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What size needle for fine lines?

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  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by tyamada on Sunday, April 4, 2010 12:01 PM

Brigg:

I'm not splitting hairs, he is saying that a side feed air brush is a bottom(siphon) feed, when the bottom feed bottle is used and is a gravity feed when the cup adapter is used (where the cup is above the airbrush).

He gave an example of the Renegade Spirit which comes with a bottle and a color cup.          

http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Renegade_Series.asp

It's like the Badger 360 that is convertible from a bottom(siphon) or gravity feed.

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, April 4, 2010 1:37 PM

tyamada

Brigg:

I'm not splitting hairs, he is saying that a side feed air brush is a bottom(siphon) feed, when the bottom feed bottle is used and is a gravity feed when the cup adapter is used (where the cup is above the airbrush).

He gave an example of the Renegade Spirit which comes with a bottle and a color cup.          

http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Renegade_Series.asp

It's like the Badger 360 that is convertible from a bottom(siphon) or gravity feed.

 

 

We're almost saying the same thing. Isn't language fun? Confused I believe what is happening here is we are getting our mords wixed up! Big Smile

Ken is actually calling it a gravity/artesian well attachment, and with a jar adapter it turns it into a true bottom fed airbrush. I've noticed that Ken likes to use the words bottom fed, instead of siphon fed, I'll come back to this.

In the case of a side feed airbrush the color cup attaches to the side, and the tube is completely horizontal. As we all know, gravity only works in one direction, and that is down. Gravity is considered an unstoppable force, but it actually quite weak, and it can't push paint sideways. The way a side feed works is by utilizing the principle of liquids seeking their own level. Air pressure is pushing down on the surface of the paint in the color cup and that is what is feeding the paint to the airbrush. An artesian well works by pressure from the ground above the well water and pushes the water to the surface. Hence Ken's description. But air pressure alone can't account for the paint getting into the air flow.

ALL airbrushes are, to a certain extent, siphon airbrushes, and this is why I think Ken eschews the word siphon to describe a bottom feed airbrush. It is the siphon created by the air supply that pulls the paint into the air flow where it atomizes.This is how the Badger 360 can be both gravity and bottom feed. If Badger made a side feed cup that fit the 360, it could also work as a side feed.

Gravity fed airbrushes drip the paint into the air flow, and don't use much of the air pressure to move the paint along. Too low, and the air brush can't atomize the paint properly and some of the pressure is required to keep the paint flowing smoothly, Run out of paint, and you'll notice that the airbrush will vacuum what paint there is out of the cup. You can even hear a little sucking sound as it evacuates the last bits of paint, leaving only what adheres to the surface behind. That is the siphon action that is created by the air pressure. Turn a gravity airbrush upside down and drop the cup lip into water and crank up the air pressure and you'll see that siphoning does in fact happen.

Bottom feed airbrushes are completely siphon action. They pull the paint up from the bottle or color cup, and require the most air pressure. Without sufficient air pressure, the paints stays put.

Side feed are somewhere between those. The "artesian" action delivers the paint and the siphon takes over. Air pressure is even weaker than gravity, and so you require slightly more air pressure than a completely gravity feed system.

Hence the reason I said it's half and half. Most people are only familiar with gravity or siphon/bottom. Side feed is halfway between the two. Throwing in artesian would only confound and confuse people.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by tyamada on Sunday, April 4, 2010 2:13 PM

Brigg

You should ask Ken for a more detailed explanation, he is a member here also.

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, April 4, 2010 3:17 PM

Tyamada,

With all due respect, my screen name is Bgrigg, not Brigg. It is my real name, and I respectfully ask that you spell it correctly.

If you wish to contact Ken, please do so. I have spent considerable time researching the various types of airbrushes.

Below are some definitions of side feed airbrushes. I have chosen sites that are "third party" IE places that do not have a vested interested in selling airbrushes. (all emphasis is mine):

Wikipedia: "Paint can be fed by gravity from a paint reservoir sitting atop the airbrush (called gravity feed) or siphoned from a reservoir mounted below (bottom feed) or on the side (side feed)."

Wet Canvas: "There are also two main ways to deliver the paint to the internal mixing airbrush. The first is siphon. Most siphon feed airbrushes have side feed cups or paint jars that are plugged into the side or bottom fo the airbrush."

The Tanning Store: Siphon-feed airbrushes can be further classified to bottom-feed or side-feed airbrushes,

Here is an image of the 100 Side Feed airbrush (source: Badger Airbrush), clearly showing that the bottom of the cup is well below the body of the airbrush. Air pressure, or gravity is not enough to overcome the need for the airbrush to siphon paint from the cup to the body.

You will note that those sites all consider a side feed airbrush to be a siphon feed system. However, a certain amount of paint is fed into the body by forces other than siphon. I stand by my words that describe the side feed as half and half.


So long folks!

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by tyamada on Sunday, April 4, 2010 5:57 PM

Bgrigg:

Boy are you sensitive. Sorry If I offended. 

You are showing a side feed airbrush with a suction style cup.  If you attach a gravity feed cup you get gravity feed.  That's where you have the reservoir above the outlet to the airbrush.  I may rely on suction when the  cup is almost empty. 

Here is a link to a side feed airbrush that claims it's a gravity feed.

http://www.wetpaintart.com/closeup.asp?cid=1193&pid=20596&offset=0

Enough said, I will just drop the debate.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, April 4, 2010 6:52 PM

Really.

I asked you to use my name properly, and I'm sensitive and a know it all.

We were discussing the Badger 100SF, and you post an image of a Grex, and I'm a sensitive know it all.

Wow.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, April 5, 2010 2:25 AM

tyamada

You are showing a side feed airbrush with a suction style cup.  If you attach a gravity feed cup you get gravity feed.

Not necessarily. It is how the paint enters the airbrush that determines if it is a gravity feed airbrush or a siphon-feed airbrush by definition, not physics

I would say that Bgrigg's words saying, "I stand by my words that describe the side feed as half and half." is the most correct. It does siphon paint somewhat even when the side feed cup is above the airbrush.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Monday, April 5, 2010 1:07 PM
You know what we need? A scientifically approached head-to-head-to-head research project considering the variables being argued here: needle size, taper length, gravity fed, side-fed, bottle-fed, etc. This isn't a face-off between forum-goers, but Keilau, Bill, Mike V and Tyamada each perform the same isolated spray tests with a pre-determined number of airbrushes. Too bad we all live so far away. Throw in some beer and it would make for a good spectator event, as well! Maybe we could determine once and for all the "key" factor for line width and sell our findings to all of the airbrush manufacturers...

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Monday, April 5, 2010 1:23 PM

I was going to suggest dueling pistols at 10 paces!

 

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, April 5, 2010 1:26 PM

But we all already know that the biggest determining factor for fine lines is...

PRACTICE!

Nozzle size, taper and paint supply just make that more or less difficult.

But I'm up for the beer! Beer

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, April 5, 2010 1:51 PM

Bgrigg

But we all already know that the biggest determining factor for fine lines is...

PRACTICE!

Nozzle size, taper and paint supply just make that more or less difficult.

But I'm up for the beer! Beer

As am I Bill! Now the contest part I would have to keep out of as I don't want you all to look bad. Big Smile

That was humor by the way, less I be misconstrued. Wink

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Monday, April 5, 2010 2:06 PM
I specifically invited Bill so he can bring some of that Canadian beer!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, April 5, 2010 2:55 PM

mucker
I specifically invited Bill so he can bring some of that Canadian beer!

Canadian beer? Well maybe they have some that's palatable. Stick out tongue

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Monday, April 5, 2010 3:01 PM

Oh, no, Mike...now you're opening a completely new can of worms! Beer

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, April 5, 2010 3:04 PM

LOL!

I suggest we don't drink the beer until AFTER the competition, or none of us will do very well.

I will put any big name Canadian beer up against any big name US beer, as it's all swill. At least we put some alcohol in ours!

Both countries have plenty of Micro Brew beer that is top notch. Guess we're going to have a beer competition, too!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, April 5, 2010 3:40 PM

Bgrigg

at least we put some alcohol in ours!

Both countries have plenty of Micro Brew beer that is top notch. Guess we're going to have a beer competition, too!

I will put up Arrogant Bastard Ale against anything up in the great white north eh! Big Smile

By the way it is 7.2% ABV.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Monday, April 5, 2010 4:26 PM

Bring some Sleeman's, Bill!

If we start the beer early, we'll just change it to a squiggly line contest.

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Monday, April 5, 2010 6:10 PM

Having lived in the Pacific Northwest for the last 15 years, and spent quite a lot of time in British Columbia, Canada, I am of the opinion that American Microbrews are better, Canadian store brands are better, but tie breaker goes to the lovely ladies of the great white North!

Chris

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, April 5, 2010 6:34 PM

And as a Canadian for 15 years, who has lived in the Pacific Southwest (of Canada, that is) since 1967, I would have to agree.

 

So long folks!

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