AVG P-40 color scheme

 finally threw in the towel and said "OK, Jon, just settle on something" when I saw some old but decent color photos- all the same photo, coincidentally- and depending on it's age and quality made it look like green on green over gray, or maybe Sky.... or green on brown over sky.... or was it gray....
jwb, go with it.......it will look great........................

Can't drag this thru the mud enough. So, you settled on the seemingly "status quo" for colors. Banging the head a bit much on this subject myself, I did essentially the same. Research article after article and come up with mostly nothing new. I know that one too well.

Addictive- I hope so!

Insane- Seen my visa bill lately

Fun- With this bunch....ALLWAYS!!

Just to drag out this discussion a bit more....

I have come to the conclusion that short of inventing a time machine and going back to an AVG airfield in late '41 or '42, the world may never truly know what the colors looked exactly like, even with the numbers of the colors.

And I've spent far too much time researching this, but it's been fun....

So the best I can conclude, after reading too many Google hits and saving literally MB's of photos to examine.... (and this is what I'll paint my P-40B with Boyington's markings):

Upper surfaces- RAF dark earth with some yellow added in for fading and RAF Dark green with a hint of OD and a hint of yellow to fade/dirty it. The dark earth I'll keep playing with until it takes on the slightest greensih hue, but still look brown.

The undersides will be something as close to Dupont light Sky gray as I can get, with a hiny of Sky Type S (the greenish color) thrown in for giggles.

Of course, that may change once I actually mix the paint and see what it looks like.

I finally threw in the towel and said "OK, Jon, just settle on something" when I saw some old but decent color photos- all the same photo, coincidentally- and depending on it's age and quality made it look like green on green over gray, or maybe Sky.... or green on brown over sky.... or was it gray....

In one photo- the aircraft in the background looked different than the one in the foregound!

So however it turns out, I'll post pics.

Isn't this hobby sometimes insanely addictive but pure fun!

Thank you very much, Mark.

Nelson

sidewinder77 wrote:

hey jwb, ive done chuck older's tiger 2 years ago, i never figured theres a debate on the real color. i just followed the color guidelines of the academy 1/48 kit. heres a couple of pics. The prop is life, one that  beat up and chiped means poor performance

Nelson Ott wrote:

Hi guys, I'm currently building the Trumpeter 1/48 P-40B that I would like to finish in the AVG scheme, more specifically using an old SuperScale Decal sheet (48-12) with markings of the 2nd PS, aircraft no. 38 flown by H. M. Geselbracht. The color scheme demarcation lines as indicated in the SuperScale sheet doesn't seem to be very accurate, so I'll paint it in the scheme recommended on Cutting Edge AVG decal sheets. Can anyone confirm to me I'm doing the right thing ? Thanks a lot Nelson

Hi Nelson.

P-40s leaving the Curtiss factory with a camo scheme were painted with some type of mask, such as wood or rubber, so they had 'hard edge' demarcation lines.  There's a profile of these lines in a 1995 Finescale Modeler issue.  I have Cutting Edge decals for AVG tomahawks, along with the Black Magic/Cutting Edge paint masks for the Monogram kit, and both look accurate in regards to the profile in the magazine.  I agree with you in going with the Cutting Edge pattern vs. the Superscale. 

And Sidewinder77:  Nice job on the build!

Mark

 

 

Brews wrote:

Type S means a smooth finish matt paint. It has no meaning with respect to colour.

type S meant 'Smooth' as in semi-gloss , not flat.

what I meant is 'sky type s grey' is actually a combination of sky grey and sky type s, but that is two different paints. there seems to be some confusion over what color it was supposed to be so they combined them together, only making it more complicated. 

However, there is a Sky Grey and Sky, which is the familiar pale green that was applied to late Battle of Britain a/c, and undersides of most RAF diurnal a/c through to (I think) early 1942, when the temperate sea scheme was substituted for temperate land scheme (or something like that). The Sky was commonly kept as a spinner colour, and for the rear fuselage band on fighter command planes.

Yes , that is Sky Type 'S'

I think that Sky Grey is a Fleet Airm Arm colour, so would not be as likely as the pale green sky (also known as duck egg blue/ duck egg green, I think).

Sky Grey was used for codes on RAF planes , not just FAA

As I painted my P-40 with Azure blue undersides, I'm keen to determine that this was correct (I'm afraid of the truth!).

according to Dana Bell's book 'Azure Blue' was specified for the P-40's sent to the desert of Africa.

it was Du pont 71-052 and it would later be ANA 609

One reason I used Azure blue was because it seemed to be the correct shade, based on a colour photograph on the cover of a book called "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Combat Aircraft of World War II", by Bill Gunston. However, looking at the cars parked in the background, the photo may date from the '50s rather than the '40s.

was that an aircraft that served in Africa? that might explain it.

thanks jwb,

im not really sure about that detail tho. i built the cockpit practically oob but ill still send em to ya as soon as i get more pics. by the way, i recall it was dark earth and dark green as indicated in the instruction sheet.

james

Type S means a smooth finish matt paint. It has no meaning with respect to colour.

However, there is a Sky Grey and Sky, which is the familiar pale green that was applied to late Battle of Britain a/c, and undersides of most RAF diurnal a/c through to (I think) early 1942, when the temperate sea scheme was substituted for temperate land scheme (or something like that). The Sky was commonly kept as a spinner colour, and for the rear fuselage band on fighter command planes.

I think that Sky Grey is a Fleet Airm Arm colour, so would not be as likely as the pale green sky (also known as duck egg blue/ duck egg green, I think).

As I painted my P-40 with Azure blue undersides, I'm keen to determine that this was correct (I'm afraid of the truth!).

One reason I used Azure blue was because it seemed to be the correct shade, based on a colour photograph on the cover of a book called "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Combat Aircraft of World War II", by Bill Gunston. However, looking at the cars parked in the background, the photo may date from the '50s rather than the '40s.

according to Dana Bell's research for his book "Aviation Color Primers No. 1 US Export Colors of WWII" the colors are : Dupont 71-009 or 71-065 "Dark Earth" Dupont 71-013 Dark Green and an unspecified light grey that is called "Sky Type S Grey". this is a very mis-leading name as there are actually two colors there, a pale grey and a pale green. this same name was also used for the P-39 and was specified as Dupont 71-021.

I will leave it up to you to decide if Dupont 71-021 light grey is the color you want to use on your model.

Hi guys,

I'm currently building the Trumpeter 1/48 P-40B that I would like to finish in the AVG scheme, more specifically using an old SuperScale Decal sheet (48-12) with markings of the 2nd PS, aircraft no. 38 flown by H. M. Geselbracht. The color scheme demarcation lines as indicated in the SuperScale sheet doesn't seem to be very accurate, so I'll paint it in the scheme recommended on Cutting Edge AVG decal sheets. Can anyone confirm to me I'm doing the right thing ?

Thanks a lot

Nelson

sidewinder77 wrote:

hey jwb, ive done chuck older's tiger 2 years ago, i never figured theres a debate on the real color. i just followed the color guidelines of the academy 1/48 kit. heres a couple of pics.

Great looking build sidewinder77! I like that a lot! The panel lines look great, the weathering and chippping are EXCELLENT.

What colors did you use?

Do you have any more pics? I'd like to see them.

Also- the kit I'm just starting, a Revell P-40B, does not have the butts of the cowl guns exposed in the cockpit. I've found some P-40B pics that look like I'll need to scratch build that detail. Does this kit model those? If so, do you have some office shots so I can eyeball the scale?

A number of years ago there was a simular debate about the P-51 Mustangs that appeared to be natural metal with dark blue upper fuselages and dark blue upper wings and tail. Hasagawa even released a 1/32 scale and 1/72nd scale kits of these aircraft with the "box art" as aforementioned, that is dark blue over natural metal. These aircraft were in fact OD over natural metal. There is something about the old color film that caused it to lose certain colors over time. The yellow faded out of the film and left the impression that the OD, which is a shade of green, was in fact blue (green less the yellow = blue).  I am not into photography so I do not know the technical reasons for this common problem with a lot of the color film from that era. I do know that there is often color distorsion with color photos of that vintage. I do have a color photograph of three AVG P-40Bs, # 68, #46, and #24 and the aircraft appear to be dark green and earth as indicated in the Curtiss Co. documents for painting of the aircraft for delivery. Given the primitive conditions that the aircraft operated in, and would have been maintained in, it would be more likely than not that the aircraft were painted with whatever was available, and mixed on site, when painting was necessary.  If you add color fade and weathering into the mix you get a variety of hues to add to the "mix". Who is to say what is right for a specific aircraft on any given date. Just build it Jon, and they will come (to see it).

hey jwb,

ive done chuck older's tiger 2 years ago, i never figured theres a debate on the real color. i just followed the color guidelines of the academy 1/48 kit. heres a couple of pics.

 

Mark Joyce wrote:

Jon, I've read 'Sharks Over China' and found it a very interesting and informative read as well.  I also highly recommend it.  Unfortunately for me, I had to pay a bit more than $1.98 for my copy (but it is worth what I paid)!  Its author, Carl Molesworth, has written three P-40 books in the 'Aircraft of the Aces' series published by Osprey, and anyone with an interest in the P-40 should consider adding these books to his or her book collection.  Each book is full of photographs and has beautifully done colour plates by Jim Laurier.  Now these books are definitely useful as a modeling reference!  Mark

Cool- thanks! I'll have to check those out.

Jon, I've read 'Sharks Over China' and found it a very interesting and informative read as well.  I also highly recommend it.  Unfortunately for me, I had to pay a bit more than $1.98 for my copy (but it is worth what I paid)!  Its author, Carl Molesworth, has written three P-40 books in the 'Aircraft of the Aces' series published by Osprey, and anyone with an interest in the P-40 should consider adding these books to his or her book collection.  Each book is full of photographs and has beautifully done colour plates by Jim Laurier.  Now these books are definitely useful as a modeling reference! 

Mark  

I'm reading a good book called "Sharks over China", and even though it's not about the AVG, but the 23rd FG that took over those reins, it does confirm the difficulty of counting kills, probables, etc.

On several occassions, eyewitness accounts talk about assuming something was a probable, then later confirming when the wreckage was spotted, someone else saw it, etc. Or talking about seeing pieces fly off an aircraft, but no smoke, so it was a "damaged".

They also point out that both US and Japanese claims versus records of losses were often not in agreement.

I can imagine that when you're twisting and turning in the sky, the last thing you're worried about is your kill count. (I haven't flown in combat, but I've been in combat- and I was not really concerned with notching my rifle.... just getting home safe to clean it. )

Whatever the claims versus the actual strewn wreckage on the ground- those AVG and 23rd pilots did a remarkable thing with very little support, supplies, and generally getting hand-me-down aircraft. Their story is so amazing to read.

If you're interested in the "Sharks over China" book, Amazon has it for $1.98. (I'm sure it's at other places too.) It's a bit dry at times- lots of dates, facts, figures- but it also has some very good first hand accounts, and a few really good pictures. It's not real useful as a modeling reference, but if you're a fan of history- it's a doggone bargain.

Hi Mark,

Mark Joyce wrote:

It's just that I've been following the AVG for a number of years, and my impression is that the debate goes beyond the claims although I could be mistaken.  It wouldn't be the first time!

I'm not sure if the victory claim numbers are the only sticking point or not. All of the historical evidence indicates that every air force from the dawn of aerial warfare has claimed kills that didn't happen. As you say, this is most often the result of  confusion during combat, and should be seen as no reflection on the honor of the pilots themselves.

In any event, when I had a chance to meet several of the AVG pilots a few years ago at an airshow, they all expressed a fair amount of skeptism about most of the books that had been written about them!

I'll have to dig out my program from that show so I can remember just who I met. It was close to 10 years ago and my memory for names just isn't that good.

As a sad aside, AVG and 23rd FG ace Charles Older passed away this past weekend.

That is sad.

Back on topic, when I met the AVG pilots, one of them told me in no uncertain terms that their planes did not have red spinners. Since then, I've seen some good color photos that confirm this (like that needed to be confirmed).

Regards,

Mark, thanks for the info regarding Mr. Older, he will be missed.

Hi Drew,

As I said, I'm not taking sides on the debate and you have some very valid points.  I apologize for bringing this up, since Jon's original question was simply about the colors of the AVG planes and I got sidetracked.   Overclaiming of victories was an all too common practice by all air forces, simply due to the 'fog of war' as opposed to a pilot's ulterior motive.  Was the AVG an exception and did its pilots actually destroy every plane they claimed?  I don't know; all I know is that I wasn't there so am in no position to judge.  I too have read Dan Ford's book and found it quite interesting.  It's just that I've been following the AVG for a number of years, and my impression is that the debate goes beyond the claims although I could be mistaken.  It wouldn't be the first time!

As a sad aside, AVG and 23rd FG ace Charles Older passed away this past weekend.  Mr. Older was also the presiding judge on the famous Charles Manson murder trial.

Regards,

Mark

Mark Joyce wrote:

Just be aware, Dan Ford is not highly thought of by the members of the AVG (to put it mildly).  Too many reasons to discuss here, but anyone interested should search the forum of the official AVG website: www.flyingtigersavg.com I'm not taking sides on the AVG vs. Dan Ford debate, just putting out the info. Mark

Mark,

That has always confused me because Ford's book is very respectful toward the AVG. But, victory claims and people's memories of war can be very emotional subjects.  What Ford did was work dilligently to cross-check facts and assertions made by AVG members and others. One extremely cool practice of Ford's was to check Japanese combat records to get the Japanese view of battles with the AVG. The result is that victory claims from both sides get often disappointing reality checks.

Bruce Gamble did the same thing in his two wonderful books on the Black Sheep Squadron and Pappy Boyington. I met and spoke with Gamble twice

The thing is, you can't have a double standard and be intellectually honest at the same time. One can't accept without question American kill numbers, and then denigrate the Japanese ones -- which must happen because they too claimed more losses than the AVG actually experienced.

Anyway, I don't think that Ford's book in any way diminishes the singular contribution of the Flying Tigers to the war. In fact, it really enhances the story by adding a layer of credibility often missing from more romantic and fawning books.

Regards,

I would recommend the Ford, Tullis, and Clements books. which does give you a good record of the camo used. The british roundels were actually not overpainted, the earth color circular blank area on the wings were there as a guide to apply the roundels, which were decals. The planes camo were painted with masks, and as stated previously, US colors 'best-matched' to British colors as these were orginally slated for the UK before being diverted to the AVG. The p-40E had green/olive over gray. Chinese markings were applied over the wings. The flying Tiger emblem were decals from Disney. The other unit markings & sharks teeth were all hand painted and thus all different. As for the Ford vs AVG, I don't think the AVG displeasure is with Ford's research regarding plane colors, but rather his claim that the offical AVG record is inflated as compared to the Japanese records of their losses and visa-versa - as the fog of war creates these uncertainties. I wont take either side on this particular debate, but merely acknowledge the heroic deeds of the AVG - as Dan Ford does also in his book.

Lufbery wrote:

Dan Ford has written what is probably the definitive work on the AVG. A lot of his research is provided on the web site above. Poke around a bit and you'll find references to colors and markings -- often right from an AVG pilot. Regards,

Just be aware, Dan Ford is not highly thought of by the members of the AVG (to put it mildly).  Too many reasons to discuss here, but anyone interested should search the forum of the official AVG website:

www.flyingtigersavg.com

I'm not taking sides on the AVG vs. Dan Ford debate, just putting out the info.

Mark 

This thread contains some great links to research on this sticky question.

Here's one more: http://www.warbirdforum.com/avg.htm

Dan Ford has written what is probably the definitive work on the AVG. A lot of his research is provided on the web site above. Poke around a bit and you'll find references to colors and markings -- often right from an AVG pilot.

Regards,

Based on all my resources, and I have several, they were painted in RAF scheme using the closest US equivalents.  The really bizarre thing is the British roundels were over painted with the brown/earth color which really looks odd, but is correct.  Then the Nationalist Chinese markings were then added.

Hiya Jon,

Two books that have a number of color photographs of AVG P-40s, along with loads of diagrams and other information, are "American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings" by Terrill Clements and "Tigers Over China: The Aircraft of the AVG" by Thomas Tullis.  I highly recommend both for anyone having an interest in the AVG, especially their aircraft.

Mark

 

rjkplasticmod wrote:

The colors used on the AVG birds has always been controversial.  Personally, I go with the research conducted by Dana Bell, who did a study of the Curtiss records.  He concluded that the paint colors used by Curtiss were U.S. Medium Green ANA612 & Dupont Brown ANA 617 for the upper disruptive camo & Aircraft Grey ANA512, FS16473 for the lower surfaces. Regards,  Rick

  Thanks Rick.... ........... 

rjkplasticmod wrote:

The colors used on the AVG birds has always been controversial.  Personally, I go with the research conducted by Dana Bell, who did a study of the Curtiss records.  He concluded that the paint colors used by Curtiss were U.S. Medium Green ANA612 & Dupont Brown ANA 617 for the upper disruptive camo & Aircraft Grey ANA512, FS16473 for the lower surfaces. Regards,  Rick

Cool- thanks. That's as good as any info I've read. If that's what Curtiss had on record, I guess that's as close to truth as you can get.

Thanks for posting that.

The colors used on the AVG birds has always been controversial.  Personally, I go with the research conducted by Dana Bell, who did a study of the Curtiss records.  He concluded that the paint colors used by Curtiss were U.S. Medium Green ANA612 & Dupont Brown ANA 617 for the upper disruptive camo & Aircraft Grey ANA512, FS16473 for the lower surfaces.

Regards,  Rick