I ask What The H#!! Judges?

As a member of IPMS who routinely judges at almost every contest I attend as well as having been a head judge on many occasions I have to take a brief moment to point out that your assessment couldn't be further from accurate.

Your initial assumption is totally incorrect and this becomes the basis for why you don't understand how your aircraft are being judged during contests.

Leaving the GSB vs 123 judging argument aside I will call your attention to the IPMS Judging criteria which CLEARLY place craftsmanship above historical accuracy.  You ability to mimic or fail to mimic a historical photograph with your artistry bears little value upon the judging criteria.  Craftsmanship is key yo successful modeling for contests.  This is the reason why no photographic evidence is necessary for IPMS contests.  If you leave an improperly finished seam (even a single one) it destroys your ability to place well in the contest venue.

You must understand that contest judging does NOT begin with evaluating the best LOOKING models.  When a team of judges approaches a group of models on the table to be judged the first things looked at are those craftsmanship items.  Models failing to meet the craftsmanship evaluation simply fall by the wayside and receive no additional evaluation from then on.  The grouping is whittled down to only those models remaining that meet the craftsmanship standards.  When I evaluate a grouping, misalignment in vertical and horizontal plane, seams, blemishes to canopies (including crap left behind on the inside!). Many many many times great LOOKING models are left behind because of silvering on decals, poorly masked frames on canopies (remember that even in 1/32 scale you should see NO evidence of wavy lines along a frame.  Metal frames will be straight and true even at full scale perhaps with no more that 1/8" run out along the length.  Divide that by 32 and you fins no possibility for the wavering visible in many cockpit painting attempts.  IN 1/72 scale any such hand-painting or mis-masked blemishes are simply not possible.

I strongly recommend that at your next contest you volunteer to judge in a category for which you have no entries and learn something about the process before you rail against it.  It will improve your building immensely.  Of course you are welcome to continue building very nice LOOKING models, however CONTEST models are a very different thing indeed.

Judges....I am a retired US Marine,30 years.18 years in rotory wing,HMLA UH-1Ns and AH-1 s.I have seen weathering,salt effects.sand blasting effects on A/C.I even have pictures.1988 went to IPMS show in San Diego,had 1/48 Tamiya F4F Wildcat.Went to town on detail ,painting,weathering.

Came time for contest,other modelers were asking me how I did the painting and weathering.Thier words not mine ..."looks so real".A/C did not even place.Head judge says to me ......color scale wrong.In 1/48 the FS med blue would be a different shade.My thought was ..WTFO.

Took same model to "local" show at March AFB modelfest.Same A/C only thing I did was fix antenna that got broke.A/C got 2nd place in show !st in catagory.!st in show was 1/48 F-105D that was outstanding.Judges never been in or around real A/C.Scale color.Best Judges are fellow modelers standing next to you.

Well I cant see any specks on the windshield of your 111, so I cant say what they saw. But if it's dust trapped in Future, yes I would gig that as a judge. On aircraft I am pretty sure it is Standard Operating Procedure, for ground crew to clean the windscreen and other critical visibility areas before each sortie. Visibility in the air is a life and death matter- is that a speck of dust of an enemy fighter.

As far as the silvering goes, in my view, yes on those two Spits its excessive. Yes at the base of both wings where the crew chief and pilot stand obviously have the most foot traffic, but the areas adjacent to the ammo bays strikes me as too much. The armorers are not on the wings as often as the pilot and crew-chief. Not every flight is an armed combat flight. And maybe its just the flash in the pics, but the elevators should not be any bare metal showing- those are doped fabric, not metal. And why on the wingtips?

Yes military aircraft in wartime get faded, stained, worn, etc. But conversely their service lives are comparatively short. They are shot down or replaced by newer improved variants within a comparatively short time span.

Your best antidote for things you think may be questionable at a contest is to bring references for the kit being entered. Yes weathering is very subjective as to what is too little or too much. But having a reference photo to enter showing a similar subject in a similar state will head off those issues. Yes judges are first supposed to judge basic construction- seams, alignment, gaps, etc. But once its past that and all other things being equal, it comes down to the judges being subjective based upon their knowledge and experience. If you enter a kit in a contest, yes it is normal to expect to place or win, but sometimes the competition is just plain better. I have had that happen more than  few times. Kits I expected to do well sometimes don't place,and others that I thought would be lucky to place win 1st prize. it is what it is. Just curious, but is it not unusual to allow someone who enters a contest also to judge? It becomes a conflict of interest then and certainly smacks of ethical issues.

Regarding your load out of Sidewinders, yes it could be very unrealistic from a historical standpoint- was that version of AIM-9 operational at the time the aircraft is depicted? An AIM-9L in 1973 could not happen. Or from a service standpoint- was that version ever used by that service- After the AIM-9B and until the AIM-9L the Air Force and Navy had separate versions that each used. No Air Force Phantom is likely to be seen with an AIM-9C/D/G as those were Navy.

Spoken like a non judge if ever I heard one.  It's just like complaining about running a stop sign because you don't like the rules that govern driving arguing that you made such a fantastic drift around the corner and you'd never have been able to to it if you had stopped first.  If you going to enter a contest then learn the rules and build to the rules.  If you want to enter a great looking model that is full of defects in craftsmanship then feel free to do so just don't gripe about the results.

I was in the very same boat in 1999.  Started volunteering to judge and by 2004 I was building Best in Show models.  In both cases I was building great looking models!!  But by 2004 I was building great CONTEST models.  There is a difference and god willing there will always be a difference.

There is nothing wrong with building for fun or building for historical accuracy.  BUT is you're going to build for an IPMS contest understand that you can have the best looking model in the world but misaligned horizontal stabs or landing gear of ordinance and going to leave you out in the cold with regard to receiving 123 or GSB awards.

I was in a show once where the judges kid took 3rd and it was made from Legos. Talk about WTF! another where a judge was looking at his own spitfire

Here's the short answer--if you're that thin-skinned about not getting medals on a lousy four of your TEN planes, and aren't happy with at least one silver, you shouldn't be entering in contests. Model for yourself and don't compete.

Some guys would be just fine with ONE "bronze", or a "3rd".

Dude....seriously.....

In addition to the above, I also found an article from one of the 366th TFW Phantom drivers...he said that in order to carry the gun pod, the plane had to fly without  2 of the possible 4 Sidewinders.  So it appears that your loadout is not proper for more than one reason.  Aside from that, there is nothing realistic about all that bare metal showing on the Spitfire's wings and elevators. 

So, let me see if I get this right.  You placed, were recognized, for six models out of ten.  You brought home six pieces of hardware for your models.  It sounds to me like you're trying to possibly stack the deck.  Maybe try to sweep a category or two?  Get real, man!   You're a trophy hound!  Might as well just go to a trophy shop and buy some hardware.

Ok let me Clear a few things. 1) I was one judge of Three, in Three teams, I did not judge my models another team of three judged Them. 2) I live way away form where this show was held and since it was a GSB show I don't feel slighted by not being one of the boys.  I'm satisfied with the way and how I build models and think I have a lot to offer others as well as a lot to learn from others, that is why I pose the question. 3) I have and present  documentation of every model I build as well as a sheet detailing kit name, material, paint, scratch and Photo/resin notations, not one was looked at. I as a judge read said material of each model I did Judge. 

I got some what of an answer as to the load out and I said I could be wrong and I"ll eat that one( should have done a bit more research). I just figured as it was an OOB build (which is shown with model at show attached to about Bio with paper clip) since one of the (I don't have time to research proper name) white tipped ones disappeared as has not been seen since I used one of an extra set that came with it, My Bad.

More later, as I say I have this on three sites and I have to write to all at once and paste so I'll be in and out to respond and I'm glad we all talking.  I most likely will display only from now on, as I don't see some ever getting what I mean by all this.

James

 I now see that this thing comes off a little heavier than I really intended.  I also think that the pic I chose in hindsight was a little bit flashy so here is another.

now keep in mind with this photo the door is a bit unhinged as I hit it just before the shot and didn't notice it till after, it was repaired for the show. Also I should have taken a hit for the decal misalignment but did not it was the weathering. 

Could be worse.  At my last show, my model was overlooked and not even judged.

Then again, mine aren't as good as yours so maybe that was a blessing!

For one thing, on that Spit, IMHO you did go too far with the gun soot residue on the cannon....normally, there are soot stains on the wings with flush-mounted gun barrels.  But with cannon that stick out so far forward of the leading edge, I dont ever recall seeing such heavy staining on the wing like that.  Also, as pointed out earlier, bare metal showing through on fabric-covered surfaces isnt right either.  I just cannot believe that you came in here pitching such a big fit when you scored 6 out of 10.  judges are people, and they dont all think the same way.  If that causes this much concern for you, then perhaps you should not take models to shows. 

EDIT--look at the front of that Spit.  The spinner and prop look brand-new black, while the nose of the airframe has rather weird extensive chipped paint.  How likely is that on a real aircraft?  For one thing, prop blades and spinners do not stay spotless black for long, and this aircraft has heavy paint weathering.  For another, there is no reason why that paint on the nose would be so worn--same for the wingtips. 

If you dont like the answers you are getting, remember this--you came here asking for them.  It seems to me that you are trying to justify pitching a fit--and also that you dont like the answers you are getting.

When faced with a category full of jewels the minor flaws become the focus.

Realize a big competition is a lot of work to host and judge. Time schedules need to be adhered to so before a category becomes a stalemate its easier to sort through using a process of elimination.

For example I admire the European style of highlighting and weathering yet find it rather overdone to be realistic. I cringe seeing Panzer gray a shade of blue, much as yellow dry brushed over green.

Next time appreciate the competitors efforts and their style of Kung-fu. Every contest is unique in what is considered excellent modeling.

I had the same feelings getting nothing at a contest. Yet after posting the question here it soon came out why. The track was not touching a lower road wheel! Recalled the struggles the tracks caused and how I wanted to move on, still no excuse for a obvious mistake. The model was pried off its base and corrected as much as possible, the error was still noticeable so 'creative camouflage' was used to hide the offending track. The next contest it took gold!

Heavily weathered models may not award high as a 'clean build' at that particular event. Try entering a different contest for piece of mind. If still nothing save the heavy weathering for after the contest.

@ Doog

Couldn't agree more.

I got one silver. In Junior. Back in 2009. And I have entered a few years.

I'm still happy.

The side view of the Spit is much more flattering. But it also reveals issues about the nose weathering- the spinner and props compared to the cowling are inconsistant. Easily explained-
Spit AB123 received a new prop and spinner on Feb 30th due to damage- but that does not take away from visual impressions.

But to enter 10 kits in a contest and expect all to place gold/1st is pretty arrogant and unrealisitic. Not all kits win. Thick skin is a must. While we are usually our own worst critics, we also are our own best cheerleaders. To see our hard efforts not win or place every time is part of the game. If you cant live with that part, dont play. We have a "display only" section every month at our IPMS meetings/contests.

There's no crying in modeling...

Nice models. There's easily a 30% +/- deviation from person to person when it comes to judging so it is not totally unexpected.

Curious about the comment about trophy hound....I actually plan to enter an up coming contest with a lot of models in a lot of categories (10-12) - one model for each category except OOB ones in the aircraft, auto, sci-fi, ships and diorama areas. Would that be frowned upon? I mean I, too frown upon entering multiple models in one category, especially when taking out 1, 2, 3 (the system should've taken care of that happening).

In addition to these helpful comments (which I hope you are taking in the spirit in which they are given).  The primary issue was mentioned in a couple of the posts.  3 judges, 15 to perhaps 25 single-engine prop entries in the category.  The point is NOT to look at every model at the detail level.  The point is to eliminate models that contain OBVIOUS flaws until you are left with the four or five gems in the category.  Only then do the judges spend ANY time considering the subtle things many of you are discussing.  Weathering, accuracy of the load out, intensity of pre- or post-shading.  This is all stuff left to separate the best of the best.  They are NOT what is used on any of the models with OBVIOUS flaws.

My beef sometimes arises when head judges want to split a category that does NOT contain enough quality models.  Nothing bothers me more than being forced to give a second or third place award to a model with a crooked stab or a misaligned prop or landing gear.   Judges should not split categories just to give our more awards so everyone feels better.  Want an award??  Build a contest winning model!!

Manstein's revenge

There's no crying in modeling...

There's lots of crying in modeling.  I usually do mine during the painting stage! 

I just think it's awfully arrogant to think that 10 models in one contest will all earn hardware.  I have no problem with a couple entries in a category though.  Most of my stuff falls into one or two categories.  Unless you're in a really small contest, expecting all of your entries to place is rediculous.  Six out of ten and he's griping about the four that didn't?? 

Hopefully he'll take away something from all this though. 

stikpusher

The side view of the Spit is much more flattering. But it also reveals issues about the nose weathering- the spinner and props compared to the cowling are inconsistant. Easily explained-
Spit AB123 received a new prop and spinner on Feb 30th due to damage- but that does not take away from visual impressions.

But to enter 10 kits in a contest and expect all to place gold/1st is pretty arrogant and unrealisitic. Not all kits win. Thick skin is a must. While we are usually our own worst critics, we also are our own best cheerleaders. To see our hard efforts not win or place every time is part of the game. If you cant live with that part, dont play. We have a "display only" section every month at our IPMS meetings/contests.

Never said anything about getting gold on ALL not by a long shot, and I say most of my entrees, and I openly acknowledge there were flaws they did not mention, just the weathering was mentioned.

Let me explain the over all contest gist as to categories there was AIRCRAFT, SHIPS, ARMOR, ETC. Had I been at a regular IPMS show with 1,2,3, I would have been divided by several categories including several OOBs, not all 10 in one category but here you put all your planes together side by side, if you got tanks they go over there, and that is that. The feel of this show is to judge you against you, and as conceded as it may seem I don't think I'm any where near not getting at least bronze, when most of the reason is for weathering and not construction. Each model is judged on 1-5, 5 being the best in two stages 1) construction, 2) finish  with a couple add 1 for  impression and 1 for accuracy(documentation), and a subtract 1 for inaccuracy ie a purple P-51 without documentation. one only need get 7 total points for bronze. YOU could and some did get a medal for every kit. I understand all of what you are saying about booo hooo but it is not that, it was set up that way. The Spit in question scored two 2s and nothing for accuracy, and the only crit was the weathering, really the construction a two, when the requirement for getting a 1 is that it is glued together? Not crying just confused. I judged a guy at this show on his first attempt at a show Gaps everywhere no sanding and silvering on every decal. He didn't make bronze but and when he approached me with questions I gave him the crit on those things and told him how to avoid slivering but I never discussed his weathering attempts as the reason, but did offer "TIPS" for that as well, since he asked. 

I am happy with what I came away with I just feel that some thing so subjective shouldn't have such an effect, especially when documented. 

oh yeah as to the spinner / prop question after reviewing the photos and before the show that was corrected, as when the pic was taken it had just been put on to take photo no even glued. Now to discoloration on the elevators and top of rudder it is light sea gray  not sliver, as painted cloth will retain some color after bits chip off and being that it is painted after resined it to will chip and wear just as the metal will just NOT silver but light sea gray I can see it.

James

Hmm, interesting post. I have to agree with most, it seems BB has a huge amount of bravado invested in his kits. The results were good, I'd like to see shots of the models that won for comparisons sake. I too believe most of these are either over done, or have some flaws in the weathering approach/realism. 6 outta 10 ain't bad. I'd be pretty stoked.

I have over 680 1/700 WWII ships built and I know their are others out there that look better then mine ( and I don't care I'm still PROUD of my fleet ). That being said your planes look GREAT. Keep up the good work and don't let these box art modelers or judges get you down, your better than that and your letting them get the best of you.

Best of luck and your models look like the real thing. BE PROUD.

The obvious solution to your problem is clear...

Only build dioramas...  Most of the really anal judges stear well-clear of them, and historical accuracy is much more important... That turns most of them off...

Geof

Hmm, interesting post. I have to agree with most, it seems BB has a huge amount of bravado invested in his kits. The results were good, I'd like to see shots of the models that won for comparisons sake. I too believe most of these are either over done, or have some flaws in the weathering approach/realism. 6 outta 10 ain't bad. I'd be pretty stoked.

Here are the ones I submitted All more shots if you like but here is one of each. I don't have any other contestants and since I was not competing against them, only on my own merit. What I do have reference for on this computer I will add as well. I do my Bio work on a PC as it has all my adobe apps on it but I do have some on my laptop.

the two Spits (None) 1/48

The Stuka and engine (silver) 1/24

F-86 1/48 (Br)

P-51D (br)

I didn't find out until after I had drilled the canopy that they didn't use that antenna after a certain point but it was in my reference as pictured.

F-4C (none) 1/48

F-4J (none) 1/48

Granted it does now have a slight shadow along the top seam as it got cold the night before show and it cracked the putty but you must have a flashlight to see shadow, very faint.

He 111 H6 and H22 (br both) 1/48

Ju 88 (Br) 1/48

There you go.

In a side note I have built all of these kits since last Jan when they had there last show which I also attended and judged. I have a Very Loving Wife !!!!

James

Just took a quick look, this is what I saw..

Spitfires: Shoudn't be that much gun residue on the wings from the cannons.. Only the outboard MGs..

"G" and "A" decals out of register..

Hans von Hammer

Just took a quick look, this is what I saw..

Spitfires: Shoudn't be that much gun residue on the wings from the cannons.. Only the outboard MGs..

"G" and "A" decals out of register..

Hans thanks for the crit I enjoy your post, you have a way with words I do not possess. I'm not real good with words has something to do with a LD so they say and some times I come off as brash but that is not my intent by any means.

It was just this side the other seems ok, don't have photo, and I at that time got a little nervous about trying to cut them but now would do so in a minute, in fact most are hand cut now that I print my own most often, just had to get over the fear. All decals on Stuka are home made.

James

Personally, I like them all. Beautiful builds. Of course not having the up close and personal look at the builds there is no way for us to look for the basic construction things that the judges were looking for mentioned previously. 

But I have issues with a few of the builds. The F-4C I can name several historical issues with the markings, and now that I see them the late model Sidewinder is a huge historical gaffe, that unless you have photos of that bird as depicted I can say it falls flat in the accuracy department. Using a color profile as opposed to a photgraph for antenna configuration is not a good idea. The artists who draw or paint the profiles occasionally take artistic license liberties if they do not have reference of their own. Across the board, I must ask why do you depict fuel overfill stains as dark as gun blast soot or exhaust stains? Fuel and oil are transluscent and even when they pick up dust while on the ground from the surrounding environment it wont take on the look of soot.

stikpusher

Personally, I like them all. Beautiful builds. Of course not having the up close and personal look at the builds there is no way for us to look for the basic construction things that the judges were looking for mentioned previously. 

But I have issues with a few of the builds. The F-4C I can name several historical issues with the markings, and now that I see them the late model Sidewinder is a huge historical gaffe, that unless you have photos of that bird as depicted I can say it falls flat in the accuracy department. Using a color profile as opposed to a photgraph for antenna configuration is not a good idea. The artists who draw or paint the profiles occasionally take artistic license liberties if they do not have reference of their own. Across the board, I must ask why do you depict fuel overfill stains as dark as gun blast soot or exhaust stains? Fuel and oil are transluscent and even when they pick up dust while on the ground from the surrounding environment it wont take on the look of soot.

 

As I have stated and conceded the antenna on 51 was a goof( lesson learned there).

For the F-4 in all the photos I've looked at I see very few that have load out reference so I succumb to building as per instructions and as said before it was an OOB build and they were in the box when one of the others vanished. This plane was to depict a fictitious plane of the 4th, I'm trying to build one of each that flew for the 4th, ie: the Spit, The 86, P-51 and F-4 all from 4th, and here is the reference.

although in this photo there is no chief on this side but the 4th's shield i have seen it this way on other F-4s with the shield on other side as this has. I just used this tail no as well. The rest of the markings are OOB.

Here is the answer to the dark staining I drive a 1971 VW and have been working on them for over 30 years now, I have seen oil and gas and know they are translucent until they get every where and it does turn almost black and it use to be worse when it was REAL GAS and OIL not the stuff they sell today, heck 30 years ago when I started working on them sone oil was almost black comin' out the round metal toped can, much less 65-70 years ago. Those are german aircraft so I applied what I know to it, agree or not that is my answer to your query, and as you stated I can't show you up close and personal but they are not quite as dark in those spots as they appear in photo. 

Please enlighten me in the inaccuracies of said planes.  As I do wish them to be as correct as possible even if fictitious in nature. 

This all started as to why the only crits were for weathering alone Not accuracies and construction which I willingly accept my faults, but not the subjectivity. I'm willing to learn and will research much more diligently  from now on, thought I was doing well in that area, guess not.

James

Ok, i just did a bit of checking in my library to make sure I was remembering correct info. The 4th transitioned to F-4Ds in 1967 and flew them until 1970 when they transitioned to the F-4E. They flew the F-4E until 1990 when they transitioned to F-15Es. When they flew the F-4Ds, the tail codes were :SA, SB, and SC. At that time each squadron had  a different second letter. This was standard throughout TAC at that time. Tail codes were in white. The SJ tail codes for the whole wing came with the F-4Es in 1970. That is around the time that the Air Force changed tail codes to a wing level rather than squadron level. Black wing identifier tail codes, SJ,  did not appear until the late 1970s when the whole Air Force began to tone down their markings. The gate guard you used as a reference is shown marked in a manner that the F-4Ds would not have had when flown by the 4th. That is not uncommon for military posts. Display items are often historically suspect.

I like your 4th Fighter Group/Wing theme. I am doing that with a few different units. The 67th Fighter Squadron, that an old friend of mine's father flew F-86s with. And the 57th FIS because I like the look of those Iceland based interceptors.

As far as oil and gas goes, lets just say that I have had my fair share of exposure to the stuff, military and civilian. I wont get into a urinary contest about it, but POL products for the military have to meet certain standard- Mil Specs. It's not the cheapest stuff you're getting at the auto supply store or corner gas station. I know the Germans are just as, if not more so, very stringent on military standards for their stuff too. And yes motor oil gets pretty dirty, especially in the back of an old Bug. But fuel overfill of Aviation Fuel or Jet Fuel is subject to airflow across the wing surface that the engine of your Bug never will 200+ knots on those bombers, 300+ on the prop fighters, and the jets....

How many of the judges who judged your builds did you speak with to get feedback on your entries? Don't get me wrong, I like your builds and I really like the beat up finish you produce. But I think if you dial it back in a few areas as suggested here, your next time entering in the same contest will get you better placing results. Or maybe you can try your hand with armor builds

There have been a lot of constructive comments and suggestions here so far.

Regardless of how good you think your work is, I would want to see the other winning models before forming an opinion about whether any of your entries should have won.  I've entered models in contests that I thought were masterpieces only to come away with nothing due to the quality of the competition.  On the other hand, I once won a award at a regional IPMS contest with an "average" model that I entered on a whim.  A lot of it depends on who else shows up...

Also, using a "gate guard" aircraft as a reference isn't a particularly good idea, as they are often times inaccurate. 

Good luck to you. 

Mark