jgeratic

Hello Svenne, my understanding of Mike's research:

Dark Tarmac was not a standard paint, more a provision to address the shortage of chromium oxide used in camouflage greens, and replaced these paints for camouflage schemes.  SCC.14 become the official 'black' camou paint in 1941.

The Micky mouse pattern continued to be applied up til August 1944 - but it seems for the most part, it was an option and not mandatory, with many vehicles just sporting the main colour.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Jack,

Thank you - the Italeri instruction leaflet states these Gun Trucks were built in Canada.
Hence my reluctant comment about the Italeri FS references.

Here is a picture I found when scroling through the web:

And here is one for Harold:


Pictures for reference purpose only.

With regards
Svenne

Svenne Duva

Hi Jack,
Hi Harold,

I am struggling here that is for sure.

Your link helped straightening out quite a few question marks Jack, thank you for that!

And I do agree Harold, that kind of schematic that Vallejo have provided there is quite useful.

But then there are all the interpretations and all the different makes.

Italeri (and I for one can not argue their research) have the Chevy presented in 3 different stencil options:

2 times FS 34084 and the one I would like to do - 3^rd British Infantry Division – Normandy 1944 in what I think is referred to as the “Mickey Mouse” camouflage.

According to the instruction this would be FS 34084 Olive Drab and FS 36118 Gunship Grey which Italeri translate in their x-ref table as XF-62 and XF-50.

That would be very different from S.C.C.2 and Grey Blue. And also from the truck depicted in brown and green.
Mr. Starmer translated S.C.C.2 to Tamiya: 5 x XF68 + 4 x XF3 + 1 x XF1. That would be brown(ish – don’t know where the yellow would brake away the final mix).

Couldn’t find Grey Blue but the text refers to S.C.C.2 and S.C.C.14 (black) if I understand correctly.

Initially I wanted to do the Chevy in S.C.C.15 OD and S.C.C.14 black.
Tamiya: 5 x XF81 + 1 x XF58 + 1 x XF71 and XF-69 Nato Black.

I guess I will have to bite the bullet and just do.

Here is my home brew of the S.C.C.15 using Tamiya as above and Tamiya XF-62. Look how dark the XF-62 is, Nato black would hardly be any contrast.

With the forehead in deep wrinkles...
Svenne

P.S.
Need to share a bit of a setback on the Triumph, the aluminum on the engine block just does not stick to the plastic – that’s me being lazy and omitting the primer…

 

With respect to your question regarding British SCC's and Mike's recommendation of Tamiya paint. Here is Mike Starmers' email address mikestarmer18@gmail.com  you might send him a concise message and see if he can clarify his recommendation.

Harold

Bish

Sorry mate, no chance of that. He is long dead as is my dad.

 

Bish, in this case if you don't mind I will pick a unit that would have been located in the Orkney Islands during the war.

Based on the fact that 40mm anti-aircraft guns were used in light LAA units I think the Regiment location will be in Lyness near Mill Bay on Hoy in the Orkney Islands.

https://hoyorkney.com/portfolio/armed-forces-units-deployed-to-hoy-during-wwii/ 

Sorry mate, no chance of that. He is long dead as is my dad.

Unless MiG recently changed their formulas, Mike Starmer did not give them a glowing review back in 2014:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/mig-british-ww-2-colours-t101165-s10.html

regards,

Jack

Bish

Harold, look forward to seeing that Bofors. I had a great uncle (my dads uncle) who serve on that gun in WW2.

 

Jon also suggested MIG acrylics, who have a whole range of SCC colours. I personally have never used MIG paint, so I can't comment on Jon's suggestion.

After considering Mike Starmers research on this issue I have decided to work backwards, and by that I mean decide what Artillery unit the Bofors gun was used in and paint the Matador accordingly. For this step in the process I would like to use Bish's Uncles' Regiment who was stationed on an island in Northern Scotland during the war.

Bish, could you find out what unit your Uncle served in so I can research what decals and colors I will need?

In Jon's posting he mentioned the Bofors 40mm anti-aircraft guns where most often towed by Bedford QLM and Morris with the Matador reserved for heavier 4.5-inch and 5.5-inch howitzers. I agree with Jon, that is what my reading indicated too. However, I have also read that Matadors were used in Scotland and all over the UK to tow and haul all types of artillery pieces, men, equipment and supplies.

I have already purchased the AFV Club British Bofors 40mm Anti-Aircraft gun and I did not find a 4.5-inch or 5.5-inch howitzer in plastic rather than resin that I liked, so I decided on the AFV Club Bofors gun instead. In case you're wondering what I have against resin, I have no issue with resin, but I have recently built models with full resin interiors and frankly I am not impressed with the quality of many resin modeling kits.

Harold

Hello Svenne, my understanding of Mike's research:

Dark Tarmac was not a standard paint, more a provision to address the shortage of chromium oxide used in camouflage greens, and replaced these paints for camouflage schemes.  SCC.14 become the official 'black' camou paint in 1941.

The Micky mouse pattern continued to be applied up til August 1944 - but it seems for the most part, it was an option and not mandatory, with many vehicles just sporting the main colour.

regards,

Jack

Hi GreySnake,

Your Sherman has come out great! 
Please remind me - you were using Miniart's indvidual links for this build, correct?

I like that particuat camoflage painting - very different from the OD one that is in my SOD pile.

Congratulations om your build:)

With regards
Svenne

Hello Harold, glad to be of some help - I'm pretty much in the same boat as you concerning accuracy.

If  your truck is for the NWE Campaign 1944-45, then you likely have two choices in schemes.  In April of '44, the British military adopted scc15 as their main vehicle and equipment colour.  It was their match for US olive drab, and it was an effort to make more uniform the appearance their equipment since a lot of it was of lend lease origin.

Anyhow, with this new paint colour, the stipulation was any equipment already in service was not to be repainted with scc15 if they were in still good condition.  It was only after a major overhaul that they usually qualify for a repaint.

regards,

Jack

jgeratic

If it's the truck photo you mean, I'd always go with Mike Starmer's research before trusting the paints used by museum staff.

Also refer to Mike's research concerning the timeline of what paints and schemes were used for the European Theater:

https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463

 

regards,

Jack

 

Your referral to Mike Starmer's research is compelling to say the least. The information provided by Vallejo and guided by Mike Starmer make it so much easier to understand than trying to interpret the plethora of standards, instructions and changes in paint colors and camouflage schemes that took place during the Second World War.

I tend to be obsessed with details especially regarding military history. I want things like paint and decals to be accurately represented in my modeling work. Thank you for taking time to provide Mike's research, it's is extremely helpful.

Harold

If it's the truck photo you mean, I'd always go with Mike Starmer's research before trusting the paints used by museum staff.

Also refer to Mike's research concerning the timeline of what paints and schemes were used for the European Theater:

https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463

regards,

Jack

Thank you Bish and Cliff. I have found some conflicting information regarding World War 2 British Army Artillery color for tactical and support vehicles. My original source was Vallejo paint set 71.614 British Colors UK/BEF/Europe 1939 - 1945. Colors researcher assisted by expert Mike Starmer.

https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/product/hobby/sets/afv-color-series/wwii-british-colors-uk-bef-europe-1939-1945-71614/

However, in the Royal British National Army Museum I find a different set of colors for Royal Army vehicle.

 https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?q=searchType%3Dsimple%26resultsDisplay%3Dlist%26simpleText%3DTruck&pos=14&total=314&page=1&acc=1989-07-69-1

Can anyone shed light on this issue? Was the color of World War 2 Royal Army Artillery vehicles brown or green? Vallejo's expert thinks they were medium brown with grey blue camouflage. The British Museum thinks they were green with brown camouflage.

Yeah, that does look good Harold, looking forward to seeing her in paint. 

Coming on nicely harold. I like the look of those tow cables, will have to check those out.

Ready for paint. The color will be a camouflage of medium brown and grey blue like picture #1 below. These are British World War II colors that Vallejo has researched for accuracy. The medium brown is like the Matador in picture #2 with the red arrow. This is the correct color for the British Army Artillery units of WWII. The camouflage pattern will be like picture #3 below. This will also be my first adventure in camouflage painting.

I received the AFV Club fuel can kit like picture #5 and rebuilt the stowage rack under the truck bed, please see photograph #4 below. I also received the Eureka LH-00 40mm braided metal wire rope like picture #7 and rebuilt the set of tow cables on the tailgate of the Matador, see photograph #6. These were two little details I wanted to upgrade before painting.

So, I am ready as soon as I have a new air compressor.

Harold

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

GreySnake

 

Harold

Greysnake: Ohhhhhh, that looks good!!! 

Kaysee: That sounds cool. 

Will do.

Loking sweet GS, like those markings.

Great work on both of those guys, really comeing on well.

Svenne, only thing i can think of is some sort of blockage, but i am sure you have cleaned it fully.

Harold, look forward to seeing that Bofors. I had a great uncle (my dads uncle) who serve on that gun in WW2. Though according to my dad he spent in the war on the islands north of Scotland, can't remember if it was the Orkney's or Shetlands, and he never saw a German aircraft.

Svenne: That looks good!

Harold is right. I don't think you can clean your airbrush enough!  

Svenne Duva

Hi Harold,
Thanks you for that additional confirmation.

In fact the gun - in modified version of course, is still in use.
Check out the Swedish Strf 90, or better known as CV90 (Combat Vehicle 90).

And thank you for that information on possible root cause suggestion to the AB failure.
In fact I did see some rather flaky residue when cleaning the AB.
I think that might be clogging the smal channels leading to the actual nozzle.

Need to stop using the same AB for both Tamiya and Vallejo as well - I think the formulas are very different and Tami turns to glue when mixed with Vallejo thinner (or the other way around, can't remember).

Here is the Triumph main engine-assy:

The main engine block came out the way I wanted but not entirely happy with the cylinder.
I wanted a more black metal finish, will redo and do right.

Anyway - 20 hours and then TGIF! Woot Woot (W.O.T.8)

Until then; Stay safe, stat sane, keep modeling!

Svenne

 

I also use Tamiya and Vallejo paint and primer, but not together. When I had the problem, I described I was using Tamiya Surface Primer which is lacquer based with Vallejo paint. Since then at Cliff's (Gamera) recommendation I use Vallejo Surface Primer (water based) with Vallejo paint and Tamiya paint. I think the lacquer-based Tamiya primer is what was stubbornly clogging my airbrush nozzle because the Vallejo airbrush cleaner and thinner is designed for water based products not lacquer.

Harold

Hi Harold,
Thanks you for that additional confirmation.

In fact the gun - in modified version of course, is still in use.
Check out the Swedish Strf 90, or better known as CV90 (Combat Vehicle 90).

And thank you for that information on possible root cause suggestion to the AB failure.
In fact I did see some rather flaky residue when cleaning the AB.
I think that might be clogging the smal channels leading to the actual nozzle.

Need to stop using the same AB for both Tamiya and Vallejo as well - I think the formulas are very different and Tami turns to glue when mixed with Vallejo thinner (or the other way around, can't remember).

Here is the Triumph main engine-assy:

The main engine block came out the way I wanted but not entirely happy with the cylinder.
I wanted a more black metal finish, will redo and do right.

Anyway - 20 hours and then TGIF! Woot Woot (W.O.T.8)

Until then; Stay safe, stat sane, keep modeling!

Svenne

...Edited
After sanity check: Having read Harolds suggestion one more time I will quite simply go for more carefull cleaning, using more adequate tools. Thanks Harold.
Stop editing...

Svenne Duva

Hello again Sergeant,

That Matador is just waiiiting for you to sort that compressor!

I have a cheap DIY style thing myself, details can be found here if you are interested (you might need to scroll down to the end)...

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/tools_techniques_and_reference_materials/f/18/t/184994.aspx

Looking forward to see that Bofors coming along as well!

Design was done by Bofors in Karlskoga, my birth place.

Short update on the Chevvy and a problem were I am reaching out for help...

The main assembly of the chassis is completed, detail level was OK'ish considering the the 55 years the kit has been around but flash was massiv and mold seams had to be cleaned up everywere.

Now to my problem, I am using Vallejo Surface Primer, in this case 73.69 4BO and usually I can spray that straight as is without cutting it with thinner.

But today I had a weird problem, the airbrush only worked when holding it very close to the object, and only with very precise manipulation of the trigger.

When I pushed back the needle to far and airflow at max I only had air blowing through.

When I released the trigger slightly, thats both air and needle, I had a few seconds of spray and then nothing again.

I thinned down the primer to milk but still no joy.

This is with an Airmax 0,3 mm at 25 PSI, the thing is equipped with a tank so I have a constant airflow.

Anyway,
Managed to get some Aluminium and Gunmetal on the Triumph enginblock as well, more to that later. 

Best Regards

 Svenne

 

 

Regarding the problem you are having with your airbrush. I am not an expert in airbrush technology, but I have encountered the problem you described. I have an Iwata RG-3L3 miniature spray gun with a 1.0mm nozzle which is an airbrush in spray gun form factor, and an Iwata Eclipse HP-CS gravity feed dual action airbrush with a .35mm nozzle. The air compressor I have is a large pancake style construction model designed for use with nail guns. It is noisy, heavy, and hard to control at the 25-psi range. That's why I want to replace it before I start painting.

When I had the problem, you described I eventual found that it was a combination of the dual action trigger mechanism sticking and microscopic paint residue inside the nozzle. The Iwata instruction manual said to clean the airbrush thoroughly and apply a drop of Iwata oil to the trigger mechanism and the area of the needle that is in the nozzle. It also said to use a 30X magnifying glass to inspect the inside of the nozzle.

What was happening is a microscopic amount of paint residue was partially blocking the flow of paint even though I had good airflow. The trigger sticking only confused the issue, so I was looking in the wrong place for a solution. As I began to paint the blockage would cause fresh paint to slow down through the nozzle until all I was getting is air. When I cleaned the needle and nozzle, I removed the new paint, but not the old residue. Now I use a tiny bristle brush designed to clean between your teeth to scrub out the inside of the nozzle.

I have not had a problem since I started inspecting the inside of the nozzle and applying a drop of oil to the needle and the trigger mechanism every time I clean the airbrush.

Harold

Good morning Bish, Svenne and Cliff. Of course, it is not morning where you are, but good morning to you anyway Mates and thank you. I added the last little details to the cab this morning in preparation for painting. The assembly of this model went pretty much according to the instructions, but I had a problem with the fuel can stowage rack under the truck bed and I also lost the clutch pedal, one minute it was in my tweezers and the next it was flying accross the room.

I also had another problem I would like to explain in more detail, so if anyone else decides to build this model they can be forewarned. There was an early production version of the Matador that AFV Club came out with in 2014, #AF35236. According to Scalemates' database the later production version I built, #AF35239 was released in 2015 with new parts. However, part #I-49 and I-50 which is used to anchor the back of the cab to the frame and control the height of the cab was not correct in my opinion for the new version. 

I do not know why because I have never built the earlier version, but I can tell you that I had to remove 5/64" (approx. 2mm) of the part to get the cab to sit down properly. If you look at the front of the cab in my previous posting of the Matador without the canopy you will see a white styrene spacer at the front bumper. That represents how much modification I had to make to part #I-49 and I-50. The photographs below show the cab now sitting on the frame the way it should be according to all the pictures I have seen of the Matador.

A Mate asked me why I like the AEC Matador? I like old lorries in general because they have a special look and sound that is uniquely British, kind of like canal boats. I have never driven a Matador, but in videos I have watched people say they are beautiful to drive. I think it is because the driver is sitting right over the front axle and the steering is like a modern transit bus. I worked in the mass transit industry for six years as an electromachanical contractor and had an opportunity to test drive city buses and over-the-road coaches. What can say, I like big wheels.

Harold

Svenne & Otto: That looks good! And that's cool about being from the same town where the Bofors was invented! The guy who invented peanut butter, Dr. George Washington Carver, is from my hometown- somehow it's not as cool though!  

Good luck with the airbrush, I swear mine gets more cursing from me than pretty much anything I own. I swear it's like spend hours cleaning it to get a half-hour or so of work out of it. 

Harold: Looks good there too! Good luck finding a new compressor tank. I've heard good stuff about the small 'pancake' style compressors. I've got a hand-me down large one with a tank and haven't used one myself though.