What if, inspired by Red dawn

Finally received my first M113, its the Tamiya one but it will do, I am going to order an M68 barrel this week online, should be here in two weeks give or take.

Finally, I am awaiting for the Academy M113a2 to be back in stock or find a good deal on one on ebay. Any preference on which one to get, should I get the desert storm version or the regular M113a2 version from academy?

This is the version you want, kit #1354.  The shield to the right of the .50 cal is for the Dragon launcher.

HeavyArty

This is the version you want, kit #1354.  The shield to the right of the .50 cal is for the Dragon launcher.

 

Thank you, Now I need to find this one for a good price online or on ebay, any suggestions on where to buy it from or who would have it ?

Would the eduards photoetch set have the M47 dragon included in it, or at least give me the attachment for it to be used on an M113a2?

Here's the set I had in mind

http://www.ebay.com/itm/eduard-35493-1-35-Armor-M113A2-US-for-Academy-/111573375893?hash=item19fa4a9b95:g:ejEAAOSwk5FUtV-Y

Tankluver

Would the eduards photoetch set have the M47 dragon included in it, or at least give me the attachment for it to be used on an M113a2? 

It looks like the set only has the front shield for the M47 mount in it.  You would still need the other parts to include an M47 Dragon launcher to mount onto it.

If you can't find the Academy M113A2 kit, you could get the newer Academy M113A3 kit and not use any of the parts from the new A3 sprue.  It has all the previous sprues with the parts to build the A2 with M47 Dragon in the kit.  Just be sure to not use the parts for the A3 (sprues a & b).

HeavyArty

 

 

Tankluver

Would the eduards photoetch set have the M47 dragon included in it, or at least give me the attachment for it to be used on an M113a2? 

 

 

 

It looks like the set only has the front shield for the M47 mount in it.  You would still need the other parts to include an M47 Dragon launcher to mount onto it.

If you can't find the Academy M113A2 kit, you could get the newer Academy M113A3 kit and not use any of the parts from the new A3 sprue.  It has all the previous sprues with the parts to build the A2 with M47 Dragon in the kit.  Just be sure to not use the parts for the A3 (sprues a & b).

 

Thank you, I originally wanted this kit, and this seems to be easier to find then then the other one.

Send me a Private Message with your email address and I'll send you a .pdf of the M113A2 instructions so you can see what needs to be left off and how to build up the Dragon launcher mount.

I found a mounted crew I want to use on my M113a2, what do you guys think of these figures?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180808652461?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT 

Those figures are too modern for the early '80s since they are wearing IBA body armor that started being used in about 2002.

The Academy M113A2 and A3 kits come with a couple good crew figures (driver and TC) for the M113.

The old Tamiya US Modern Army Infantry figures (35133) are good for early '80s soldiers.

Any of the Dragon Desert Storm figures would be perfect for early to mid-80s as well. The only things that may be a bit too modern on the Dragon figures are the weapons. Most of them have M16A2s, which were not fielded until about '89.  The rest of their gear was pretty much the same as in the early '80s.

You want to look for figures wearing PASGT body armor...

"Y" Load-Bearing Equipment (LBE) suspenders, one-quart canteens, ALICE ammo pouches, first aid pouch, etc...

Below are soldiers in Operation Urgent Fury, Grenada, Oct '83 that are what you should look for.

And my favorite...since I am an artilleryman.  The King Of Battle!!

HeavyArty

Those figures are too modern for the early '80s since they are wearing IBA body armor that started being used in about 2002.

The Academy M113A2 and A3 kits come with a couple good crew figures (driver and TC) for the M113.

The old Tamiya US Modern Army Infantry figures (35133) are good for early '80s soldiers.

P.S. couldnt't I just take the bodies of say the dragon desert storm kit, and put them on the verlinden legs in the seated position, or would this be too much work?

Any of the Dragon Desert Storm figures would be perfect for early to mid-80s as well. The only things that may be a bit too modern on the Dragon figures are the weapons. Most of them have M16A2s, which were not fielded until about '89.  The rest of their gear was pretty much the same as in the early '80s.

You want to look for figures wearing PASGT body armor...

"Y" Load-Bearing Equipment (LBE) suspenders, one-quart canteens, ALICE ammo pouches, first aid pouch, etc...

Below are soldiers in Operation Urgent Fury, Grenada, Oct '83 that are what you should look for.

And my favorite...since I am an artilleryman.  The King Of Battle!!

 

 

Yeah, I noticed they werent eactly 80's figures but close enough, I like the dragon kits you showed me and I also noticed that the academy and tamiya track commander figures are pretty good. I'm still going through and trying to find a few resin figures for this dio, but only the verlinden ones have really stuck out to me, Any other early 80s figures you could think of that would be in a seated position or could look as if their ready to dismount a track.

Tankluver

...I also noticed that the academy and tamiya track commander figures are pretty good.

Be careful w/the Tamiya TC and driver figures.  On the older M113 and M113 ACAV kits they are wearing the Vietnam-era bone dome helmets.  These were replaced by the newer style CVC helmet in the '70s.  The M113A2 Desert Version kit has the correct CVC helmet, but the TC figure is wearing the newer IBA body armor that is not right for the early '80s either.

Tanklover

...Any other early 80s figures you could think of that would be in a seated position or could look as if their ready to dismount a track.

Unfortunately, not really.  Early '80s figures are not well covered.  You can easily convert some figures though.  Find any modern figure in a pose you like and swap out the torso with one of the older DML figure ones wearing PASGT body armor and use the individual equipment (canteens, ALICE ammo pouches, etc.) from the Dragon or Tamiya figures as well.  You can also use the weapons (M16A1s) out of the Tamiya set.  All of the weapons and gear from the Tamiya US Modern figures set is really nice.  The set is cheap as well.  I have bought a couple in the past just for the weapons and gear.

HeavyArty

 

 

Tankluver

...I also noticed that the academy and tamiya track commander figures are pretty good.

 

 

Be careful w/the Tamiya TC and driver figures.  On the older M113 and M113 ACAV kits they are wearing the Vietnam-era bone dome helmets.  These were replaced by the newer style CVC helmet in the '70s.  The M113A2 Desert Version kit has the correct CVC helmet, but the TC figure is wearing the newer IBA body armor that is not right for the early '80s either.

 

 

Tanklover

...Any other early 80s figures you could think of that would be in a seated position or could look as if their ready to dismount a track.

 

 

Unfortunately, not really.  Early '80s figures are not well covered.  You can easily convert some figures though.  Find any modern figure in a pose you like and swap out the torso with one of the older DML figure ones wearing PASGT body armor and use the individual equipment (canteens, ALICE ammo pouches, etc.) from the Dragon or Tamiya figures as well.  You can also use the weapons (M16A1s) out of the Tamiya set.  All of the weapons and gear from the Tamiya US Modern figures set is really nice.  The set is cheap as well.  I have bought a couple in the past just for the weapons and gear.

 

What I am thinking of doing, is taking the seated figures from the verlinden kit, switching the torso's out with Dragon kits and then adding on the propper equipment. Alos, would marine firgures from Gulf war 1 be using the same equipment as the army had in the 80s, I ask because I've heard that they get alot of hand me down gear?

Tankluver

Alos, would marine firgures from Gulf war 1 be using the same equipment as the army had in the 80s, I ask because I've heard that they get alot of hand me down gear?

Yes, Marines and Army Soldiers had pretty much the same gear in Operation Desert Storm ('90-'91).  Any of the Dragon figures or Tamiya's that I listed above could be Marines as well.

HeavyArty

 

 

Tankluver

Alos, would marine firgures from Gulf war 1 be using the same equipment as the army had in the 80s, I ask because I've heard that they get alot of hand me down gear?

 

 

Yes, Marines and Army Soldiers had pretty much the same gear in Operation Desert Storm ('90-'91).  Any of the Dragon figures or Tamiya's that I listed above could be Marines as well.

 

that just made this alot easier, thanks for the information HeavyArty!!

So ive been doing some mock ups and just sketching this out, and I have come to the conclusion that I'd rather not have an M113a2 in the diorama. Instead I think I am going to put a knocked out BMD-1 on the road and the M113 and M48a5 are going to be moving towards it.

Good idea. I think that you were putting too many vehicles into it for the size limitations of 1/35. 

stikpusher

Good idea. I think that you were putting too many vehicles into it for the size limitations of 1/35. 

 

Yes, I think three american vehicles would be too much, where as a disabled BMD allows for a vehicle to be closer to it. I think I'm going to place riders on the M48a5, possibly some modified verlinden humvee crew members, hitching a ride on a national guard tank while the M113 will be loaded with national guard infantry ready to dismount at a certain point down the road. 

P.S. thinking of picking up Mengs BMD-1, but i also have a BMD-1 im watching on ebay from the manufacture Alanger, is this kit any good?

Tankluver

P.S. thinking of picking up Mengs BMD-1, but i also have a BMD-1 im watching on ebay from the manufacture Alanger, is this kit any good?

Alanger kits are pretty rough.  They are from Eastern Europe and usually have thick plastic and not well defined details.  For a burned out vehicle, it should do fine though.

 
If you are really concerned about historical accuracy, your vehicles are still not really correct for the time period.

For the M113, are you talking about the Tamiya straight M113?  If so, it is a Vietnam-era M113 and not really right for an early '80s M113A2.  I would really get one of the Academy M113A2 or A3 kits and save the Tamiya one for a later build.

A little more info on the M48A5 as well.  These tanks were upgraded from M48A3 Mod B tanks (later versions, post 1968).  The Tamiya kit represents an early M48A3 (before the Mod B upgrades).  It will take quite a bit of work to convert it into an M48A5. 

Here are some things that will need to be updated/changed:

- Armored, top-loading air cleaners

- Armored tail lights and added armor bars on rear exhaust grills

- Front light clusters with removable two-lens headlights and new light guards (as opposed to round gaurd w/individual lights)

- Urdan coupola replaces M1 cupola

- M68 105mm barrel

- Add reinforcing "X" ribs to the fenders at the front and rear, and a couple places along them

- Later versions had different tracks,  T142 (octagonal pads) vs T97E2 (chevron pads)

Here is a pic of one to see some of the changes.

The below pic shows the rear armored lights and armored bars on the exhaust grills.  This one also has early, unarmored, top-loading air cleaners

Here is a great walk-around of one at Ft Drum to see more of the changes.  http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/thread/1240915606/M48A5+Photos+Ft+Drum+NY....

Here is a good thread on building an M48A5 too:  http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=230936&page=1

A better starting point is Dragon's M48A3 Mod B kit.  It has the headlights and tail lights already, along with the armored exhaust doors.

Another option is to get Academy's M48A5K ROK kit.  It can be built into a US M48A5 by leaving some of the South Korean (ROK) features (side skirts, smoke launchers and smoke grenade storage boxes, cross-wind sensor, right side M60MG, swap out TCs M60 for an M2 .50 cal, M60-style spot light, etc.).  It is off in the fender and track area though since Academy narrowed the tracks and sprockets by the width of one end connector to get the side skirts to fit.  It has the rest of the US M48A5 features in the kit already.

Here is a good build using the Academy kit for some inspiration.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/thread/1123801898/going+back+to+the+old+school...

Hope that helps.

Edit:  I guess some very early ones maintained the M1 cupola as well, so that may not have to be changed.  I doubt the M1 cupola would have still been seen by the early '80s though.  This one also has the early, unarmored, top-loading air cleaners.

HeavyArty

 

 

Tankluver

P.S. thinking of picking up Mengs BMD-1, but i also have a BMD-1 im watching on ebay from the manufacture Alanger, is this kit any good?

 

 

Alanger kits are pretty rough.  They are from Eastern Europe and usually have thick plastic and not well defined details.  For a burned out vehicle, it should do fine though.

 
If you are really concerned about historical accuracy, your vehicles are still not really correct for the time period.

For the M113, are you talking about the Tamiya straight M113?  If so, it is a Vietnam-era M113 and not really right for an early '80s M113A2.  I would really get one of the Academy M113A2 or A3 kits and save the Tamiya one for a later build.

A little more info on the M48A5 as well.  These tanks were upgraded from M48A3 Mod B tanks (later versions, post 1968).  The Tamiya kit represents an early M48A3 (before the Mod B upgrades).  It will take quite a bit of work to convert it into an M48A5. 

Here are some things that will need to be updated/changed:

- Armored, top-loading air cleaners

- Armored tail lights and added armor bars on rear exhaust grills

- Front light clusters with removable two-lens headlights and new light guards (as opposed to round gaurd w/individual lights)

- Urdan coupola replaces M1 cupola

- M68 105mm barrel

- Add reinforcing "X" ribs to the fenders at the front and rear, and a couple places along them

- Later versions had different tracks,  T142 (octagonal pads) vs T97E2 (chevron pads)

Here is a pic of one to see some of the changes.

The below pic shows the rear armored lights and armored bars on the exhaust grills.  This one also has early, unarmored, top-loading air cleaners

Here is a great walk-around of one at Ft Drum to see more of the changes.  http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/thread/1240915606/M48A5+Photos+Ft+Drum+NY....

Here is a good thread on building an M48A5 too:  http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=230936&page=1

A better starting point is Dragon's M48A3 Mod B kit.  It has the headlights and tail lights already, along with the armored exhaust doors.

Another option is to get Academy's M48A5K ROK kit.  It can be built into a US M48A5 by leaving some of the South Korean (ROK) features (side skirts, smoke launchers and smoke grenade storage boxes, cross-wind sensor, right side M60MG, swap out TCs M60 for an M2 .50 cal, M60-style spot light, etc.).  It is off in the fender and track area though since Academy narrowed the tracks and sprockets by the width of one end connector to get the side skirts to fit.  It has the rest of the US M48A5 features in the kit already.

Here is a good build using the Academy kit for some inspiration.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/thread/1123801898/going+back+to+the+old+school...

Hope that helps.

 

Edit:  I guess some very early ones maintained the M1 cupola as well, so that may not have to be changed.  I doubt the M1 cupola would have still been seen by the early '80s though.  This one also has the early, unarmored, top-loading air cleaners.

 

 

 

 

I saw the M48a5 with the cupola, so I'm keeping that, I'll try and upgrade the M48 as best as I can. 

For the M113 it is the vietnam version, but what I'm doing is making this a guard unit so the assumption i'm having is that this would be kind of like hand me downs for the active duty units. 

Thank you for all the information, it is alot of help. I'm considering the alanger kit, just worried itll be too rough, but then again don't want to get the meng kit and pay good money for something thatll be destoryed!

OK, I would think if they had M48A5s though, they would have also had M113A2s since they were contemporary vehicles...but that is just me. 

Here are a few corrections you can do to the Tamiya M48A3 to improve it.

First are the open motorization holes in the hull.  I fill them by taping them off from the outside and filling the inside with a thin layer of casting resin.  Once cured, remove the tape and sand smooth.  It is a quick and easy way to deal with motorization holes.

The Tamiya M48A3 sits too tall around the tracks and road wheels.  Tamiya's kit was based on a vehicle without an engine and it sits too high due to this.  To fix it, cut the tabs off the road wheel arms and lower all the arms by 3mm. Each suspension arm damper should also have about 2.5mm removed, they are too long and also make the model sit a little too high. You may also have to remove a couple track blocks on each side to take the slack out of the track.

You may also want to add a piece of 0.040 styrene between the turret haves to raise the turret up about 1mm since it is a bit squashed in the kit. Also, the turret and hull are too smooth.  I give them both a bit of cast texture. To do this, I wet sections of the plastic with liquid glue, then stippled the surface with an old paint brush(or my finger).  Another pass of the liquid glue tones it down and blends the texture to look like cast steel as opposed to smooth plastic.

You can also add the mud release holes on the sprockets.  See below, for Dragon's sprockets, but the technique is the same for Tamiya's.

Lastly, I would get rid of the aweful kit tracks.  The kit tracks have incorrectly placed guide teeth (in the middle of the track block as opposed to between them). I suggest you put a set of AFV Club's indi-link track on it.  They make it look 100% better.

If you want to do more to it, here is a really great correction article:  http://paulbudzik.com/tools-techniques/M48/m48-construction.html

And a full list of corrections that can be done to make it look better:  http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/message/1302103308/M48+tweaks-corrections

That should get you started.

HeavyArty

OK, I would think if they had M48A5s though, they would have also had M113A2s since they were contemporary vehicles...but that is just me. 

Here are a few corrections you can do to the Tamiya M48A3 to improve it.

First are the open motorization holes in the hull.  I fill them by taping them off from the outside and filling the inside with a thin layer of casting resin.  Once cured, remove the tape and sand smooth.  It is a quick and easy way to deal with motorization holes.

The Tamiya M48A3 sits too tall around the tracks and road wheels.  Tamiya's kit was based on a vehicle without an engine and it sits too high due to this.  To fix it, cut the tabs off the road wheel arms and lower all the arms by 3mm. Each suspension arm damper should also have about 2.5mm removed, they are too long and also make the model sit a little too high. You may also have to remove a couple track blocks on each side to take the slack out of the track.

You may also want to add a piece of 0.040 styrene between the turret haves to raise the turret up about 1mm since it is a bit squashed in the kit. Also, the turret and hull are too smooth.  I give them both a bit of cast texture. To do this, I wet sections of the plastic with liquid glue, then stippled the surface with an old paint brush(or my finger).  Another pass of the liquid glue tones it down and blends the texture to look like cast steel as opposed to smooth plastic.

You can also add the mud release holes on the sprockets.  See below, for Dragon's sprockets, but the technique is the same for Tamiya's.

Lastly, I would get rid of the aweful kit tracks.  The kit tracks have incorrectly placed guide teeth (in the middle of the track block as opposed to between them). I suggest you put a set of AFV Club's indi-link track on it.  They make it look 100% better.

If you want to do more to it, here is a really great correction article:  http://paulbudzik.com/tools-techniques/M48/m48-construction.html

And a full list of corrections that can be done to make it look better:  http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/message/1302103308/M48+tweaks-corrections

That should get you started.

 

 

 

Is there an AM kit to fix the grill doors? Some of these correction I can make, but I still need to get putty to fill the holes, thanks for all this inofrmation HeavyArty. As of right now I'm waiting on my barrel to come in so I can finish the main gun portion of the kit. 

.

Tankluver

Is there an AM kit to fix the grill doors? 

None that I know of.  They are easy to replicate with a couple strips of 0.040 strene though.

So I have a dumb question.

About how far apart would the tank and the APC be assuming they are driving along a road?

GMorrison

So I have a dumb question.

 

About how far apart would the tank and the APC be assuming they are driving along a road?

 

Ideally at least 50 meters seperation between vehicles. Too close together and you run the risk of damage or loss in case of a catastrophic kill, and too far apart and the elements may not be able to operate effectively together depending upon terrain, vegetation, etc.

Hmm because this is always a challenge in dioramas. That'd be 1.5 meters at scale, or with selective compression about 1 meter or more.

GMorrison

Hmm because this is always a challenge in dioramas. That'd be 1.5 meters at scale, or with selective compression about 1 meter or more.

 

Well its the ideal postioning of vehicles, but thats also U.S. army doctrine, i'm not positivie what ther cuntries doctrine would be depending on the situation, but the footage from checnya or of the Germans riding through Russia on the streets sometimes show vehicles close to each other. Other videos show the 50 or so meters, just all depends on the situation I guess. 

GMorrison

selective compression about 1 meter or more.

That's why I suggested an overpass, way back on Page One.  Give a good reason, visually, as well as tactically, to bunch up for the dio.

In looking over the figures, a thought popped into my head.  The Tamiya "Modern US Troops" are all equiped  with Mk 17 gask mas carriers (the Mk 17A1 will be identical at 1/35).  But, I don't believe I've seen any of the Mk 20 (?) CVC mask carriers.

But, that's not the question--the question is whether  NG troops would continue to carry the mask carriers (a pain in the thigh) or ditch them for the NBC "stuff" sacks introduced about that time?

CapnMac82

 

GMorrison

selective compression about 1 meter or more.

 

 

That's why I suggested an overpass, way back on Page One.  Give a good reason, visually, as well as tactically, to bunch up for the dio.

In looking over the figures, a thought popped into my head.  The Tamiya "Modern US Troops" are all equiped  with Mk 17 gask mas carriers (the Mk 17A1 will be identical at 1/35).  But, I don't believe I've seen any of the Mk 20 (?) CVC mask carriers.

But, that's not the question--the question is whether  NG troops would continue to carry the mask carriers (a pain in the thigh) or ditch them for the NBC "stuff" sacks introduced about that time?

 

Dragon's Modern US tank crew has the M20 mask carrier on one figure i the set. As well as them being with BDUs, the 80s style CVC helmet and one figure even having the CVC body armor vest.

I served in the Guard from 88 to 07. We did not see NBC stuff sacks until we were mobilized and deployed in 04. When I forst joined the Guard, most of our gear was pretty old- steel pots, M69 flak vests, M-16A1 rifles etc. New equipment came in slowly. Fist off K-pots. The PASGT vests did not show up until well after the 92 LA riots. M-16A2s around 2000 or so.