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Proper designations of WWII machines

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  • Member since
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  • From: Bay Area, CA
Proper designations of WWII machines
Posted by Reaper420 on Thursday, January 25, 2018 3:46 AM

So the other day I got into a heated debate with a buddy of mine over designations of a couple WWII "machines". He insisted I was wrong and I insisted I was right. First off was the BF109. He insisted it was the ME109 and that was it. I told him no, it's actual designation is the Messershmitt BF109. I went on to explain that the designation was interchangeable, depending on who was talking about it and that both were correct and often used, both ME109 (we all know ME is the abbreviation for Messershmitt) AND BF109 as well as just 109. He did not agree and insisted it was only ME109. He went on to continue and strengthen his case using the FW190 as an example. I told him Focke-Wulf was an entirely different manufacturer and their system of designation obviously differs from Messershmitt.  Am I wrong in my argument? 

The next was in reference to the King Tiger. I explained to him that it' actual designation was the Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf. B or Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Konigstiger  and that it was never really ONLY referred to as the King Tiger or Tiger II by Germany. I stated that those monikers were given it by the the allies and depending on who was talking about it, would determine the designation, i.e. King Tiger or Tiger II (mostly the US) and Tiger Royale (British). Again he insisted that it was only referrd to as the King Tiger by everyone. Again, am I wrong in my argument? 

Would like to hear your input, especially if I AM wrong. Don' want to run around sounding like a know it all idiot and not actually know anything at all!

Kick the tires and light the fires!

  • Member since
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  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:19 AM

The Bf and Me designations were both used. The aircraft was first designed by Willy while working for the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG, so early versions were simply Bf. When he set up his own company, the designation Me came into use but the Germans still used Bf on offical documents through out the war.

This may be of some interest.

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/bf-me/bf-me.htm

 

The tank was designated Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Tiger II. The Germans did not use the term Konigstiger in offical documents but at least one General made referance to it. So on that your both correct and incorrect.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Amusing Hobby 1/35th Lowe

  • Member since
    May, 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:42 AM

Hello!

First - excuse me saying that - but being a little cooler could help you some, IMO. It's also worth noting that teaching people for free isn't good for anybody. If you offer your advice to somebody who doesn't want it then it's just wasted energy.

As for the designations - there are always mistakes and the likes, so usually the official designation has many variants, that get corrupted and we end up with multiple designations many times.

As for the fighters, it's Bf 109 and Fw 190. At lerast Wikipedia says it this way, but other books also. If you want to be so correct, please note that only the first letter is capital here, and there is a space adfter the letters.

Of course there were many people on both sides of the front who called the Bf 109 a "Messerschmitt" or Me 109. When the Fw 190 first appeared over Britain the allied flyers didn't know the name of the machine either.

As for the tank, the Wikipedia (I just love it, can't help it!) lists it as Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Tiger II (Sd.Kfz. 182). Of course no normal human being would use that name in a conversation, so the inoficial German term for it was Königstiger. Then you have the allies translating this in English. So which designation is "correct"? No designation ever is used by "everybody". With the exception of when you think "everybody is me"!

So I'd say do your research, keep on learning, and don't waste your time teaching people who don't want to learn. I hope it helps you, have a nice day

PaweĊ‚

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    May, 2011
  • From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Posted by Real G on Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:23 PM

I believe Konistiger is actually a Bengal tiger in German.  But transliterated into English konig means king, thus king tiger.  It's all good no matter the name, so long as you are having fun.  Don't argue - why so serious?

https://flic.kr/p/srR4kf] [/url]Joker by N.T. Izumi, on Flickr

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:29 PM

"Referred to by everyone" is sort of subjective. I agree with both of your assertions. But in the larger context of actual participants, I've heard plenty who called every Japanese aircraft that strafed them a Zero, every tank that attacked them a Tiger, and every shell that screamed overhead an 88.

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:32 PM

GMorrison
every Japanese aircraft that strafed them a Zero, every tank that attacked them a Tiger, and every shell that screamed overhead an 88.

And every British fighter was a Spitfire.. Smile

  • Member since
    June, 2013
  • From: Bay Area, CA
Posted by Reaper420 on Thursday, January 25, 2018 11:16 PM

No I'm not serious, and it's not like him and I were about to come to blows. It's just I don't like the spread of misinformation which in turn spreads ignorance. I look at it like this, in this day and age with every kid having their face jammed into iPhones and ipads and video games and the like, we will eventually have a future where everyone thinks ALL tanks are called Tigers and all fighter planes called Zeros or Spitfires (I'm not serious but the way kids are nowadays, it sure seems plausible!). It's like when I heard another of my buddies telling a newbie atr the gun range that the AR in AR15 stands for assault rifle. I was like man, no it does not! It stands for Armalite Rifle, Armalite being the company that developed and designed it and the 15 standing for the 15th design they had produced. 

Going back to the original topic, I now see though that I too was in fact spreading misinformation, and I stand corrected with the proper knowledge from you folks!

Kick the tires and light the fires!

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by Doc Ward on Tuesday, January 30, 2018 8:29 PM

Reaper420
It's like when I heard another of my buddies telling a newbie atr the gun range that the AR in AR15 stands for assault rifle. I was like man, no it does not! It stands for Armalite Rifle, Armalite being the company that developed and designed it and the 15 standing for the 15th design they had produced. 

 

Working behind a gun counter for awhile, I heard that far too often. I've also heard it from friends (mostly my wife's friends). It got so my standard response was to politely tell them to look up "AR7," or better yet, "AR5" and tell me if either is an assault rifle. The standard response is usually something like "Uhhhhh... Welllll... Uhmmmm... Huh..."

It also seems quicker and more effective than explaining the phrase "assault rifle" dates back to the Sturmgewehr 44, etc... and seeing their eyes glaze over.

Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, January 30, 2018 9:35 PM

And how the term Sturmgewehr was created after the subterfuge of the MP-43 designation for that weapon was found out by the Fuerer... 

National Socialist Germany was funny in how titles of equipment changed for primarily political reasons. How much difference is there between a Fw-190D and a Ta-152C? Not a great deal physically. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

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  • Member since
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  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 6:25 AM

I think too of the names for planes here in the states.  There are four names or identifications I can think of.

The manufacturers designation

The AF approved designation

The AF approved name

The popular name among the troops (BUFF, Aluminum Overcast, Hun, etc.)  A problem withe the last is that the name is not unique, it can vary by location, and the same name can be used for different aircraft.

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:50 PM

Don Stauffer

I think too of the names for planes here in the states.  There are four names or identifications I can think of.

The manufacturers designation

The AF approved designation

The AF approved name

The popular name among the troops (BUFF, Aluminum Overcast, Hun, etc.)  A problem withe the last is that the name is not unique, it can vary by location, and the same name can be used for different aircraft.

 

 

Dont forget the name bestowed by foreign recipient operators. Example- Douglas Aircraft’s DC-3 upon joining the US military becomes the R4D/C-47, or Skytrain... to the aircrews it is the Gooney Bird... in British hands it becomes a Dakota.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:37 PM

Wildcat- Martlet

Consolidated PBY- Catalina (name originally made up by RAF

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by Doc Ward on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 2:03 PM

Don Stauffer

I think too of the names for planes here in the states.  There are four names or identifications I can think of.

The manufacturers designation

The AF approved designation

The AF approved name

The popular name among the troops (BUFF, Aluminum Overcast, Hun, etc.)  A problem withe the last is that the name is not unique, it can vary by location, and the same name can be used for different aircraft.

But if someone doesn't know what a Warthog is, I want nothing to do with them... Hmm

Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 2:58 PM

stikpusher
 
Don Stauffer

I think too of the names for planes here in the states.  There are four names or identifications I can think of.

The manufacturers designation

The AF approved designation

The AF approved name

The popular name among the troops (BUFF, Aluminum Overcast, Hun, etc.)  A problem withe the last is that the name is not unique, it can vary by location, and the same name can be used for different aircraft.

 

 

 

 

Dont forget the name bestowed by foreign recipient operators. Example- Douglas Aircraft’s DC-3 upon joining the US military becomes the R4D/C-47, or Skytrain... to the aircrews it is the Gooney Bird... in British hands it becomes a Dakota.

 

And the AH-64 Apache becomes the Apache AH1 in British hands.

If i am not mistaken, the whole nameing of US tanks was started by us with the Stuart.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Amusing Hobby 1/35th Lowe

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 5:07 PM

I think the PBY was the Canso in RAF hands...

 

and yes, Bish is correct, originally US tanks did not have names, only M series numbers and type in their nomenclature. The Brits started the habit of giving them names. All after civil war generals. Once the US Army got into the act, the  general namesakes were more recent.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Meridian, ID
Posted by modelcrazy on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 6:01 PM

Bish
If i am not mistaken, the whole nameing of US tanks was started by us with the Stuart.

I may be mistaken but you Brits had a large hand in naming some of our aircraft. Love the name "Mustang" BTW

You guys also came up with a lot of the cool toys of WWII. RADAR, SONAR, centrifugal flow jet engine etc.

Steve

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  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 6:26 PM

stikpusher

I think the PBY was the Canso in RAF hands...

That was the RCAF's name.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 7:15 PM

GMorrison

 

 
stikpusher

I think the PBY was the Canso in RAF hands...

 

 

That was the RCAF's name.

 

 

and the US crews called it???

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    April, 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 7:18 PM

Catalina after the Bristish named that plane. 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/fw-190-d-9-13-vs-ta-152-c.21219/

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 7:34 PM

stikpusher

 

 
GMorrison

 

 
stikpusher

I think the PBY was the Canso in RAF hands...

 

 

That was the RCAF's name.

 

 

 

 

and the US crews called it???

 

Prior to October 1941, the PBY.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, January 31, 2018 9:54 PM

The PBY/Catalina also had a nickname

something related to a popular movie character of the time...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, February 01, 2018 2:06 AM

stikpusher

I think the PBY was the Canso in RAF hands...

 

and yes, Bish is correct, originally US tanks did not have names, only M series numbers and type in their nomenclature. The Brits started the habit of giving them names. All after civil war generals. Once the US Army got into the act, the  general namesakes were more recent.

 

Stick, where did Stuart come from. Was there an American general by that name or was it named after the British Royal House.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Amusing Hobby 1/35th Lowe

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, February 01, 2018 2:09 AM

modelcrazy

 

 
Bish
If i am not mistaken, the whole nameing of US tanks was started by us with the Stuart.

 

I may be mistaken but you Brits had a large hand in naming some of our aircraft. Love the name "Mustang" BTW

You guys also came up with a lot of the cool toys of WWII. RADAR, SONAR, centrifugal flow jet engine etc.

 

I did think we had a hand in the name of the Mustang, which of course was originally designed for us. Though i do believe that un like armour, you guys were already naming your aircraft.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Amusing Hobby 1/35th Lowe

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by Doc Ward on Thursday, February 01, 2018 5:57 AM

Bish

 Stick, where did Stuart come from. Was there an American general by that name or was it named after the British Royal House.

General J.E.B. Stuart, the Confederate cavalry general.

Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, February 01, 2018 6:12 AM

Doc Ward

 

 
Bish

 Stick, where did Stuart come from. Was there an American general by that name or was it named after the British Royal House.

 

 

General J.E.B. Stuart, the Confederate cavalry general.

 

Cheers Doc.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Amusing Hobby 1/35th Lowe

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Thursday, February 01, 2018 10:01 AM

Bish

 

I did think we had a hand in the name of the Mustang, which of course was originally designed for us. Though i do believe that un like armour, you guys were already naming your aircraft.

 

 

See, and here I always thought that the Americans designed the airframe and the British just dropped that beautiful Merlin engine into it.

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by Doc Ward on Thursday, February 01, 2018 10:10 AM

Bish

 

 
Doc Ward

 

 
Bish

 Stick, where did Stuart come from. Was there an American general by that name or was it named after the British Royal House.

 

 

General J.E.B. Stuart, the Confederate cavalry general.

 

 

 

Cheers Doc.

 

Glad to be of help!

Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, February 01, 2018 10:16 AM

laskdjn

 

 
Bish

 

I did think we had a hand in the name of the Mustang, which of course was originally designed for us. Though i do believe that un like armour, you guys were already naming your aircraft.

 

 

 

 

See, and here I always thought that the Americans designed the airframe and the British just dropped that beautiful Merlin engine into it.

 

O ye, the Americans designed and built it, it was just done to meet a British request. Originally we had asked North American to build the P-40 under license. But they were not to keen in building some one elses old designed, so they designed and built the Mustang instead.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Amusing Hobby 1/35th Lowe

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Posted by laskdjn on Thursday, February 01, 2018 10:19 AM

Gotcha, guess I need to brush up on my history!

  • Member since
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  • From: Meridian, ID
Posted by modelcrazy on Thursday, February 01, 2018 10:45 AM

The P51B was good at lower altitudes with its Allison, however it was subjected to ground fire damage because of the inline engine and radiator. The Brits didn't like it because they wanted a high lever fighter and had outstanding ground attack aircraft already. They dropped the Merlin in and turned a mule into a mustang in the form of the C and D models. The only difference between the C and D by the way is the C was built in Dallas, they were identical airframes.

The original airframe was the A-36 Apache...dive bomber no less.

Steve

ON THE BENCH

1/35 Hobby Boss Fieseler Storch
1/72 Hasegawa Nell
1/48 Tamiya Swordfish
1/350 Tamiya Prince of Wales

In Que

1/700 Tamiya King George V

 

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