OPINIONS?: IWATA...

sizzlak wrote:

You can also look at an Omni 4000. You can get the same detail as the Eclipse for about $65. US.

The Badger Company has taken over production of Thayer & Chandler products. I still can find the Omni 4000G at DixieArt for $79. For the similar price range, you may also consider the Iwata Revolution HP-CR Gravity Feed for slightly less. I don't have either to offer first hand opinion. But I am not sure that Badger is committed to continue the Omni line.

The new Badger Renegade and Paasche Talon are also priced about the same and gravity feed design.

I have 3 Iwatas - 2 Eclipses (1 bottom and 1 gravity) and 1 Revolution gravity.  Absolutely love them.  Easy to break down and clean and they spray beautifully.

-Fred

keilau wrote:

sizzlak wrote: You can also look at an Omni 4000. You can get the same detail as the Eclipse for about $65. US. The Badger Company has taken over production of Thayer & Chandler products. I still can find the Omni 4000G at DixieArt for $79. For the similar price range, you may also consider the Iwata Revolution HP-CR Gravity Feed for slightly less. I don't have either to offer first hand opinion. But I am not sure that Badger is committed to continue the Omni line. The new Badger Renegade and Paasche Talon are also priced about the same and gravity feed design.

Badger has been producing the Thayer & Chandler line for several years now.

Years ago Badger produced parts for Thayer & Chandler airbrushes before the Badger name was even known.  

MikeV wrote:

Badger has been producing the Thayer & Chandler line for several years now. Years ago Badger produced parts for Thayer & Chandler airbrushes before the Badger name was even known.

You can find the Thayer & Chandler Company history here. Sad!

http://www.airbrushmuseum.com/airbrush_history_chicago1.htm

Both were in Chicago, but are different entite until 1999. It does seem that Badger has been keeping the Thayer & Chandler as a separate line.

keilau wrote:

sizzlak wrote: You can also look at an Omni 4000. You can get the same detail as the Eclipse for about $65. US. I don't have either to offer first hand opinion. But I am not sure that Badger is committed to continue the Omni line.

Yes Badger is and has been continuing the T&C line for quite some time now and the Omni 4000 is an excellent airbrush. I use it more than any other of my airbrushes.  

Mike,

My experience with airbrush is limited. I used a Paasche single action, external mix AB for the past 20 years and just recently purchased an Iwata Eclipse HP-CS AB. What I offered here is just my recent shopping experience. The Badger, Iwata and Paasche are easily found at local store and on the net. No one locally carries the Thayer & Chandler AB so I cannot see it before purchase.

There is no question that the Omni 4000 is an excellent airbrush and I have seen many positive comment at various airbrush websites. I sure will benefit from the suggestions from expert users like you. I decided on the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS after the reply from Gerald Voigt.

When I saw the new Badger Renegade, I was wondering if it was the beginning of the end of T&C? I have no inside information on that.

Thanks for the input, Gigatron.

Yeah, that's what I'm hearing and reading so I think I'll give it a try.  I'll probably step-up to the 3550 SBS which has a side-feed gravity-fed 1/2 oz cup and a siphon-fed 1oz bottle.  I figure I'll kill two birds with one stone.

keilau wrote:

Mike, My experience with airbrush is limited. I used a Paasche single action, external mix AB for the past 20 years and just recently purchased an Iwata Eclipse HP-CS AB. What I offered here is just my recent shopping experience. The Badger, Iwata and Paasche are easily found at local store and on the net. No one locally carries the Thayer & Chandler AB so I cannot see it before purchase. There is no question that the Omni 4000 is an excellent airbrush and I have seen many positive comment at various airbrush websites. I sure will benefit from the suggestions from expert users like you. I decided on the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS after the reply from Gerald Voigt. When I saw the new Badger Renegade, I was wondering if it was the beginning of the end of T&C? I have no inside information on that.

I have not heard of any thoughts of stopping production of the T&C line of airbrushes so I don't know. The Renegade was brought out to be Badger's flagship airbrush and compete with the other high end airbrushes out there like the Micron, etc.

I have yet to try one yet as Ken has not sent me a sample but I am sure I will try it in the near future.  

MikeV wrote:

The Renegade was brought out to be Badger's flagship airbrush and compete with the other high end airbrushes out there like the Micron, etc. I have yet to try one yet as Ken has not sent me a sample but I am sure I will try it in the near future.

The Badger Renegade is priced around the mid range T&C Omni, Iwata Eclipse, or about 1/4 the price of the Iwata Custom Micron. It is really ambitious to aim the Renegade at the high-end Iwata Microns.

Let us know how the Renegade and the Custom Micron compare when you get a sample. It would be really interesting to see how they each do. I can't imagine myself buying the Microns, but the Renegade is much more in my budget range.

Coast Airbrush has the gravity feed Renegade Velocity in stock.  I may get one for Father's Day.  It sounds like an incredible brush from all accounts.  My only concern is will the .21mm tip be too small for Model Master enamels.  Mike?

E

keilau wrote:

MikeV wrote: The Renegade was brought out to be Badger's flagship airbrush and compete with the other high end airbrushes out there like the Micron, etc. I have yet to try one yet as Ken has not sent me a sample but I am sure I will try it in the near future.   The Badger Renegade is priced around the mid range T&C Omni, Iwata Eclipse, or about 1/4 the price of the Iwata Custom Micron. It is really ambitious to aim the Renegade at the high-end Iwata Microns. Let us know how the Renegade and the Custom Micron compare when you get a sample. It would be really interesting to see how they each do. I can't imagine myself buying the Microns, but the Renegade is much more in my budget range.

Actually the Sotar 20/20 is every bit the equivelent of a Micron for 1/3 the cost but not enough people know that as they are Iwata brainwashed.

I have never used a Micron as there is no way I would spend that ungodly amount of money for an airbrush that offers nothing to this hobby that I can't get for a fraction of the cost.  

I still say there is absolutely no reason to buy a Micron for this hobby except maybe for bragging rights?

H3nav wrote:

Coast Airbrush has the gravity feed Renegade Velocity in stock.  I may get one for Father's Day.  It sounds like an incredible brush from all accounts.  My only concern is will the .21mm tip be too small for Model Master enamels.  Mike?   E

I am not sure about that E, it's hard to say as I have not used one.

I have found that even a fine tip and needle in a Badger 100LG or an Vega 1000, or even a Paasche VL does not spray near as reliably as the medium tip and the line width is negligable between the two but once again that goes to show you that needle taper determines line width not diameter. It always makes me laugh how modelers have won competitions with Paasche H's, Badgers and many others and yet people somehow think the Iwata will make them a better painter. I wish it were that easy.

I'll jump in and thank Mike here.....

I'd been a big Aztek 470 fan, and was also quite happy with my Paasche VL. When both of those failed, I had to buy a new airbrush, and I got a Badger 200G and 155.

Both of those airbrushes- the Badgers- just blew away the other two for me. I was able to do pretty good stuff with the other two, but the Badgers made it easier. It's hard to describe, and maybe it's just my own personal style and technique and Badger just fits it well. But I've been really, really happy, and able to grow my skills further.

There's no magic formula, just practice, practice, practice. But with my Badgers, I realize I don't have to fight the airbrush or make allowances for it's operation.

Please don't take this as a bash on those others.... it's certainly not intended to be. I used them for over a year and enjoyed them... they just both had some mechanical problems about the same time, and I just decided to try something new. And anyone who's everseen Brett Green knows an Aztek can do world class work.

But I'm sold on Badger- fan for life! Thanks Mike for helping me out!

My opinion on Iwata is fairly high, I feel you get what you pay for.

What is Iwata brainwashed?

Dr. Faust wrote:

What is Iwata brainwashed?

That is when the unknowing have been told over and over that they need an Iwata when they don't. If you like Iwata that is fine I have no problem with that but when people start saying they are better that's what bothers me.

What is "better" anyhow? It's subjective.

Is Snap-on "better" than Mac, or Proto or Craftsman? See my point? 

If you can't paint with a Badger, Paasche, or other brand then the Iwata will not make you into Dru Blair and that is what people need to learn.

I have better results with my Iwata's than anything else I've tried.  They are wonderfully easy to use and VERY easy to disassemble and clean.

I like the cheaper ones (Eclipse and Revolution) the best.   The Eclipse and Revolution lines are not more expensive than anything else that is comparable (my two cents, anyway). 

My fav is the Eclipse HP-BS.   I use a Revolution  CR with a .5 nozzle for clear-coats.   I'm tempted to try  the .3 nozzle Revolution BR.  I'll bet that would be a real workhorse of an airbrush.

Save yourself the cost of future upgrades - buy the best now~!  

Jodet wrote:

Save yourself the cost of future upgrades - buy the best now~!

The "best?"

The best is what works for each individual not any particular brand.

Come on people! Get a clue already!

"Come on people! Get a clue already! "

Ah, the personal attacks begin already.   Nice forum you've got here. 

I have lots of clues, you apparently don't have much personality or the ability to be anything but very literal.

First warning. 

Jodet wrote:

"Come on people! Get a clue already! " Ah, the personal attacks begin already.   Nice forum you've got here.  I have lots of clues, you apparently don't have much personality or the ability to be anything but very literal. First warning.

Personal attacks? What are you smoking? 

Calling someone's bluff when they make a statement that one brand of airbrush is, "the best" is not a personal attack. If you like one brand more than another than more power to you, but making blanket statements that have no basis in fact doesn't fly with those of us who actually know airbrushes.  

Warning?

You amuse me newbie!  

firesmacker wrote:

I love Mike

Huh? You been drinking Firesmacker?

MikeV wrote:

firesmacker wrote: I love Mike Huh? You been drinking Firesmacker?

I spent all day cooking a 6 LB pork roastr on the rotiserrie and 10 Lbs of ribs and about 90 drumettes in the smoker. So, yeah.

MikeV wrote:

Jodet wrote: "Come on people! Get a clue already! " Ah, the personal attacks begin already.   Nice forum you've got here.  I have lots of clues, you apparently don't have much personality or the ability to be anything but very literal. First warning.     Personal attacks? What are you smoking?  Calling someone's bluff when they make a statement that one brand of airbrush is, "the best" is not a personal attack. If you like one brand more than another than more power to you, but making blanket statements that have no basis in fact doesn't fly with those of us who actually know airbrushes.   Warning? You amuse me newbie!

Both of you, stop it!

Gah, the infernal and internal Iwata vs. Badger argument! Fact is both brands make excellent airbrushes and stating one is better than the other is quite as silly as claiming Ford is better than Chevy or vice versa.

Jodet makes a good point about buying the top of the line airbrush. The difference in money is comparatively small considering many of us will easily spend the difference between a "low" end Iwata or a "high" end Badger or Iwata on a single kit.

Mike makes a good point that it matters not the tool, but the talent in the hands. 

Giving each other warnings and resorting to Newbie name calling isn't helping anyone out, and certainly doesn't foster a feeling of brotherhood on the forums.

All that said, I believe that $70 is an ample amount to spend on an airbrush. Very few of us on these forums requires a high end airbrush. You can get either the Badger 100LG or the Iwata Revolution CR with only a $1 difference between them from Dixie Art. I'll bet that same $1 that you would be hard pressed to tell the difference in use.

IMHO Badger, being US made, is easier and cheaper to get parts for. Full disclosure, I own three different Badgers (200-20, 150 and 100LG) and a T&C Omni 4000. 

Gents,

This argument is like the eternal "what is the right amount of weathering" discussion. Everyone has an opinion and everyone's right. Let's agree to disagree, step back from the personal antagonism, realize that your personal choice of airbrush is "the best" for you, and respect other people's decision to use what they like. I've used several, some I liked and some I didn't, but I almost always come back to one because I know the results I'm going to get with it.

Also, the moderators here are the only ones who will give warnings. Let this be one.

Hey All,

Thanks for all the replies and input.  Since I started this thread with a request for opinions based on experience about Iwata's functionality I must say I'm a little disappointed it's degenerated into the same 'ol tired Ford vs. Chevy feud.  That's not what I asked because the "best" of anything, a relative term at most, means nothing except wasted money in the hands of an unskilled user and a skilled user can do wonders with anything.  And there's always the self-appointed expert who deigns to set everyone straight about such blindingly obvious distinctions as if the mostly old farts like me around here didn't know any better.

I'm not without experience with airbrushes, in fact, I've owned my Paasche VL for almost 20 years and have done some respectable work with it and always thought it adequate.  Until I recently got to handle some Iwatas and Badgers after starting this thread.

First thing I noticed was the Iwata's action was way smoother, precise and has a more even pull than my paasche.  The next was the needle is better supported and centered and remains so throughout the action's travel. And the overall tooling of the unit seems of a higher quality and precision.  Same for the better Badgers I examined which I'm sure do excellent work as well based on the reports I read here.  Downside for me with the Iwata is it has no set-wheel to hold the needle open at a given point, which I like on my Paasche. The Badgers have it.  But the clincher is the Iwata can use all the same hoses and fittings and will accept my Paasche cups and bottles whereas the Badger would require a complete duplication of accessories and changeout if I want to switch airbrushes mid-session.  So, I guess I'd just have to get better at holding the needle steady. 

And given that the particular Eclipse models I'm looking at are under or just above $100 they are probably less in today's dollars as what I paid for my Paasche 18 years ago. 

Going to get me an Iwata. 

Thanks, guys.

Hey Mark,  if you are set on an Iwata, that's fine.  However, be advised that they do not use the same fittings on the air hose as the Passche.  An adapter would still be required unless you are using universal quick disconnects.  The Badger will accept the Paasche cups and bottles.  That's the route that I take as the Paasche bottles and cups are cheaper although the Badger bottles and cups have a nicer finish and feel.  The Badger Renegade is supposed to be the latest and greatest of the fine airbrushes and is enjoying good reviews by the airbrush artists on Airbrush.com.  My wife and daughter may get me one for Father's Day.  Bearair has free shipping on them until June first and the Renegades are on sale.  Another Badger choice is the 100lg.  Absolutely outstanding performance for the price.  And yes, I own four Iwata's, two Paasche's, and 15 Badger's.  It's a long story spanning 29 years and a Garage Sale.

E