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Sd Kfz 251/21 Ausf D Alemanha1943 1:35

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  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Sd Kfz 251/21 Ausf D Alemanha1943 1:35
Posted by alexander47 on Sunday, January 5, 2014 12:07 PM

Interior photo of the armored and its commander

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Sunday, January 5, 2014 8:27 PM

Very nice. This is one of my favorite variants of the 251 family. Looking good! Beer

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by T26E4 on Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:17 PM

Thanks for posting your picture Alexander.  I noticed that your halftrack interior is a different color than the exterior and the drilling gun.  FYI: All portions of the interior were painted the same shade as the exterior -- dunkelgelb.  Also the 2cm Drilling 251/21 configuration probably was a late 1944-45 variant, not 1943.  Hope this helps

Roy Chow 

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  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Monday, January 6, 2014 9:08 AM

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by T26E4 on Monday, January 6, 2014 11:44 AM

Can you repost?  Your link only goes to a gif image.  Did you mean this?

http://www.wehrmacht-history.com/heer/sd.kfz.251/sd.kfz.251-21-mittlere-schuetzenpanzerwagen-drilling-mg-151s-ausf-d.htm

I looked up the 251/21.  It began in August 1944 according to Chamberlain and Ellis

Roy Chow 

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  • Member since
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  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Monday, January 6, 2014 12:15 PM

The chassis remained largely unchanged during development. In the Ausf B accounted for the side slits at the rear structure. The Ausf C was redesigned in mid-1940, taking account of operational experience. The front bumper fell off, the Bugbleche were reshaped and designed the new engine room ventilation. With the Ausf D, both the production as well as simplifying the fight experience was taken into account in _1943 again. In particular, the tail were simpler and more spacious, increases the storage boxes and improves the shape of the armor. From the Ausf D, most copies were made ​​with 10,602._

The annual production started slowly and remained until 1941 produced more than 1000 SPW per year. 1942 1190 SPW could be made​​, while there were 1943 4250 and 1944 7800 piece. A total of 15,252 vehicles were of all types and variants built

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Monday, January 6, 2014 12:16 PM

     The chassis remained largely unchanged during development. In the Ausf B accounted for the side slits at the rear structure. The Ausf C was redesigned in mid-1940, taking account of operational experience. The front bumper fell off, the Bugbleche were reshaped and designed the new engine room ventilation. With the Ausf D, both the production as well as simplifying the fight experience was taken into account in 1943 again. In particular, the tail were simpler and more spacious, increases the storage boxes and improves the shape of the armor. From the Ausf D, most copies were made ​​with 10,602.

The annual production started slowly and remained until 1941 produced more than 1000 SPW per year. 1942 1190 SPW could be made​​, while there were 1943 4250 and 1944 7800 piece. A total of 15,252 vehicles were of all types and variants built

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by T26E4 on Monday, January 6, 2014 12:33 PM

OK: but the 2cm Drilling variant, the SdKfz 251/21 was produced in August 1944.  You say it's an SdKfz 251/21, German 1943.  I'm saying the 251/21 did not exist in 1943.  It's your model -- title it what you want.

And you still want to make sure the interior is the same paint as the exterior.  Straighten out the antenna.  German antennae were hollow rods -- not a flexible whip antenna like the US/UK antennae.  Your MG42 is mounted incorrectly -- the swing mount attached to the rear area of the MG barrel housing, not the front.  The cross decals have very bad silvering too.  Good luck w/your project.

Roy Chow 

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  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Monday, January 6, 2014 3:18 PM

To summarize: In your opinion is the process is all wrong, since the year of existence, painting through the antenna to montangem in general!

So I have the greatest praser to meet the gentleman who owns the grounds, passing a declaration of ignorance to a mere mortal with a remarkable level of knowledge purists.

But you know the owner, I want to ride kits and the colors I pick at my leisure.

Their criticisms are definitely directed at extremely high modelers.

A.Alexandre

  • Member since
    March 2013
  • From: Puebla, Mexico
Posted by garzonh on Monday, January 6, 2014 3:28 PM

Very nice, clean cut build.

Maybe I will be able to build one without weathering I always get carried away...

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, January 6, 2014 3:32 PM

Alexandre, here we have one of the major dilemma's in modelling. Some people are very interested in historical accuracy. They will do what ever they can to get a model as accurate as possible. And to do this, they often rely on the advice of others who may know more about the particular subject. The problem is, those who offer that advice are often ridiculed as rivet counters.

At the other end of the scale, some simply like to build and are not bothered at how accurate it is. On occasion, this people will be ridiculed by those that believe that every kit should be 100% historically accurate.

The problem is, for those who are happy to offer any advice in a helpful manner don't know what reception they will receive.

My own view is this. I strive to be as accurate as possible, and I will welcome any comments, advice or suggestion's. However, if you want to build a 251, paint it pink and put it in the Somme in 1916, then its your plastic, do what you like.

That being said, Roy is 100% correct. The 251/21, and its the /21 that's the important bit, did not enter service until the latter half of 1944.

The inside and out would indeed have been painted the same colour, but of course weathering would have effected the outside more than the inside. And I recall reading one account where a museum stripped a 251 and found something like 9 different shades of DY.

How to want to use al of this is entirely upto you. I hope you will take it in the fashion it is given, with the intent of being helpful and not patronising or arrogant.

aside from that, nice looking build. I am a massive 251 fan and never get enough of them. Which kit is this one.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    March 2013
  • From: Puebla, Mexico
Posted by garzonh on Monday, January 6, 2014 3:47 PM

Not to add more salt to the wound....but...

NOTHING can be built 100% historically correct. That would mean that the model, would have to have every single scratch, component, color, exactly as a vehicle used in the war theater.

Every model built since the world started, try to represent a real one and there is always an "artist" freedom, so not even the 1st place World Champion of scale modeling author can create a 100% historically accurate vehicle.

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Monday, January 6, 2014 4:21 PM

Okay, but 100% historically reproduced to scale 1:35, still not seen any, even Roy, have not seen anything from anyone to do this in practice. 100% historical in my opinion this is only a theoretical utopian, that is in the minds of those who want to believe.

(I'm here just to be here)

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, January 6, 2014 4:35 PM

Alex, I completely agree, and I am sure Roy would as well. We can only strive to do our best. But there's a difference between being as accurate as you can, barring one to many rivets or a certain colour not being in exactly the right place, and placing a vehicle in a time when it did not exist.

Roy is simply trying to help.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by T26E4 on Monday, January 6, 2014 4:37 PM

alexander: I made a minor suggestion to you and shared some knowledge about painting procedures of later war German vehicles.  Then you get offended -- like I was attacking you.  Like I said earlier, it's your model.  Do with it what you want.  

FSM is pretty good for constructive and helpful feedback.  From the 1983 movie "Airplane" Don't want no help?  Don't get no help.

Roy Chow 

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http://www.amps-armor.org

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Monday, January 6, 2014 4:37 PM

For the attention of purists

important to know

The engine is extra kit, built entirely by me with several pieces adapted

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 10:58 AM

I be offended? not really, just expressed my objective in modeling, all models built for me has something personal, extra kit. The date 1943 came from a reading of a statement from a person who saw fnais Hanover in 1943 a prototype? drilling strolling near the Hanomag factory.

The start of series production that is pointed to August 1944?

Footnote: The Roy simply want to help? then you must realize that only accept "help" those who visit or who walks into kindergarten.

A.Alexandre

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by T26E4 on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 3:06 PM

"then you must realize that only accept "help" those who visit or who walks into kindergarten."

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Perhaps you're calling me foolish or stupid for helping visitors to this site or little children.  I guess you're saying that you don't need help.  That's fine.  

Roy Chow 

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http://www.amps-armor.org

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: Denver, Colorado
Posted by waynec on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 3:45 PM

nice clean build. roy is right about the machine gun mount and the interior color. i did not know about the german antenna but i use wire for all mine so they don't bend, may lean sometimes but not bend.

my modeling tends toward the artistic ( i won't paint the wood on tools and tend to leave the metal parts unpainted as well just to add some color).  camo patterns may be freehand but representative, panzer colors will vary.  MMA, tamiya and polyscale have pz dark yellow, green, and red brown and all are slightly different and weathering will change them too. i have seen pics of pz gray and NATO camo vehicles so covered in dust they look sand.

having said that there are still basic guidelines that should be followed: panzer interior and exterior colors on open top vehilces are the same. 1942 vehicles are never dark yellow. us vehicles were not green. exceptions supported by photographs are valid.

sometimes words in a forum as in email, cannot convey the emotions behind them. when you "enter the garden" as you have by posting on the forum, it is assumed by everyone here you are looking for constructive criticism. i post a lot and  most of my builds are decent, a few are so so but, becausee of folks like roy, my builds get better and push me to try new things. without the suggestion, which initially blew up, by another person i would have not tried oil washes and filters. now i just finished a weathered truck with ONLY washes and it turned out quite nicely.

just my verbose self sticking my nose in.

Никто не Забыт    (No one is Forgotten)
Ничто не Забыто  (Nothing is Forgotten)

 

  • Member since
    January 2014
Posted by enodaed on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 3:51 PM

While most  of us like to share our work with fellow modelers who can appreciate them, we all ultimately build for our own enjoyment. To count or not to count (rivets) is completely up to the individual. Personally, I would rather see a well built and finished model that's maybe not wholly accurate than the other way around. Having said that, if you choose to put your work out there and welcome comments and critiques, then you need a tough enough skin to not let any such comments bother you. Take it good faith that a fellow modeler is offering friendly advice, not criticizing your choices. Just my two cents....

I think this is a nice, well done build. I would recommend adding at least a pin wash to make some of that nice detail pop but again, just my two cents....Keep up the good work and please keep sharing.

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Thursday, January 9, 2014 12:30 PM

As you have realized the translation from Portuguese to English is "google".

Be fool or child are two attitudes that we can not even want to get out of them!

When you need help here I'll be knocking on the door, Thanks but no need now.

A.Alexandre

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • From: Loures Portugal
Posted by alexander47 on Thursday, January 9, 2014 12:46 PM

Ok there are a lot of people to agree with Roy?!

Does Roy have the same reason?

What is the reasoning in saying that Roy is right? Is it because the forum has several lawyers

(A STUBBORN never alone)

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, January 9, 2014 12:47 PM

Depends on which bit your talking about. The colour of the date of the /21.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Cat Central, NC
Posted by Bronto on Thursday, January 9, 2014 4:35 PM

alexander47

What is the reasoning in saying that Roy is right? Is it because the forum has several lawyers

(A STUBBORN never alone)

Historical FACT is the reason Roy is right.  I think you are being very defensive to someone EXTREMELY knowledgeable and who is trying to help you.  I understand that English is not your native language and some meaning is getting lost in translation here, but listen to what Roy and the others are saying about the history and colors of the SdKfz 251/21.  They are correct.

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, January 10, 2014 9:19 PM

Private message sent, Alexander.

  • Member since
    March 2013
  • From: Puebla, Mexico
Posted by garzonh on Friday, January 10, 2014 9:39 PM

We need a blocking or flag button in the forums my friend doog.

  • Member since
    May 2005
Posted by pyrman64 on Saturday, January 11, 2014 5:50 AM

garzonh
We need a blocking or flag button in the forums my friend doog.

And who should we block/flag?  

  • T26E4....who felt the need to comment when none was asked for? Huh?
  • Or...on Alexander47 who defended himself from a self-appointed experten? Whistling
  • Or...the doog who decided to "pile on"? Surprise
  • Or...how `bout garzonh who suggested blocking/flagging someone? Hmm

Geez people......chillax....this is a freaking hobby......if you don't like what some one else built, that's fine....it's your opinion.......take your granny's advice "it you got nothing nice to say, don't say anything!" Zip it!

Greg H

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell." Gen. Wm T. Sherman (11 April 1880, Columbus, Ohio)

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Saturday, January 11, 2014 6:24 AM

pyrman64

garzonh
We need a blocking or flag button in the forums my friend doog.

And who should we block/flag?  

  • T26E4....who felt the need to comment when none was asked for? Huh?
  • Or...on Alexander47 who defended himself from a self-appointed experten? Whistling
  • Or...the doog who decided to "pile on"? Surprise
  • Or...how `bout garzonh who suggested blocking/flagging someone? Hmm

Geez people......chillax....this is a freaking hobby......if you don't like what some one else built, that's fine....it's your opinion.......take your granny's advice "it you got nothing nice to say, don't say anything!" Zip it!

In which case why post pics of your work. Some people are interested in historical accuracy, others are not. And that's fine. But we don't know who is who until they say.

I recall one modeller posting a pic of an early war Me 109 with a Kubelwagen next to it painted in DY. Some one pointed out that DY wasn't in use at the start of the war; The builder could have simply said thank you and he would remember that for next time. But instead he went and built another Kubel and painted in Grey, and he was much appreciative of it.

I am at the stage where I don't comment on peoples builds for fear of being slatted as a rivet counter, unless I know that the person wants those sorts of comments.

And I would rather people comment on my builds both good and bad, whether it be on the build or the accuracy.

We seem to have people at two extremes here. Those who think a build should be 100% accurate no matter what and those who slate anyone for bringing up errors.

But I think most of us, me included, are in the middle. We want to be accurate as possible within reason. And for that we often need help and advice.

We all know about another modeller who reacts to comments on his builds, and many of us now don't post on his work.

Maybe we should all put disclaimers at the end of our build posts.

They can be either.

Keep your stupid opinions to yourself.

Or

All comments welcome and appreciated.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    April 2013
Posted by KnightTemplar5150 on Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:04 AM
Perhaps we should bear in mind that we lose some very important elements of human interaction when we communicate over the internet. When we speak face to face, we have the tone of voice, body language, and other nonverbal cues to give us clues to figure out someone's disposition and the message they are trying to convey. It becomes all the more important when we do not share a common language. And, perhaps, we are a little more humble in how we give and receive advice or criticism when we meet in person. Please remember that we are here to share common interests and passions; there is all the more reason to put forth a little more effort to be courteous to one another because we do not enjoy the luxury of being able to share this hobby together in person.
  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, January 11, 2014 9:26 AM

pyrman64

garzonh
We need a blocking or flag button in the forums my friend doog.

And who should we block/flag?  

  • T26E4....who felt the need to comment when none was asked for? Huh?
  • Or...on Alexander47 who defended himself from a self-appointed experten? Whistling
  • Or...the doog who decided to "pile on"? Surprise
  • Or...how `bout garzonh who suggested blocking/flagging someone? Hmm

Geez people......chillax....this is a freaking hobby......if you don't like what some one else built, that's fine....it's your opinion.......take your granny's advice "it you got nothing nice to say, don't say anything!" Zip it!

You're right, Greg---I should have directed my comments to Alexander in a Private Message. It doesn't help the forum to have even more rancor in the public view, and I am duly chastened. I shall edit my comment and send it to Alexander in a private message.I am not sorry for what I said, only that I did so in the public forum and thus added to the senseless rancor on display here..And just for the record, no--I DON'T think anyone needs to be "blocked" or "flagged" over this unfortunate exchange--but perhaps your highlighted advice will be recognized by the originator of this thread in the first place? Smile

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