I hate drama, but I need advice from dads (Hiking Grand Canyon with young kids)

Chris-I think you know that you don't want to involve your family to the risks, much less the family dynamics that are involved.  Talk with your wife, express your concerns-all valid-and she should agree with you.  Might be some hard feelings, but your kids & wife come first.

Just my two cents worth.

In short:  No.  For a multitude of reasons, but No!

You already know the right thing to do, and it doesn't matter whose feelings will be hurt. Even the thought of what could happen to your kids is motivation to put a stop to the trip, not to mention that you're not in  fighting trim or equipped to take "point". The hike down to the Colorado is no easy day trip, especially in late fall thru spring, and coming back up...... no way the kids are going to enjoy the "adventure", much less the adults. BAD IDEA.

Good luck with your situation!

Mike (former 16 yr. Arizona resident)

Chris

For a starters as a Canadian I had to google how many km's is 20 miles........lol

Anyways, as a parent of similar aged kids and a scout leader I would say no.  But by the tone of your post I would suggest you've already come to that conclusion.  There's no way that your kids will be able to carry anything that distance so you and your wife will be carrying your packs and all the kids stuff.  I had my scouts out last weekend and they were tired after only a couple km's, not 32 in 2 days.

Short answer is no.

Yeah, my 2cents is that adventures like that are for older kids. Not for ones quite so young. They most likely have many years ahead of them to do just this sort of thing when they can appreciate and enjoy it for the awesome experience that it can be. Trust your instincts and be dad! Responsibility means saying no to family members on occasion.

Yes I agree. I've done that hike to Phantom Ranch. It's not really too difficult, but on principle if you feel it's wrong then say so.

As an aside, if you ever do gear up the kids for any kind of long hike, don't buy new boots. Either try to find good supportive athletic shoes or get the boots far enough in advance that you can break them in.

Try a mule trip. The way you've described this upcoming fiasco, it sounds like a debacle ready to happen.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/mule_trips.htm

Well, I feel better. Judging by the replies, I'm not paranoid or overprotective like I thought I might be.

 A mule trip won't work due to cost. Also, I hear it's as or more strenuous than a hike due to the core strength needed to stay on the mule. Anyway, I'm not the one planning this trip.

  Thanks all, for the input so far.

Chris

Hey Chris- while my situation isn't quite like yours, me being in my second marriage I can appreciate your family dynamic (the first with no kids but a stubborn and set-in-her-ways mother-in-law, and the second with two step daughters). Given the details you provide about what your mother-in-law wants to plan involving your kids I agree that this sounds like too much. In your position I'd express your concerns with your wife and strongly recommend against participating. If your feelings aren't being heard perhaps you could consult with a park official or Ranger?

I sympathize with your efforts to keep the family peace. Best of luck.

Dave

GMorrison

Yes I agree. I've done that hike to Phantom Ranch. It's not really too difficult, but on principle if you feel it's wrong then say so.

As an aside, if you ever do gear up the kids for any kind of long hike, don't buy new boots. Either try to find good supportive athletic shoes or get the boots far enough in advance that you can break them in.

Yes, footwear for youngsters will be an issue. At that age, their feet, like the rest of the little buggers, grow like weeds. By the time you get their hiking shoes or boots broken in, they will have outgrown them. I would recommend something along the line of Hi-Techs, not a traditional boot, and not quite an athletic shoe. They break in quick enough, but can be pricey. But sporting good stores like Big5 often have their clearance of older styles for reasonable prices.

I have done a few scouting outings with my son as an assitant trekmaster, and based off of that experience, I can tell you that the youngters will have a far more difficult time with a 10 mile hump than older kids.

I completely change my previous response. I did not take into acount the ages of the kids. When I did it I was 25 years old and an experienced hiker.

This is a two day hike for fit adults. It's 6 hours down ( 4,400 feet change in elevation) and easily 8 hours back up. IT IS NOT A SINGLE DAY HIKE. Rooms at the ranch are super spartan and extremely expensive. She's got that covered, I guess, but it's really basic.

The trap is that there's no way to bail halfway through. Looking down at the river from the rim is one of those things. It looks really close, but it's not.

You will end up carrying that 5 year old on your back.

In reality what will happen is you will get out your credit card and put them on a donkey. And as far as that is concerned, if you take the longer trail, which is her plan, you'll be walking in donkey droppings the whole time.

THIS IS REALLY A BAD IDEA.

Send her to look at the NPS website.

One other thing. I don't know how you feel about this, but you'll encounter hundreds of strangers. On the trail, and also the big commercial rafts put out at the ranch. It's the kind of place where if you get separated from the kids, it will be a living hell because you won't know if they've gone down the river.

I lost my then 7 year old daughter once, on Monomoy Island. She was found safe about an hour later, but I NEVER would want to go through that agian, It makes me sick just thinking about it.

Tell your insane M-I-L taht this will turn them off to hiking FOREVER.

Hello Chris,

I too encourage you to forgo this adventure. I echo what GMorrison has said. I have made two trips to the bottom and back and it would definitely be too much for the little ones. Seems to me that you have sufficient enough doubt that this not be undertaken. Might I suggest some negotiation or compromise might be suitable. Say rather than a death march to the bottom and back a stay on the South Rim and enjoy some shorter more appropriate hikes and views from there.

On a lighter note Chris, Should you chose to return to Moab give me a holler as that is where I live. I will be happy to be your personal guide to some fantastic places that the ordinary tourista does not get to see.

 Joe

Joe, I will be sure and take you up on that. Thanks so much!

   Updated info I received today: Their plan is to leave me on the South Rim to stay in a hotel with the 6yr old while the women and a few friends go down with the two 8yr olds. So apparently they do understand a 6yr old is too young.

  I also emailed the rangers there today. They responded by saying it's pretty rare to see 8yr olds go all the way down and back, but it has been done. They said anyone who does it needs to be in above average physical and mental health, and that attitude plays a huge role. We'll see.

Ah, so you are the sitter for the youngest in her plan. Not much of a "family" vacation or adventure at that point. While the time spent one on one for the two of you could be wonderful, does that make up for sitting on the sidelines or put you there to watch for any questionable decisions made by your female in laws?

Au contraire, there's a wonderful bar and dining room in the El Tovar. No doubt there's a golf course- the whole freakin state is a golf course.

Well I am sure a 6 year old can have a blast learning to golf and at dinner, but at the bar...

I don't recall any golf course in Ft Huachuca or Tombstone though...

There is a course on the base. Mountain View Golf Course. It's a muni.

I guess they kept us rif raff away from there...

I played on a muni course in Hawaii that had a derelict tank in the middle of one of the fairways.

It sounds like a pretty bad idea considering the ages of the children - never mind that they can't carry anything, you will end up carrying them!

Even apart from the fact that it's too long a hike, boredom may well come into play long before they are tired....

I am a bit late here but my

Dee wants us all to join her in hiking to the bottom of the Grand Canyon.  Sound like she is going one way or another and you can tag along if you want.

She is paying for an overnight stay and meals at a ranch at the bottom This is nice of her. BUT...it sounds like it is also about her as if she wouldn't pay you wouldn't go.

One-way it's around a 10 mile hike....On a flat paved surface, a healthy adult could walk a mile in about 15 min, give or take, at an easy pace. So 10 miles = 2hrs 30 min on a flat paved surface. But you are on a trail (which will slow you down), expect frost (which will slow you down even more) and add elevation downhill and uphill (which will slow you down even more), and you have to carry a backpack...and we are still talking adults here.

Hydration is a concern...yes, it is a big one.

It's pretty much an argument of keeping my kids safe, while maintaining family peace...If MIL's priority is not the kids safety tell her to bugger out, you are the dad.

...pretty rare to see 8yr olds go all the way down and back, but it has been done.

Yeah, few 8 year olds have done it...how fast?  What was their previous hiking experience? Fitness level? Did they walk both down and up? Were they carrying anything?

Are your kids into this kind of adventure to begin with? Novelty and the adventure wears out pretty darn quick when they get tired.

Are their young bones up to it? If adults can get stress fractures (they suck big time) from hiking so can kids.

Keep all the kids up and the chicks can go down....

Cheers...

GMorrison

This is a two day hike for fit adults. It's 6 hours down ( 4,400 feet change in elevation) and easily 8 hours back

Another thing to consider. If this is an average time for a fit, experienced adult, remember that the pace will be set by the slowest of the kids. This may add an hour or two (or more) and at that time of year, you will most likely be running out of daylight by the end of each leg. I'd imagine that it's not the sort of thing you'd want to tackle, even if only in part, in the dark.

You know their grandmother wants to do this, but has anyone asked the kids if they really want to do this and explained exactly what it entails?

PS: If the adults are going to try to keep to a schedule, the kids' experience is going to be two days of "come on, hurry up/keep up". I can't imagine it being much fun for them.

Something in your post leapt out at me, something that might not catch the eye of other people: November's weather whilst hiking in a rocky canyon. THAT is a good recipe for deadly rockfalls. Up in Pennsylvania where I grew up, early winter was the most dangerous time for exploring old coal mines because the freezes that would come at night and the subsequent thawing would allow water to creep into rock fractures where it would freeze, prying the rocks apart at night. In the afternoon it would thaw, and if the rocks didn't crack off at that point--a roof fall---then the water would seep deeper into the fracture and further expand by freezing. Inexorably, roofs fall at the openings of mines where the temperature varies because of this cycle of freezing and expansion. Going into a rocky canyon in early winter is NOT a smart idea.

Furthermore, I would strongly suggest that perhaps "Dee" is seriously not in her right mind. My own fiancee is vegan and a registered dietician, and protein intake is always a problem with vegans. They have to make sure that they get enough because protein is necessary for proper brain function, among other things. Dee's drastic weight loss is VERY indicative of a genuine eating disorder--ESPECIALLY when she has inexplicably cut out carbohydrates!?!

Furthermore, I have some first-hand knowledge with a girlfriend who had an eating disorder. I can tell you that Dee's behavior--very controlling, combined with her weight loss and eating habits--puts her in a category where it is really quite likely hat she has a genuine eating disorder. She may be projecting her need to "control" outside of her OWN personal choices---but that doesn't mean that her ideas about what's appropriate for your children's safety or activities is any more realistic or harmless than her own choices that she has made for herself. You are 100% correct to be wary of her propositions at this point.

Personally, I think you already know that this idea is a TERRIBLE one, but are just looking for reasons to justify your decision. Hopefully, you've got enough of them here to put your foot down, firmly.

Lastly--texting and driving? I would HIT THE ROOF!

EDIT--b the way, Chris--as far as "maintaining family peace", sometimes you can't do that when the other personal is just plain unreasonable. You can't argue with mental illness. I say that 100% seriously, from experience. Don't take it lightly.

You guys are awesome and thanks so much for chiming in on this. Lots of great thoughts. Doog, you really hit some great points. Thanks.

    Last night my wife and I discussed my concerns. We decided the kids (at least, MY kids) will stay up on the rim with me while the women (and the other 8yr old) will go down.

    In the meantime, this has spurred us to prioritize getting the kids some hiking experience, so we'll be starting that this weekend with a short hike not far from home. Should be fun.

    Thanks again, everyone.  

  Chris

Chris

I realize you're trying to compromise and keep "peace", but I would stop and ask yourself; what happens if something happens to the women and child when you're up on the rim and they're in the canyon? Do you think your wife could carry out the child, if necessary? Furthermore, do you think that a vegan--who is most likely severely deficient in nutrition as it is due to dropping that much weight so quickly and who has cut out the "energy food (carbohydrates)--is going to have the body reserves to be able to complete such an arduous task in the first place? When your body is starving for carbs--your "energy reserves"--and it has none left to process, it starts to eat your muscle tissue. Your mother-in-law doesn't sound like she has any idea of what she's asking her own aged body to endure.

Be afraid....

Good points Doog. And if I may say again: do not let the 8 yrs old go.

As a parent of two 20-something adult kids, and as a dad who had a tendency to forget that for every two steps I took, it was 6 or more for the kids and their little legs and bodies when they were little, uh uh, no way.

We wore our kids out at Disneyworld when they were only slightly younger than yours, and Disneyworld is very flat and safe. They both pretty much ended up hating Disneyworld. You don't want that to happen with natural wonders such as the Grand Canyon, I wouldn't think.

As everyone else has already said, and you have figured out already, you don't want to do this.