Political Correctness in Modeling

modelcrazy

 

 

modelcrazy

I have been following this thread and its twists and turns from the start. TB's experience brings a question to my mind. While to some of the Allies, German or Japanese or even Italian subjects may be sensitive (not to me), is a replica of a Lancaster or B-17 touchy to a German audience or Enola Gay/Bockscar sensitive to a Japanese audience?

Steve

Don't display a B-17 at a Dresden survivor's reunion. 

GMorrison

You took an FW-190 model to a JCC?

Really?

And you are surprised about the reaction you got?

Listen, about this PC nonsence, the problem is that the PC tends to usually be C.

 

mustang1989

 

 

GMorrison

You took an FW-190 model to a JCC?

Really?

And you are surprised about the reaction you got?

Listen, about this PC nonsence, the problem is that the PC tends to usually be C.

 

 

 

 

I just read this part. Yeah that is gutsy.....

 

 

So I gave it more thought, and yes I can think of a time in my life where I was sort of drenched in an unrealistic view of the world, by my mother. As a kid, I wanted to model Spitfires, Thunderbolts, Mustangs, Corsairs etc. Every Christmas I got Sealabs. Wright Flyers, DC-7s.

I think she meant well, and was trying to focus me on non-violent things, but as a parent I never put those kinds of limitations on my own child's interests.

The former president of our local IPMS chapter (and an office older with IPMS/USA) ran a hobby shop faily close to Tamiya USA'a HQ in Aliso Viejo and a while back Mr Tamiya himself came to visit the shop due to a number of factors, including the ones that I mentioned. During the conversation between the two gentlemen,, as it was relayed to me, the question of Tamiya making a B-29 kit was raised. Mr Tamiya said that his company would never produce a kit of the B-29. Considering the relation of his homeland and the B-29 I can understand his sentiment completely.

Not PC at all in my view. Simply a position that is quite easy to understand.

More Beer!

Hello!

I'd also like to hear more about TB's adventure at the JCC. While I agree, that an outcome like this could have been expected, I really can't appreciate the thinking behind "being offended". Like I wrote before, I'm a strong supporter of the "If you don't like it, don't look" approach. Then, if I had a war-related trauma, would I want to see a model contest - that is if I knew models of military related subjects are the majority?

I'm not denying anybody their personal tragedy or the strong feelings they might have. At the same time I feel we should work for more freedom and understanding, and so we shouldn't scald other people, if they don't harm others, even if we don't like the aesthetics of what they do. I can understand tha gentleman who had a problem with TBs work, but I wouldn't call his actions "right".

Thanks for reading and have a nice day

Paweł

I heard this story and I can't blame the Holocaust survivor being offended. Have you ever attended a talk where a guest feature is a Holocaust survivor? I have. Pretty powerful stuff of the horrors they saw and went through. You can see the pain in their eyes and voices as they talk about it.

I think everyone should get an opportunity to listen to a Holocaust survivor guest speaker.

So a "if you don't like it, don't look at it" approach doesn't fly in the eyes of a Holocaust survivor - especially in a JCC.

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

So a "if you don't like it, don't look at it" approach doesn't fly in the eyes of a Holocaust survivor - especially in a JCC.

 

BTW, where and when did you hear this guest speaker?

Pawel

I'm not denying anybody their personal tragedy or the strong feelings they might have. At the same time I feel we should work for more freedom and understanding, and so we shouldn't scald other people, if they don't harm others, even if we don't like the aesthetics of what they do. I can understand tha gentleman who had a problem with TBs work, but I wouldn't call his actions "right".

Thanks for reading and have a nice day

Paweł

 

And he could have phrased things a little differently, like when he wrote that the survivor(s) had a "hissy fit". 

But let's not start a witch hunt over this...I know how easy it is (especially on forums) to start a big snowball of cyber-anger going. I'd like to continue talking about this, but let's not turn TB into Adolf Hitler while we're at it.

I guess in a global sense anyone born before 1945 is a holocaust survivor. I've met many many people who escaped from Europe at that time, but I can't recall meeting anyone who survived say Auschwitz. Pawel no doubt has, living in Poland.

Back in 2009, in her senior year in HS, my daughter was in a production of Anne Frank, playing Mrs. Van Daan.

After the Saturday night production, a local citizen came and spoke of his experiences, as a student the same age as Anne, with her in HS. He himself was part of the movement to shield Jewish kids in Christian familes, and survived. He remembered her well, in particular as "a really good volleyball player". Such a mundane but human detail, it really struck me.

GMorrison

After the Saturday night production, a local citizen came and spoke of his experiences, as a student the same age as Anne, with her in HS. He himself was part of the movement to shield Jewish kids in Christian familes, and survived. He remembered her well, in particular as "a really good volleyball player". Such a mundane but human detail, it really struck me.

 

The hackneyed phrase "political correctness" usually, as I understand it, refers to the idea of taking a position on an issue not because one has really formed an opinion on it, but because of some sort of peer pressure. I think the term dates back to the Reagan administration, when lots of left-leaning liberals got accused of choosing sides in an effort to be "politicaly correct." Frankly I'm sick of the expression.

There's a difference between "political correctness" and common courtesy - especially when dealing with historical subjects. I hate whaling; I think it was, as practiced by Americans in the nineteenth century, cruel and barbaric. But I also recognize what a key part of the American economy whaling used to be, and I recognize that an important part of American culture sprang up around it. I don't have any inclination to build a model of a whaler or a whaleboat. But I think models of whaleships and whaleboats belong in museums; every comprehensive collection of ship models ought to include an American whaler. If I ran a whaling museum and a sperm whale came to visit - well, I'm not quite sure what I'd do. I'd probably discourage him or her from taking his or her children through the galleries.

Common courtesy calls on people to be civil to each other. I heard about a case at an IPMS convention years ago to which somebody brought a highly detailed diorama of a Nazi Party rally - complete with Nazi music blasting over a small PA system. A Jewish modeler told the organizers that he found it offensive. The organizers turned off the PA system. That strikes me as common courtesy.

I've spent my professional career teaching college students about some pretty awful events. The last thing I want my students to do is pretend such events as the Battle of Gettysburg or the Holocaust didn't happen. But when a modeler (or an author, or a TV talk show host) brings up such a subject with the deliberate intent of making somebody angry, an important line has been crossed.

Example. I think everybody in the U.S. ought to know what the Confederate flags looked like. I certainly think museums ought to exhibit Confederate flags. I also knew a high school student who knew virtually nothing about the Civil War, but fastened a Confederate flag to the roof of his car and drove it back and forth in front of the school office, for no other reason than to "yank the chain" of the assistant principal (who was Black). That sort of behavior, to my mind, is contemptible - and to defend it on the grounds that the perpetrator is trying to be "politically incorrect" is worse.

Hello!

I agree with professor Tilley, that doing something with an intention to make somebody angry is just plain wrong.

At the same time I believe it's ultimately our responsibility if we get angry or not - it isn't easy, taking responsibility for that, but it can be done!

I'm living in Poland, but I can't say I've met a holocaust survivor. I probably did, but didn't have a chance to talk or listen to him or her. I have also never been to Auschwitz. A much smaller concentration camp was situated like 100 meters from where the family of my Grandfather lived - they were just everywhere... My grandfather was a slave labourer for five  long years and told me about it so many times, we even wrote a small book about it. I've also had an opportunity to talk with German veterans of WWII - one of them was drafted into the Luftwaffe at the age of 16. The other one served on the eastern front in an anti-armor SS unit.

They all had a nice and good life in comparison to the concentration camp victims, from what I've seen and read it was a horror beyond any imagination. In Polish schools they make sure that this point comes through.

But I also have another experience - in Poland, before 1989, we were under Soviet influence. The government tried to control most aspects of people's lives - and while it tried to promote model building as means to expand the skill and knowledge of the youth, building anything German or American was strongly discouraged. If you had a model of something German it could get vandalized by "unknown offenders" the minute you turned away. It was so good to have it change in 1989, but I'm still allergic when somebody tells me what to model and what not.

I believe a part of the problem here is the understanding for our hobby. If you put a swastika on a toy, it's offensive. If yo uput it on a museum quality historically accurate miniature it's something different. Sadly, most people see our models as "plastic toys".

Well, that's a bit longer than I intended it to - thanks a lot if you read this far and have a nice day

Paweł

GMorrison

I guess in a global sense anyone born before 1945 is a holocaust survivor. I've met many many people who escaped from Europe at that time, but I can't recall meeting anyone who survived say Auschwitz. Pawel no doubt has, living in Poland.

 

I would qualify that viewpoint regarding anyone alive in that era being a Holocaust survivor. Many people grew up far from the battle zones of WWII during the war without any more serious hardship than wartime rationing. My own parents for example were here in the Americas, too young for military service, and compared to those living at the same time in the war zones, had lives of peace and prosperaty.  A Hawaiian guy I knew who grew up on the islands during the war told many humurous tales of his boyhood some related to the war, some simply of life on the islands at that time. To him, fairly close to the war, it was just being a boy and life with a touch of adventurous things to see added.

I suppose. I was thinking of the whole "crime against humanity".

One thing I do know, the Jewish world is very afraid of the Shoah being lost in the fog of history, and expend a great deal of effort to keep knowledge of it alive. The very real fear is that history will indeed repeat itself.

Thats why commenting on reactions to modeling subjects of that episode are hard to be negative about, and it sure isn't "PC" that drives them.

Look we are dancing around some pretty hot flames here.

Well, historically speaking, the Jewish peoples (because really they have been of varying ethnicities, Middle Eastern, African, and European) over the centuries have endured many pogroms and other such attacks upon their very existance from the local level of disorganized mobs to those organized by the Catholic Church in the Spanish Inquisition, and most frighteningly thorough Nazi Final Solution. Not talking the political side of the issue (which are plenty), but the hypothetical of had the war in Europe turned out longer or differently, the numbers would have been even higher or more complete. I think it is a very understandable viewpoint on the part of those to keep the lessons of that history alive. 

Pawel

I believe a part of the problem here is the understanding for our hobby. If you put a swastika on a toy, it's offensive. If yo uput it on a museum quality historically accurate miniature it's something different. Sadly, most people see our models as "plastic toys".

 

VERY good point there sir!

Sort of. Wouldn't you call the JCC ahead of time and run this by them? If not, that suggests an interest in being confrontational.

Otherwise it seems to me to be ignorance of a sort, sorry TB. Which surprises me as I understand you were a refugee from German as a little kid.

I think John T. is spot on. Why is it any different than parking in front of a black church with a Confederate Battle flag flying on your van antenna? Maybe it's not and the argument is that it is "OK".

Then the problem becomes, how do the offended parties respond. Ignore it? Not fair to make that choice for them. That smells like intimidation.

Politely ask you to stop? Probably the best option, but don't call it "PC".

React violently? Our society can't survive that.

GMorrison

Politely ask you to stop? Probably the best option, but don't call it "PC".

 

 

What in my mind distinguishes being polite ("social correctness"...I just love that term!) and PC is if the media gets involved. Especially if it's something the media has used before to garner attention/ratings/money/whatever. There is of course a place for the media, but it very quickly can (and usually will) become a lot of hype. 

Moff

 

 

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

So a "if you don't like it, don't look at it" approach doesn't fly in the eyes of a Holocaust survivor - especially in a JCC.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I think his righteous indignation would have been more understandable if the model competition was somewhere other than a Jewish Community Center. Like for example, if the F.W. 190 got removed because of the complaints, and the competition was being held in a firehouse or community hall, I would understand his anger more. 

 

BTW, where and when did you hear this guest speaker?

 

Back when I was a senior in high school in 1983. We had to take a mini courses in our senior year. One of them was on the Holocaust. The school invited Helen Sterling, a well known Holocaust survivor in my area. She is still very much alive to this day. My guess she is probably about 95 or 96 years old now AND still doing speaking tours in NY.

I would like to add it's not just Jews that died in the Holocaust. You have gypsies, invalids, gays, old, weak and the sick, women, children, etc... 

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

I would like to add it's not just Jews that died in the Holocaust. You have gypsies, invalids, gays, old, weak and the sick, women, children, etc... 

 

Yes, anybody who did not fit the mold of the Master Race, either racially, idealogically, healthwise, etc. was to be exterminated as part of the Final Solution. Jews were the most numerous victims. But other groups and populations suffered the same round ups and fate.

Moff

 

 

GMorrison

Politely ask you to stop? Probably the best option, but don't call it "PC".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What in my mind distinguishes being polite ("social correctness"...I just love that term!) and PC is if the media gets involved. Especially if it's something the media has used before to garner attention/ratings/money/whatever. There is of course a place for the media, but it very quickly can (and usually will) become a lot of hype. 

 

For all the criticism of the media, it is the one thing that keeps us together. The term "politically correct" was a Maoism, used to establish the lines inside of which one had to stay, otherwise face the wrath of the state.

Otherwise all we'd have is the Peoples Daily in China or in Russia Pravda (translation: The Truth).

It needs to be removed from the modern conversation. it really is fear mongering.

Something that seems to be missing from this discussion is that the general public often considers models to be toys. I don't think it is hard to understand the idea that offensive things (swastkas, confederate flags) don't need to be on toys.

Many of those who complain about a swastika on a model of a FW190 would never make the same argument about a restored FW190 in an air museum (sure there are some who would, you can always find someone to take up an argument).

The issue is getting people to see models as miniature historical displays, portable museums rather than toys.

Aaronw

Many of those who complain about a swastika on a model of a FW190 would never make the same argument about a restored FW190 in an air museum (sure there are some who would, you can always find someone to take up an argument).

The OP question was not about making comments; that's anyones right to do, we all agree. It was about whether or not it was an act of Political Correct "ness".

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

 

Moff

 

 

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

So a "if you don't like it, don't look at it" approach doesn't fly in the eyes of a Holocaust survivor - especially in a JCC.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I think his righteous indignation would have been more understandable if the model competition was somewhere other than a Jewish Community Center. Like for example, if the F.W. 190 got removed because of the complaints, and the competition was being held in a firehouse or community hall, I would understand his anger more. 

 

BTW, where and when did you hear this guest speaker?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back when I was a senior in high school in 1983. We had to take a mini courses in our senior year. One of them was on the Holocaust. The school invited Helen Sterling, a well known Holocaust survivor in my area. She is still very much alive to this day. My guess she is probably about 95 or 96 years old now AND still doing speaking tours in NY.

 

 

I just found this out this afternoon that the local Holocaust survivor Hellen Sperling has passed away today at the age of 95.

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20151204/NEWS/151209705

Has anyone built any isis dioramas yet? or do we have to wait for 70 years to pass by? 

or build a "death crash" version of any race car driver that died in the car, im sure there is many people that do build them but wouldn't share them on the Internet... 

JTRACING

Has anyone built any isis dioramas yet? or do we have to wait for 70 years to pass by? 

What about Meng's technicals? I guess they could be Somalian or something, but even that isn't 70 years ago. 

https://www.scalehobbyist.com/manufacturers/Meng_Models/Model_Cars/dual-cab-toyota-hilux-pickup-truck-w-m82a1-equipment/MGK00000VS2/product.php?s=0&t=11&man=mgk 

https://www.scalehobbyist.com/manufacturers/Meng_Models/Model_Cars/dual-cab-toyota-hilux-pickup-truck-w-zpu1-gun/MGK00000VS1/product.php?s=0&t=11&man=mgk 

https://www.scalehobbyist.com/manufacturers/Meng_Models/Model_Cars/pick-up-w-zpu-2/MGK000VS005/product.php?s=0&t=11&man=mgk

And never mind about "The End" 

Moff

And never mind about "The End"