You're going to modify your M48 to A5 configuration. That's what the Guard had in the 80s. Working with 113s is perfectly fine. The BDUs on the Tamiya figures are good, but Guard units mostly had the older Vietnam era flak vests and steel pots, not the Kevlar vests and helmets of the PASGT those figures have. M41s were long gone from the Guard by the 80s. A pre Bradley mech or armor scout unit will have M113s and M901s. Light units had M151s for Scout vehicles before HMMWVs. 

stikpusher

You're going to modify your M48 to A5 configuration. That's what the Guard had in the 80s. Working with 113s is perfectly fine. The BDUs on the Tamiya figures are good, but Guard units mostly had the older Vietnam era flak vests and steel pots, not the Kevlar vests and helmets of the PASGT those figures have. M41s were long gone from the Guard by the 80s. A pre Bradley mech or armor scout unit will have M113s and M901s. Light units had M151s for Scout vehicles before HMMWVs. 

 

Thank you Stikpusher, how would I go about the M48a5 conversion, I know I need a 105 barrel and the cupola didnt have the .50 cal in it, what else am I missing. Didnt the guard also have sheridans in its recon ranks? or was that just the cav units from and the airborne units.Thanks again!

Also any other figure sets you would suggest looking at?

Please let us know how it goes if you build this, I love the idea. 

Gamera

Please let us know how it goes if you build this, I love the idea. 

 

Its going to take awhile to be honest, I'm at the citadel right now so building when I have free time is sometimes hard. But I'll keep y'all updated as best I can. I alos have another diorama idea for chechneya with russian equipmetn loaded up with soldiers riding, but that'll be later in th eyear if I get to it. 

Also, do you think maybe a destoryed soviet vehicles, like a btr 152 or early bmp/btr would look good, maybe a foxhole with a dead hunter killer team in it. Drawing ideas from the airborne commander in red dawn when he set up his defense after securing the town.

Tankluver

 

stikpusher

You're going to modify your M48 to A5 configuration. That's what the Guard had in the 80s. Working with 113s is perfectly fine. The BDUs on the Tamiya figures are good, but Guard units mostly had the older Vietnam era flak vests and steel pots, not the Kevlar vests and helmets of the PASGT those figures have. M41s were long gone from the Guard by the 80s. A pre Bradley mech or armor scout unit will have M113s and M901s. Light units had M151s for Scout vehicles before HMMWVs. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Stikpusher, how would I go about the M48a5 conversion, I know I need a 105 barrel and the cupola didnt have the .50 cal in it, what else am I missing. Didnt the guard also have sheridans in its recon ranks? or was that just the cav units from and the airborne units.Thanks again!

Also any other figure sets you would suggest looking at?

 

The M48A5 had an Israeli style cupola with an M60 mg in US service, not the original design cupola of the the A1 thru A3. Most like they also would have had the top loading air cleaners, octaganal pad tracks and smaller xenon search light.

I never heard of the Sheridan inGuard or Reserve service. Not to say it could not happen, but I dont's know of it. Those served in Cav units and the 82nd only. 82nd kept theirs until the early 90s while the Cav got rid of them in the late 70s. They then were all sent to NTC at Ft Irwin for use in all the vismods to simulate a Soviet Motor Rifle Regiment.

Soviet Airborne units had BMD-1s, and possibly some ASU-85s still remaining. The 85 was used in the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, but were not seen much after that. I do not recall other AFV types being organic in their TO&E in the airborne infantry units.

stikpusher

 

 

Tankluver

 

stikpusher

You're going to modify your M48 to A5 configuration. That's what the Guard had in the 80s. Working with 113s is perfectly fine. The BDUs on the Tamiya figures are good, but Guard units mostly had the older Vietnam era flak vests and steel pots, not the Kevlar vests and helmets of the PASGT those figures have. M41s were long gone from the Guard by the 80s. A pre Bradley mech or armor scout unit will have M113s and M901s. Light units had M151s for Scout vehicles before HMMWVs. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Stikpusher, how would I go about the M48a5 conversion, I know I need a 105 barrel and the cupola didnt have the .50 cal in it, what else am I missing. Didnt the guard also have sheridans in its recon ranks? or was that just the cav units from and the airborne units.Thanks again!

Also any other figure sets you would suggest looking at?

 

 

 

 

The M48A5 had an Israeli style cupola with an M60 mg in US service, not the original design cupola of the the A1 thru A3. Most like they also would have had the top loading air cleaners, octaganal pad tracks and smaller xenon search light.

I never heard of the Sheridan inGuard or Reserve service. Not to say it could not happen, but I dont's know of it. Those served in Cav units and the 82nd only. 82nd kept theirs until the early 90s while the Cav got rid of them in the late 70s. They then were all sent to NTC at Ft Irwin for use in all the vismods to simulate a Soviet Motor Rifle Regiment.

Soviet Airborne units had BMD-1s, and possibly some ASU-85s still remaining. The 85 was used in the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, but were not seen much after that. I do not recall other AFV types being organic in their TO&E in the airborne infantry units.

 

I actually found a picture of an M48a5 with an M48a3 cupola that looked pretty cool, it was on the earlier cariants that received the upgrade to a 105mm.

Yeah I went through the TO&E and saw that they had ASU-85, figure anything heavier would have to be airlifted in or sent over on transports. Would an M113a2 have been in service with the guard around the 80s as well, I know that many M113s were modernized and these versions were used up unitl OIF.

P.S. I found some M68 barrels on ebay, but the kit is for the tamiya Ti-67 tiran, its the same barrel on the M60 so would this actually work as a good fit?

Guard unit equipment depended upon their status at that time. If they were a "round out" brigade for an active duty division, their equipment would mirror that of their higher unit. The North Carolina Guard was a round out for 2nd Armored Division and had M1s, M2s, and M3s early on. Louisiana Guard had a round out Brigade for us in the 5th and had M60A1s and M113A2s like us. 4th ID and 24th ID had similar round out brigades. Lower priority non round out Guard units would have older vehicles such as the M48A5 and M113s, but I don't know which 113 version. When I joined CA Guard in '88 we had A2's and M60A3s, IIRC.

My father finished out in the CA guard I think he got out around the early 80s then joined the LASD. He was na M60 guy and said that they still had M113s as well. Hes still mad he never got an M1!

Regarding the gun barrel, the Tiran barrel (no such animal as a Ti-67, they are actually designated Tiran 4, TIran 5, etc.) will work. But you will need to add the mantlet dust cover bellows at the base. 

Yes, the CA Guard did not get M1s until right around the turn of the century. M60s all thru the 90s. They were kept at the MATES site at Camp Roberts, and at Ft Irwin. 

Perfect, I found a barrel I like and it will fit the mantel. 

I want to say my dad had to go to Fort Irwin for awhile to train on his tank during his drill weekends. Not poisitive though, he was just upset that he didnt get to be in the fight for 73 easting when it happened.

What would be the best way to depict this diorama, I was thinking a concrete road that could be part of an interstate and two M113s on each side of it with troops on top and another one with troops dismounting, possibly a foxhole or two with soviet airborne hunter killer teams waiting in them, and an ASU 95 knocked out on the road, in a type of checkpoint type stance.

I would recommend a BMD over an ASU for the checkpoint vehicle. 113s adancing staggered on each side of the road is not a bad idea, and perhaps have one of them with a M47 Dragon mount at the TC hatch and the missile expended. Doctrine is for the troops to dismount a distance away and the 113s to provide overwatch fire support while the grunts assault thru the objective.

stikpusher

I would recommend a BMD over an ASU for the checkpoint vehicle. 113s adancing staggered on each side of the road is not a bad idea, and perhaps have one of them with a M47 Dragon mount at the TC hatch and the missile expended. Doctrine is for the troops to dismount a distance away and the 113s to provide overwatch fire support while the grunts assault thru the objective.

 

Would an M48a5 at the point of the wedge, then one M113 with grunts dismounting and the tamiya M113 with grunts still on it, preparing to dismount look right?

Also, where could I get an M47 dragon missle for an M113?

Tankluver

Would an M48a5 at the point of the wedge, then one M113 with grunts dismounting and the tamiya M113 with grunts still on it, preparing to dismount look right?

Also, where could I get an M47 dragon missle for an M113?

The setup sounds good.  As to the Dragon, Academy's M113A2 kit includes the Dragon missile and mount for the M113.  It is also a much better detailed and nicer kit than the Tamiya M113 kits.  If you don't have the M113s yet, I would definitely get the Academy kits. 

HeavyArty

 

 

Tankluver

Would an M48a5 at the point of the wedge, then one M113 with grunts dismounting and the tamiya M113 with grunts still on it, preparing to dismount look right?

Also, where could I get an M47 dragon missle for an M113?

 

 

 

The setup sounds good.  As to the Dragon, Academy's M113A2 kit includes the Dragon missile and mount for the M113.  It is also a much better detailed and nicer kit than the Tamiya M113 kits.  If you don't have the M113s yet, I would definitely get the Academy kits. 

 

i have one of the M113s, unfortunately its the Tamiya one, but I got it at a good deal for only $12. I like the M113a2 from Academy and am porbably going ot pick it up in the next week or so. That one has the M47 dragon mount on it, all the more reason to get it.

Unless you have the Tamiya M113A2 Desert Version from OIF, it is too early of a version to be in the early '80s.  All the other Tamiya M113s are earlier M113A1s.  Also, the OIF M113A2 doesn't come with an interior.  Even at $12 it isn't the right version.  I would get two Academy kits.

Tankluver

 

 

stikpusher

I would recommend a BMD over an ASU for the checkpoint vehicle. 113s adancing staggered on each side of the road is not a bad idea, and perhaps have one of them with a M47 Dragon mount at the TC hatch and the missile expended. Doctrine is for the troops to dismount a distance away and the 113s to provide overwatch fire support while the grunts assault thru the objective.

 

 

 

 

Would an M48a5 at the point of the wedge, then one M113 with grunts dismounting and the tamiya M113 with grunts still on it, preparing to dismount look right?

Also, where could I get an M47 dragon missle for an M113?

 

ok, I was last in a Mech Infantry unit in 1990, so my memories are a bit hazy. Tanks  and Mech Infantry work together at the Battalion level in a Task Force, or company level in a Team, with the units being either tank heavy or infantry heavy. But they still operate as co ordinated elements at platoon level, not combined. A wedge would be tanks or APCs. Now, that being said, either element will bound past or through one another as the mission and situation dictates. In most combined arms teams and task forces that I was in, the tanks usually lead ahead of APCs. Especially in open terrain. Now I am talking about infantry tracks. The Cav scout platoon will usually operate ahead of those elements. IIRC, they also carried a smaller dismount element than the 11 man squad of a 113 APC. 

stikpusher

 

 

Tankluver

 

 

stikpusher

I would recommend a BMD over an ASU for the checkpoint vehicle. 113s adancing staggered on each side of the road is not a bad idea, and perhaps have one of them with a M47 Dragon mount at the TC hatch and the missile expended. Doctrine is for the troops to dismount a distance away and the 113s to provide overwatch fire support while the grunts assault thru the objective.

 

 

 

 

Would an M48a5 at the point of the wedge, then one M113 with grunts dismounting and the tamiya M113 with grunts still on it, preparing to dismount look right?

Also, where could I get an M47 dragon missle for an M113?

 

 

 

 

ok, I was last in a Mech Infantry unit in 1990, so my memories are a bit hazy. Tanks  and Mech Infantry work together at the Battalion level in a Task Force, or company level in a Team, with the units being either tank heavy or infantry heavy. But they still operate as co ordinated elements at platoon level, not combined. A wedge would be tanks or APCs. Now, that being said, either element will bound past or through one another as the mission and situation dictates. In most combined arms teams and task forces that I was in, the tanks usually lead ahead of APCs. Especially in open terrain. Now I am talking about infantry tracks. The Cav scout platoon will usually operate ahead of those elements. IIRC, they also carried a smaller dismount element than the 11 man squad of a 113 APC. 

 

So maybe two APC's dismounting and the M48a5 is pulling overwatch on the road, The APC's get on line with each other on each side of the road and the BMD is knocked out on the road a little bit up from them. That would look like bounding, and sense the BMD is knocked out/ recently disabeled it would be necessary for the APC's to dismount right and do BDA and make sure their isnt anyone else hanging around?

That sounds feasible. The other thing you want to consider is distance. In 1/35 you are talking a big base for this to be realistic. Vehicles are usually spaced at least 50 meters apart whether following in column or side by side on line. When grunts dismount, the tracks are usually drawn up on line, at least roughly, taking into account terrain, obstacles, etc. So in 1/35 scale you are looking at a base in the 4 foot wide range. 1 meter being roughly 40 inches in actuality and representing 35 scale meters. Increase that to 50 Meter dispersion and you see where I'm going with this...

stikpusher

That sounds feasible. The other thing you want to consider is distance. In 1/35 you are talking a big base for this to be realistic. Vehicles are usually spaced at least 50 meters apart whether following in column or side by side on line. When grunts dismount, the tracks are usually drawn up on line, at least roughly, taking into account terrain, obstacles, etc. So in 1/35 scale you are looking at a base in the 4 foot wide range. 1 meter being roughly 40 inches in actuality and representing 35 scale meters. Increase that to 50 Meter dispersion and you see where I'm going with this...

 

Yeah, Ive been thinking about the size of this base, I may have to do some down scaling and redrawing this, I could also do this as a movement to contact, but there in a column going down the highwaym and havent hit the point to where they want to spread out and get on line with each other. Or tank in front moving up to where the APC is on the side of the road, but another APC is following behind the tank on the road but getting ready to veer off the road and take up a position on its flank, maybe the M113 with infantry loaded on it, then get the academy M113a2 with the M47 dragon on it on the side of the road in a bounding position/ as a type of recon.

Have a look at some of these links for the doctrine of how things are supposed to go. These are taken from the FMs that apply and appear to be from that time

http://www.nuui.com/Sections/Military/Field_Manuals/FM71-1/711ch3af.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-7/Apph.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-7/Ch2.htm

talk abut old memories looking at these things... 

[quote user="stikpusher"]

I never heard of the Sheridan inGuard or Reserve service. Not to say it could not happen, but I dont's know of it. Those served in Cav units and the 82nd only. 82nd kept theirs until the early 90s while the Cav got rid of them in the late 70s. They then were all sent to NTC at Ft Irwin for use in all the vismods to simulate a Soviet Motor Rifle Regiment.

Stik, the local NG unit (I think it was the 116th Cav) in Idaho had Sheridans into the '80's for sure.  I almost hit one on the road during a foggy night when they were coming back from the training area 30 miles away.  The Sheridan didn't stop for a stop sign when I had the right of way.

Ya learn something new every day. Most interesting. 

Let me add something that I learned early on in doing traffic   enforcement as a cop- the lug nut rule. The vehicle with the most lug nuts wins/has the right of way. Tracked AFVs definitely have more lug nuts

stikpusher

Ya learn something new every day. Most interesting. 

Let me add something that I learned early on in doing traffic   enforcement as a cop- the lug nut rule. The vehicle with the most lug nuts wins/has the right of way. Tracked AFVs definitely have more lug nuts

 

Im guessing your either LAPD or with the sheriffs. Yeah I need to start reading up on doctrine, trying to branch armor when I commission. But I'll take a look at the FMs when im finished studying tonight, I'm just trying to look for creative ways to minimize space but in a realistic manner.

I'm Sheriff's. I still have discretion and the ability to make a decision without a field supervisor. I would not trade with LAPD for twice my pay. 

Now as to your situation, the one factor that dictates every military op, regardless of doctrine is terrain. A natural choke point will force units to constrict- within reason. So something going up such as a ridge spur that would provide cover for one 113 to dismount its' squad and a hull down position for the M48... 

I don't know if you've ever been out west but the landscape can be quite severe out this way.

Best of luck to you whichever branch you choose TL. Believe in the Army, and believe in your troops. Be the best soldier you can, no matter what your assignment. All jobs are critical to winning at one point or another.

stikpusher

I'm Sheriff's. I still have discretion and the ability to make a decision without a field supervisor. I would not trade with LAPD for twice my pay. 

Now as to your situation, the one factor that dictates every military op, regardless of doctrine is terrain. A natural choke point will force units to constrict- within reason. So something going up such as a ridge spur that would provide cover for one 113 to dismount its' squad and a hull down position for the M48... 

I don't know if you've ever been out west but the landscape can be quite severe out this way.

Best of luck to you whichever branch you choose TL. Believe in the Army, and believe in your troops. Be the best soldier you can, no matter what your assignment. All jobs are critical to winning at one point or another.

 

Im actually from out west, I'm from the Lakewood/Long beach area ani d both parents are  LA county sheriffs. I just go to the Citadel, but I'm really praying that  I branch armor, My father was an M60 tanker in the mid/late 70s. 

I'm trying to think how I can go about this, if they were coming out of a pass, then it would also cause for restriction, they could be on the road and the first M113 could be rolling in front and bounding until the M48 gets to them, or visa versa, and then the other M113 could be coming out of the pass to get on the side of the road as fast as it can and dismount.

CapnMac82

What might help would be a highway overpass. It's a break in terrain, has some top cover--but, more importantly, gives a geart reason to foreshorten the diorama. Interstate bridge clearance is 16'-4" which is 6 1/8" at 1/32, not a terrible vertical height for 1/35. Figure that the bridge beams are 36" tall, so that's 9/8", then you want about 12" for the road bed, another 3/8". Sum that 6 1/8 + 9/8 + 3/8 = 7 5/8", still easy at 1/35, enough to say put a bmp or the like atop the bridge. Jut remember that a 2 lane plus 2 shoulder bridge is 48-50' wide, about 18" to scale Just a thought.

 

That wouldnt be a bad idea, I like that, and will probably come back to that idea if I dont use it on this Dio, I also have a few others I'd like to do with this what if scenario, maybe soviet airborne dug in outside a town with RPGS and wire guided missles. Also have a plan to build a Russian convoy in chechneya with Russian troops riding ontop of their equipment in Grozni. 

But to get back  on topic, I do like the idea, A small interstate over pass and the units are making there way out from underneath it, with the M48 in lead and the M113's heading in different dirrections to dismount, or an M113 on line covering the column while the other M113 pulls to the other side and the M48a5 is coming up to get push forward while the apcs dismount and prepare to move forward.