the dairy farmers in Wisconsin. Take a look at how much the US spends on farm subsidies and compare that to the entire budget of NASA and think hard on it.

I have to pretty much agree with you here.  But, keep in mind that the Apollo program was doomed by 1966, which was the peak year of funding for it.  The Nixon administration strangled it.  That wasn't NASA, that was an administration and country that - by Apollo 12 - had lost its interest in the fact that Apollo really wasn't about "science", it was about National Pride.  Once we realized we were going to be the first on the moon no matter what, it became a moot point and our attentions turned elsewhere.  Unfortunately, everything else went with it.

I remember well the Golden Fleece awards.  SETI was also a recipient of such a noble award.  But, in many ways, nothing has changed.  There are no LEADERS in our country that are LEADING.  They are doing their own pet projects, pet wars, pet spendings, etc. to make sure they stay in office for as long as they can.  They don't care about anything but themselves, their wallets and their votes.  None of them have VISION, which is what it takes to look beyond The Office and do something useful/beneficial for Mankind.

There will really only be two things that will find us spending a lot of money to get to Mars:

1) The Chinese getting there first

2) The discovery of incontrovertible evidence of life on Mars

Short of either or both of these two happening, we will watch the Universe from LEO at best.

-Ro

Persephones_Dream wrote:

Bgrigg wrote: NASA has turned into a huge bureaucracy who spends more money each year on administration than space programs. We’ve ended up with drunk astronauts who sleep around. I consider the space shuttle a "waste" because had we taken the last Saturn V and used it, instead of turning it into a roadside attraction, we (meaning the world) would have a base on the moon. NASA took our dream and put it in a geosynchronous orbit. I blame the late Senator William Proxmire, who used to hand out “the Golden Fleece” which he claimed was examples of tax dollars being wasted. He took the big money away from the Space Program and handed it to the dairy farmers in Wisconsin. Take a look at how much the US spends on farm subsidies and compare that to the entire budget of NASA and think hard on it.   I have to pretty much agree with you here.  But, keep in mind that the Apollo program was doomed by 1966, which was the peak year of funding for it.  The Nixon administration strangled it.  That wasn't NASA, that was an administration and country that - by Apollo 12 - had lost its interest in the fact that Apollo really wasn't about "science", it was about National Pride.  Once we realized we were going to be the first on the moon no matter what, it became a moot point and our attentions turned elsewhere.  Unfortunately, everything else went with it. I remember well the Golden Fleece awards.  SETI was also a recipient of such a noble award.  But, in many ways, nothing has changed.  There are no LEADERS in our country that are LEADING.  They are doing their own pet projects, pet wars, pet spendings, etc. to make sure they stay in office for as long as they can.  They don't care about anything but themselves, their wallets and their votes.  None of them have VISION, which is what it takes to look beyond The Office and do something useful/beneficial for Mankind. There will really only be two things that will find us spending a lot of money to get to Mars: 1) The Chinese getting there first 2) The discovery of incontrovertible evidence of life on Mars Short of either or both of these two happening, we will watch the Universe from LEO at best. -Ro

All politicians are concerned with is their "legacy"...the offices of Govt. (particlarly the Presidential) are now their personal quests for immortality (in the History books)...and I am not so sure that even your two examples:

1) The Chinese getting there first

2) The discovery of incontrovertible evidence of life on Mars

...will be enough for us to act...I believe today's generation and culture could care less if the Chinese got there first (let them spend their blood and treasure)...not to mention the culture of wanting to let everyone "win"...don't want to hurt the feelings of the Chinese...I'll bet the Chinese have better disciplined astronauts to be sure...

Mansteins revenge wrote:

All politicians are concerned with is their "legacy"...the offices of Govt. (particlarly the Presidential) are now their personal quests for immortality (in the History books)...and I am not so sure that even your two examples: 1) The Chinese getting there first 2) The discovery of incontrovertible evidence of life on Mars ...will be enough for us to act...I believe today's generation and culture could care less if the Chinese got there first (let them spend their blood and treasure)...not to mention the culture of wanting to let everyone "win"...don't want to hurt the feelings of the Chinese...I'll bet the Chinese have better disciplined astronauts to be sure...

Sigh, you're probably right. The newer generation doesn't seem to care about much at all, except their own pleasure. The Chinese or Russians (they're not gone yet!) will get there first, to our regret. Somehow given the history of both of those regimes, I doubt they will make good landlords of space. 

Alas, I do basically agree with you guys here.  Our nation has turned itself inward, to personal pleasures and distractions, and few - if any - care about the Greater Good of Mankind (whatever that actually is).

The only reason I mentioned the finding of incontrovertible proof of life on Mars as being a major impetus to get us there is because that is precisely what happened when the science community announced the finding of ALH84001 (meteorite from Mars with very curious *fossils* embedded in it).  The debate of ALH84001 is still raging, but it did fuel a lot of money for the current batch of Mars rovers and orbiters that weren't even thought of at the time of the announcement. One thing is for sure - without ALH84001, we would not have Spirit, Opportunity, MRO, etc.  So, that was at least partially a good thing.

I suspect that we Americans (and I know not everyone here is American) are witnessing the Elder Days of what was once a shining example of scientific pursuit and discovery.  We no longer have the R&D and, worse yet, the Vision, to seek out and discovery/invent and lead in the world of science like we once had.  Our R&D is practically dead.  Most of our science/tech jobs are being offshored.  What kind of a picture (and inspiration) does this draw for our young people, the same young people who *might* have been a part of all of this otherwise?

-Ro

Ro,

You're right about the lack of R&D. One of the blogs I read daily is Jerry Pournelle (scifi writer and computer bon vivant) and I echo his concerns over NASA. He worked as a Statistical Engineer for JPL in the Mercury/Gemini days and was the Chairman of the Citizens Advisory Council on National Space Policy. He was also the founding President of Pepperdine Research Institute. He is the person I stole "I saw the first man on the moon, I never thought I would see the last" from.

His son works for XCOR the private rocketship company, and they've been struggling to find an American educated aerodynamicist. We've not only lost most of the ability to do R&D (Bell Labs and SPARC are sorely missed), but we've lost the manufacturing ability that was once a given. We could not duplicate the D-Day effort. Imagine building 27,000 B-17s these days!

Edit My mistake, I check Jerry's site and realized that my memory was faulty (I read the posting on the 16th). It's an AERODYNAMICIST they require! My apologies!! Now where are my glasses? /edit

OK...I'm really not one to wave the flag and espouse that the United States is the greatest country in the world - mostly because it's just that attitude that has most of the world wanting to see us take it on the chin.  We shouldn't try to be the world's policeman, or shove democracy down the worlds throat.  I think every country has their good and bad side, but we all populate this one world.

However, I believe that if you are not American, you don't have the right to criticize what NASA has/has not done or become.  Spend your energy - and money - getting your own governments to build the next generation of space vehicle and go back to the Moon, go to Mars or wherever.  Otherwise what's the point? 

Now can we all please just get along!

Funny thing, Rich. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Canada contributes a decent amount of research funds, training and astronauts to NASA. The aforementioned Canada Arm is just a small part of what Canada does to help our neighbor. The recent space walk record was made by Canadian Dr. Dave Williams. So you see, my tax dollars ARE being used to partially fund NASA, and that gives me the right to express my opinion.

Besides, we are mostly getting along! 

Bondoman -

You are quite correct and Yes...I meant U.S. Citizen .

Funny thing, Rich. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Bgrigg-

I agree 100%!  It just seemd to me that this thread was turning into a U.S./NASA bashing exercise and I didn't think it was quite fair for non U.S. citizens to be so negative since very few nations have put as much money and hardware into space as the U.S. - and for the benefit of all humans!

Canada contributes a decent amount of research funds, training and astronauts to NASA. The aforementioned Canada Arm is just a small part of what Canada does to help our neighbor. The recent space walk record was made by Canadian Dr. Dave Williams. So you see, my tax dollars ARE being used to partially fund NASA, and that gives me the right to express my opinion. Besides, we are mostly getting along!

Yes, Canada has provided to NASA...probably more than I know and I in no means want to diminish any country's contribution. 

However, IMO the tone of this thread thus far seems to be wondering why and/or bashing the U.S./NASA for not going back to the Moon or to Mars and beyond.  I simply wish to let my opinion be known that no country has to wait for the U.S. or NASA to do these things.  I'd love to see the Maple Leaf, or the Ukranian flag on Mars.

Just belly up to the bar, pony up the big bucks and be the next nation to plant a flag on another celestial body ! 

you are forgetting that launching from the moon, you are now in a different plane.  From earth, you are taking advantage of the earth's movement through the solar system which is around the sun, similiar to mars.  The moon on the other hand, revolves around the earth.  While in a similiar plane, we lose the energy of moving in the same plane as mars.  The premise is DIRECT launch to mars without going into earth orbit first. If you want an excellent book which goes through the math on this, I very strongly recommend Rob Zubrin's book The Case for Mars.  He basically published the concepts we have been promoting for a very long time: live off the land.  He describes how to get to Mars within 10 years at a significantly reduced cost.  Again, there is additional risk involved but nothing I would not be willing to take on myself, given the opportunity.

Here is VERY brief summary of Zubrin's model to get to Mars.  Again, a significant savings is based on using available technology such as the Energia booster...very high payload capability and man-rated.  Fascinating concepts....

 The plan involves launching an unmanned Earth Return Vehicle (ERV) directly from Earth's surface to Mars using a heavy-lift booster (no bigger than the Saturn V used for the Apollo missions), containing a supply of hydrogen, a chemical plant and a small nuclear reactor.

The ERV would take some eight months to reach Mars. Once there, a relatively simple set of chemical reactions (the Sabatier reaction coupled with electrolysis) would combine a small amount of hydrogen carried by the ERV with the carbon dioxide of the Martian atmosphere to create up to 112 tonnes of methane and oxygen propellants, 96 tonnes of which would be needed to return the ERV to Earth at the end of the mission. This process would take approximately ten months to complete.

Some 26 months after the ERV was originally launched from Earth, a second vehicle, the Mars Habitat Unit, would be launched on a high-energy transfer to Mars carrying a crew of four. This vehicle would take some six months to reach Mars. During the trip, artificial gravity would be generated by tying the spent upper stage of the booster to the Habitat Unit, and setting them both rotating about a common axis.

On reaching Mars, the useless spent upper stage would be jettisoned, with the Habitat Unit aerobraking into Mars orbit before soft-landing in proximity to the ERV.

Once on Mars, the crew would spend 18 months on the surface, carrying out a range of scientific research, aided by a small rover vehicle carried aboard their Habitat Unit, and powered by excess methane produced by the ERV.

To return, they would use the ERV, leaving the habitat for the possible use of subsequent explorers. The propulsion stage of the ERV would be used as a counterweight to generate artificial gravity for the trip back.

The initial cost estimate for Mars Direct was put at $55 billion, to be paid over ten years.

I think the biggest challenge of sending humans to Mars is not the technology or the money but more Psychological.

We do not know the effect of such a trip to humans.  We made several experiences in the arctic regions where people were isolated for more than a year and several problems occured. 

On Mars, you are very far from home and I think it could be very hard for a human soul to withstand that for such a long period of time.  A very few people will afford doing this.

I really look forward for the next big exploration project, I think we have alot of work to do before going there but I also think we have all the reasons of the world to do it.

PontiacRich wrote:

Bondoman - You are quite correct and Yes...I meant U.S. Citizen . Funny thing, Rich. We are all entitled to our opinions. Bgrigg- I agree 100%!  It just seemd to me that this thread was turning into a U.S./NASA bashing exercise and I didn't think it was quite fair for non U.S. citizens to be so negative since very few nations have put as much money and hardware into space as the U.S. - and for the benefit of all humans! Canada contributes a decent amount of research funds, training and astronauts to NASA. The aforementioned Canada Arm is just a small part of what Canada does to help our neighbor. The recent space walk record was made by Canadian Dr. Dave Williams. So you see, my tax dollars ARE being used to partially fund NASA, and that gives me the right to express my opinion. Besides, we are mostly getting along! Yes, Canada has provided to NASA...probably more than I know and I in no means want to diminish any country's contribution.  However, IMO the tone of this thread thus far seems to be wondering why and/or bashing the U.S./NASA for not going back to the Moon or to Mars and beyond.  I simply wish to let my opinion be known that no country has to wait for the U.S. or NASA to do these things.  I'd love to see the Maple Leaf, or the Ukranian flag on Mars. Just belly up to the bar, pony up the big bucks and be the next nation to plant a flag on another celestial body !

...the Ukraine has better things to do...someone else fund this expensive field trip/ego trip...

steelrudi wrote:

Why is Space so unpopular?  Tell me when will the average person be able to go into space?  Not in our lifetimes.  I like Sci-fi, but real space to me is a bust.  We will never see the day that man travels to another galaxy, or lives for prolonged periods of time on another planet in the Solar system.  Most people, kids even tend to gravitate towards what is on the ground, or close to it.  Don't forget video games either.  I have problems getting me kids into modeling let alone a specific subject of modeling.  I have modeled ICBM's. Does that count as space?  Best of luck.

I have never looked at space/astronomy/astrophysics (which I do for a living) as something that is "for me".  My exploration of the Universe is something I do to seek the answers to my own questions about it and to share those discoveries/revelations with mankind, for future generations.  I would love to go into space and travel to the moon, Mars, Titan or another planetary system.  Barring some very sudden and extremely miraculous discovery, that is not going to happen in my lifetime.  But *MAYBE* something I do/discover/come to understand about the Universe may, some day, become one of the small bricks in the larger wall of knowledge that will lead us back to the stars - which is where we came from in the first place.  All great adventures are built one brick of understanding at a time.  If I can be a small part of a larger puzzle that helps spacecraft and/or a few humans to reach these objectives, then I have succeeded beyond my wildest imagination!

As for your kids and video games...well....I feel sorry for kids today.  They have nothing left to ignite their imaginations.  All they get to do is sit in front of a tv screen or monitor and push buttons to *kill the enemies*......Our Nation and our world is beginning to stare inwards and away from our destiny in the stars.

-Ro

But Manstein as a true Ukrainian you must know how many of your people have been/are cosmonauts? 5, 10, 15 ? More than all US Astronauts combined? US Astronauts on the Moon? Or, but this is inponderable, Ukrainian kids who can name the major craters on the Moon? 1000, 5000, 20,000?

Please answer.

But not enough to prevent you from posting, eh?

Bgrigg wrote:

But not enough to prevent you from posting, eh?

No kidding, I think he's beat us all for posting in this thread.... must not be THAT boring. 

espins1 wrote:

Bgrigg wrote: But not enough to prevent you from posting, eh? No kidding, I think he's beat us all for posting in this thread.... must not be THAT boring.

...actually, it was to be my last post, but since you asked, THIS is my last post...

Mansteins revenge wrote:

espins1 wrote:  Bgrigg wrote: But not enough to prevent you from posting, eh? No kidding, I think he's beat us all for posting in this thread.... must not be THAT boring.  ...actually, it was to be my last post, but since you asked, THIS is my last post...

Are you sure that's your last? 

"...the Ukraine has better things to do...someone else fund this expensive field trip/ego trip..."

Actually, Ukraine is a player in space.  They own a significant piece of SpaceLaunch and provide Zenit boosters.  Also, in the US program, there are a significant number of Ukrainians in engineering and senior management, and don't forget Heidi Stefanyshyshn-Piper, who flew on the shuttle just a few months ago.

Going back to the question of the forum, what would it take for people on here to get back into space modeling or just getting there in the first place?  For me, it would be kits of the quality from Atomic City of some of the craft from history.  If you look at the prebuilts Code 3 made a few years ago, they are going in the range of $400-900 on eBay.  I belive accuracy, quality, and a consistent line in scale would do it.  I also believe, that anything under 1/48 probably will not excite the builder.  Larger scale offers the details and ability to scratch build modules that the smaller scales just don't provide.  I have done a great deal with lighting over the years and displays with sound as well.  Makes a huge difference. How about a group of us doing a 1:1 build of a craft and donating it to a children's science museum?

It's been so long, that I don't remember if I even posted on this topic but here I go (again maybe).

I think for some the lack of popularity is due to the fact that there just isn't any excitement for the Space program anymore.  Back in the day when it was the U.S.(us) versus the "Evil Soviet Empire"(them), there was a genuine fear of who was doing what to who and how was that going to affect us.  It was in the news ALOT more than it is now.  Today for example(Sunday Dec 9), how many people knew the Shuttle was set for launch and had been scrubbed and postponed until 1/2/08?  How many people even knew it was suppose to have luanched on Thursday the 6th?  There's just no excitement there anymore.  I'm different as it's been pretty much going on in my back yard since I was a kid in the 70's.  I followed Skylab and the beginnings of the Shuttle program.

Possibly with the beginning of the Constelation program(How many people even know what that is), and the Chinese planning on putting a man on the moon, it will respark the interest in the technology that will get us there.

I'm happy to say that my 4 year old son is extremely interested in the space program and the Shuttle especially.  We go to Kennedy Spcae center on a fairly regular basis.  We go there more often than to Disney World, See World, Busch Gradens combined.  We still have not seen a launch up close but had intended to this last trip.  Maybe next Feb 14th....  I have a few Shuttle kits that have not been put togther as yet and each time I go to KSC, I pick up another one.  The last one for me to get my hands on will be the Revell Saturn V rocket.

With all of us here in this forum, I would like to ask for something from FSM.  The magazine deals primarily with military models.  How could we get FSM to have a section or article several times a year on space and sci-fi models?

If you look at the products coming from Atomic City, Real Space and Custom Replicas, there is so much to review and work with.  Atomic City designed the Mercury 1:12 model that is spectacular.  The 2001 Space Odyssey models they have are great as well.  Real Space has many models and enhancements for old Revell and Monogram models, and on and on...

Anyone other than me that would be interested in this?