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gunpowder stains

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  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
gunpowder stains
Posted by Johnny1000 on Friday, March 30, 2018 10:28 AM

Hello

I know a lot of people show blackened gunpowder stains at the ends of gun barrel openings or cartrige vents on their models, but is that really a thing? I'm can't find a single real world example of an aircraft showing this. Does anyone have any references they might share?

Thanks

-J

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Meridian, ID
Posted by modelcrazy on Friday, March 30, 2018 10:34 AM

Steve

ON THE BENCH

1/35 Hobby Boss Fieseler Storch
1/72 Hasegawa Nell
1/48 Tamiya Swordfish

In Que

1/350 Tamiya Prince of Wales
1/700 Tamiya King George V
1/72 Academy FW-190 A

 

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Friday, March 30, 2018 11:15 AM

Thanks. That's a contemporary image of a restored bird, no?

Did those marks get on the wing from firing the guns or from a restorer's airbrush?

-J

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Meridian, ID
Posted by modelcrazy on Friday, March 30, 2018 11:29 AM

Not sure, but it looks good.

Steve

ON THE BENCH

1/35 Hobby Boss Fieseler Storch
1/72 Hasegawa Nell
1/48 Tamiya Swordfish

In Que

1/350 Tamiya Prince of Wales
1/700 Tamiya King George V
1/72 Academy FW-190 A

 

  • Member since
    March, 2003
  • From: Towson MD
Posted by gregbale on Friday, March 30, 2018 11:31 AM

You can occasionally see fairy subtle cordite streaks in photos of WW2 aircraft returning from combat---usually where gun muzzles are fully enclosed in wings or cowlings, like the 'short' outboard gun on P-47 wings, or against the red-doped patches on Spitfires---but most modelers seem to put them on as though they were full-length exhaust streaks. Ground crews routinely kept such things well in check, since such streaks were chemically corrosive as well as suggestive of inept maintenance.

All that being said...I'll still occasionally add them (in subtle fashion), more for 'art' than for accuracy. It's sort of like movie special effects: it may help 'sell' the illusion, whether it's strictly accurate or not. (That's the 'small print' on your artistic license.Wink)

Greg

 George Lewis:

"Every time you correct me on my grammar I love you a little fewer."

 

"

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, March 30, 2018 4:11 PM

 

 

  It happens...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, March 30, 2018 7:48 PM

Korea again... this time a B-26

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March, 2015
Posted by JohnnyK on Friday, March 30, 2018 8:15 PM

That's an interesting photo. The stains directly behind the guns are not very dark, but the stains under the wing are really dark. Also, look at the oil/exhaust stains at the engine cowling. Nice picture. The ground crew looks really busy. No too much free time to clean off the stains.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, March 30, 2018 9:59 PM

Yes, I noticed that the gun smoke staining from the underwing ports for brass and links are for more pronounced than those near the barrels. 

Here is another Korean War blast muzzle staining with some finger art work after a kill...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    April, 2010
Posted by Theuns on Friday, March 30, 2018 11:33 PM

Maybe its to do with the exit velocity if the gas at the muzzle being much higher than that of the cartridge exit holes where they basically just fall out and have more time to "stain"

 

Theuns

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 AM

Yes, and the spent casings will still have some gas in them as they are dropping out, as well as gasses being forced back down the barrel and out the breech...

How about this obviously very active A-10... ?

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Saturday, March 31, 2018 10:11 AM

Another stain you see frequently on big birds are oil stains, especially with big radials.  Radial engines are notorious for pumping out a lot of oil.  Also, hydraulic stains around LG and flaps.  I haven't been around that many birds actually flying in combat, but I do see the exhaust, oil and hydraulic fluid on lots of birds.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Monday, April 02, 2018 10:02 AM

Thanks guys. 

Something I think is kind of interesting from those shots is that the residue is more diffused than generally depicted. 

-J

  • Member since
    June, 2017
Posted by UnwaryPaladin on Monday, April 02, 2018 9:41 PM

I reload my ammo (the reall stuff!) and some powders burn much more "dirty" than others. That could account for some of the differences in powder stains. 

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, April 03, 2018 1:01 AM

Don Stauffer

Another stain you see frequently on big birds are oil stains, especially with big radials.  Radial engines are notorious for pumping out a lot of oil.  Also, hydraulic stains around LG and flaps.  I haven't been around that many birds actually flying in combat, but I do see the exhaust, oil and hydraulic fluid on lots of birds.

 

My friend Airman Jim was a FE on the C-124, with four R4360s.

Because like all radials it had a dry sump, there was a 27 gallon oil tank mounted to the Quick Engine Change frame.

The oil loss rate was about one gallon per hour for a newly rebuilt engine, higher as the hours added up.

There was also a larger oil tank in the hold, from which the FE could pump oil to replentish the tank on each engine. And he might have another barrel of 50 weight next to it.

  • Member since
    December, 2015
  • From: providence ,r.i.
Posted by templar1099 on Tuesday, April 03, 2018 4:47 AM

 photo 20153008213632_zpsmhlw7z42.jpg


Here is an F6F after repeated sorties, no time for maintenance. I believe the powder used with the older birds burned a lot more. 

"le plaisir delicieux et toujours nouveau d'une occupation inutile"

  • Member since
    September, 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Tuesday, April 03, 2018 4:01 PM

We've provided a demonstration again of the advice, "Check photographic resources".

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Humor/th_MonogramMafia.jpg?t=1296972087~original

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, April 04, 2018 12:20 PM

the Baron

We've provided a demonstration again of the advice, "Check photographic resources".

 

With the world at your fingertips, and more being added everyday, there is no reason no to do so. The only real trick is knowing where to look.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September, 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Wednesday, April 04, 2018 12:29 PM

Yeah, I like to look for as many as I can find, online and in my reference library.  I have a similar situation with uniform details for figures.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Humor/th_MonogramMafia.jpg?t=1296972087~original

  • Member since
    March, 2015
Posted by JohnnyK on Wednesday, April 04, 2018 1:07 PM

No

templar1099

 photo 20153008213632_zpsmhlw7z42.jpg


Here is an F6F after repeated sorties, no time for maintenance. I believe the powder used with the older birds burned a lot more. 

 

Now I am really freaked out. Yesturday I was looking on line at a company called Multi-flow. They make filter systems for septic systems. Today I clicked on the above F6F  photo and I was directed to Photobucket. Guess what happened?? Up popped an ad for Multi-flow! I do not like being spyed upon.

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, April 04, 2018 1:10 PM

That’s how it works.

  • Member since
    September, 2017
Posted by Sailing_Dutchman on Wednesday, April 04, 2018 1:22 PM

If you are using Google Chrome there is a free extention called ghostery that allows you to stop websites from spying on you.

  • Member since
    February, 2012
  • From: Parma, Ohio
Posted by lawdog114 on Thursday, April 05, 2018 11:17 PM
I stink at making them look convincing. They tend to come out crooked. .I either make them subtle or skip it whenever possible.

 "Can you fly this plane and land it?...Surely you can't be serious....I am serious, and don't call me Shirley"

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    July, 2016
  • From: NYC
Posted by Johnny1000 on Monday, April 09, 2018 7:30 PM

JohnnyK

Now I am really freaked out. Yesturday I was looking on line at a company called Multi-flow. They make filter systems for septic systems. Today I clicked on the above F6F  photo and I was directed to Photobucket. Guess what happened?? Up popped an ad for Multi-flow! I do not like being spyed upon.

It's called 'behavioral retargeting.' 

When you visit a site, they drop a cookie (a small file) for an ad network in your browser (you can turn this off, though some sites won't work right without cookies), and then when you go to another site in that network, it's sniffs for the cookie and tries to show you content related to that cookie. It's meant to give more ad impressions to people who are more likely to be interested in that message. Photobucket is just a spam hole, so it's not surprising that they do it.

You can clear your cookies, either all of them, or selectively. Search for 'delete cookies' and your browser in your favorite search engine (who is also following you around). 

Good luck!

-J

  • Member since
    March, 2015
Posted by JohnnyK on Monday, April 09, 2018 7:57 PM

Johnny1000

 

 
JohnnyK

Now I am really freaked out. Yesturday I was looking on line at a company called Multi-flow. They make filter systems for septic systems. Today I clicked on the above F6F  photo and I was directed to Photobucket. Guess what happened?? Up popped an ad for Multi-flow! I do not like being spyed upon.

 

 

It's called 'behavioral retargeting.' 

When you visit a site, they drop a cookie (a small file) for an ad network in your browser (you can turn this off, though some sites won't work right without cookies), and then when you go to another site in that network, it's sniffs for the cookie and tries to show you content related to that cookie. It's meant to give more ad impressions to people who are more likely to be interested in that message. Photobucket is just a spam hole, so it's not surprising that they do it.

You can clear your cookies, either all of them, or selectively. Search for 'delete cookies' and your browser in your favorite search engine (who is also following you around). 

Good luck!

-J

 

Thanks  a lot for the good info. I'll give that a try.

J

  • Member since
    February, 2012
Posted by Liegghio on Tuesday, April 10, 2018 12:34 AM

I never noticed any on F-4s in SEA, but they very rarely had an opportunity to fire them. To the best of my recollection all the air to air kills were with missiles.

I notice on my real guns the staining is very diffused and more of a grayish color than black. So,on my models I keep it subtle and will apply a little bit of gray weathering powder, then stream it back fairly tightly to take into account the high speed airflow. 

  • Member since
    April, 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by keavdog on Tuesday, April 10, 2018 12:55 AM

Behavioral targeting is meant to expose you to more relevant ads.  Its not a bad thing really.  No one wants to know who you are, thats a fact.  Its bad ***.  How you behave is where the money is.  Its not all evil.  If you have to be exposed to ads, would you rather they be model related or vacuum cleaner related?  Most organizations want to target your behavior. 

Thanks,

John

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, April 10, 2018 8:35 PM

Liegghio

I never noticed any on F-4s in SEA, but they very rarely had an opportunity to fire them. To the best of my recollection all the air to air kills were with missiles.

 

The F-4’s likely did not fly CAS or other missions where they got to fire the guns regularly. Nor did the F-105. Now the F-100 was tasked with CAS regularly and...

 

 

Liegghio

I notice on my real guns the staining is very diffused and more of a grayish color than black. So,on my models I keep it subtle and will apply a little bit of gray weathering powder, then stream it back fairly tightly to take into account the high speed airflow. 

 
The firearms that most civilian shooters fire are small arms... pistols up to .45 or .30 cal rifles for the most part. Aircraft guns: .50 Cals, 20 mm etc. usually have more powder behind them. Not mention rate of fire. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    October, 2017
Posted by Jay Bones on Saturday, April 14, 2018 9:40 PM

JohnnyK

...The stains directly behind the guns are not very dark, but the stains under the wing are really dark. Also, look at the oil/exhaust stains at the engine cowling...

 

 

I'd guess the ones on the jet (Saber?) are lighter since they would be in direct high speed air flow down the fuselage, and the ones under the wing are darker since that's a high pressure area.  Above the wing is a low pressure area which causes the higher pressure to push up on the wing (lift).

The cordite would be driven up against the wing's undersurface.

  • Member since
    October, 2017
Posted by Jay Bones on Saturday, April 14, 2018 9:57 PM

stikpusher

Yes, and the spent casings will still have some gas in them as they are dropping out, as well as gasses being forced back down the barrel and out the breech...

How about this obviously very active A-10... ?

 

 

Well, the GAU-8/A that airframe is built around spits out between 2100 (low setting) and 4200 (high setting) rounds of 30MM per minute.  Those are pretty heavy projectiles and need a lot of burned gasses to propel them out the barrel.

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