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MBT70--SCUTTLED!

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  • Member since
    January 2007
MBT70--SCUTTLED!
Posted by the doog on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 9:23 AM

Hey all,

Back to the bench, and making progress on the "Black Label" MBT70 kit. I first saw this tank in the Aberdeen "sheds" where they had some un-displayed vehicles in 1983, when I took a tour of the big warehouses with Bill Atwater, director of the museum, It made a huge impression on me, a neophyte armor modeler at the time; of course, I saw an American version, while this is the German  version. Still...it was kinda like seeing the Holy Grail at the time, when the Abrams was still in its earliest configurations and still having its bugs worked out. The tank was almost mythical at the time. It was just sitting there in dust, and I have pictures of it that I will eventually post here--I have to retrieve them from my parent's home in Pennsylvania...

The MBT70 was a fascinating vehicle. It was lower and faster than an M60. and had brand new version (at the time) of spaced armor. Coolest of all, it had hydropneumatic suspension, which meant it could "hull down" in defilade. One bizarre thing was that the driver sat in the turret! How weird? The weapons system however--aside from the excellent German-made main gun--was very very troublesome and too complex. Further problems with the new turbine engine spelled its doom. From Wiki: "Commentators on the MBT-70 typically assert that though it was innovative in many respects, the project was ruined by the use of too many untried and unproven technologies. Senator James W. Fulbright mentioned that "to drive a MBT-70, a master's degree in a technical institute would be required." Bummer.

I have waited many years to see this in kit form, and I"m happy to now build it, even if it's a German style. I have no doubt that the American version will be out soon. For the record, YOU CAN NOT BUILD AN AMERICAN VERSION OUT-OF-THE-BOX WITH THIS KIT!!! From the research I have done, a "Chuck4" on Armorama has posted that:

"...German engine deck has two big round openings for the radiator fans, the American one doesn't.
German rear bulkhead has horizontal air louvres, American ones don't
German turret tops usually feature two separate independent rotating pericsopic sighting heads. Most American prototypes seem to feature only one.
German vehicles have distinctive German single lens circular headlight with little blackout lamps on top, American vehicles have m-60 style twin lens head lamps. "  ---so that's that!

I will be painting this model in a "clean" style, focusing on rendering a "scale effect" finish through shading and painting. I want to make it look just like it looked when I saw it---clean, but just a lttlwe bit of dust.. It'll have some age-related weathering--leaky road seals, etc. but nothing else.

First, here's the differences between the two, visually. You can't really miss the differences. Strange that the AMerican one has the big beer coolers on the turret side, but not the German one?! WinkBeer

Here's the kit and some of the elements:

A nice addition is this 4-page walkaround in color. I would have preferred a fret of Photoetch for the many small chains that go around the vehicle and also the engine vent screens which are missing, but this is still a nice touch, and necessary too, as some of the instructions have rather ambiguous placement drawings. There are no available PE sets for this model as of yet, so I'm going to build it basically OOB with perhaps a few small details, like said chains.

THe kit contents.

I guess you can't have enerything---like indy track links----but this has to be a new low for DML. Two-piece rubber bands?!?!?! WHAT IS THIS nonsense?!?!? Has DML been bought out by old Italeri execs?!!? Unforgiveable!! The top one is joined.

Now, some might say "Meh, what's wrong with that?" Well, here's what you get when you join the two--see how the spaces between the links is solid now? That means you CAN see the tracks joint. Just one of many odd and questionable engineering examples that I found in this kit so far--and I"m only done with the hull!

OK, so beginning with the suspension: look at the instructions for the suspension arms---they are coded so as to be put in in pairs, with different numbered arms; Parts D30, 31, 32, 33, etc, and four steps "D1, D2, D3, D4" etc., to be placed in alternating sequence...

!However, there is absolutely NO difference between either the suspension arms. So why not just mark them with the same numbers and assemble them as a whole, single step?

A bummer here: these small arms are supposed to go on the suspension bogeys. Two of them are incompletely formed. Ugh,. It figures--a rather complex bend to have to replicate.

Half an hour or more later...the two top ones are the replacemnents..not bad, passable at least. THese parts are actually 95% hidden behind the units.

Suspension finished...

The lights are a tricky affair to build. One slighly annoying thing about this kit is the use of very light  locating "indents" rather than actual "tabs and holes". It make assembly more tedious and dificult. You have to really watch that these lights get lined up and positioned correctly, This is where the color profile comes in handy.

The rear hull finished.

Another tricky assembly--the smoke dischargers. The mounts are each individually "handed", so make sure you watch the orientation of each individual one. Again, this is where the color profile helps in establishing the correct "sit".

I think I got them close to what was intended...

It's goog to have a modeling buddy to help with tedious sanding, etc..

That's it for now....back to the bench! Smile

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 10:31 AM

Very cool Karl, will be following for sure here!

And I look forward to the 'clean' build though thinking about how the tanks used to look at the Patton Museum at Fort Knox it would be kinda cool to do a tank that's been sitting on a concrete slab for the last thirty years with all the peeling paint, rust, and rotting rubber on the road wheels.

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 11:00 AM

This is gonna be another good one to watch! I do love Cold War stuff. Even if it never made it to full scale production.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 12:26 PM

Very cool Karl. I'm building the M-103A2 Black Label on commission and I'm more than a little over-whelmed by all of the assembly. Mine is supposed to be clean, but a little dusty, on a firing range in Guantanamo in the late 60's.

I will be watching what you do with this build and possibly replicating some things as I go.  :)

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 3:17 PM

http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/confused/confused-8.gif A clean build?

              http://nyfalls.com/board/images/smilies/panic.gif   Well......... we was warned.

                 Hmmmm.....  http://www.4smileys.com/smileys/computer-smileys/written.gif definitely something different  

               As always with Karl, http://www.nscale.net/forums/mysmiliesvb/mysmilie_511.gif We'll so be watching 'ya http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n55/tiggerracer/smileys/razz%20smileys/thputertired.gif~original

                             

                             

                                                            

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 3:24 PM

Black label, now that's a new one on me. Not to keen on the look of those tracks, hope this isn't going to be a sign of things to come. Certainly an interesting subject, look forward to seeing more.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 4:27 PM

Hey Mike,

I give ya credit for doing commissioned builds. I've done a few myself--just turned one down in November--but I have found that I can't stand to give them up once they're done, lol. I'm like that "surrogate mom" who doesn't want to give up the baby once she's carried it for nine months, lol. I just can't bear to part with them!

I have the original M103 kit. Haven't seen the second release yet. Post up a WIP on it!

Steve, I promise it'll be cool... :)

Thanks for following along, Bish! I'm going to try to hide that track joint. Hope it's not too hard. ...

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 4:36 PM

main problem I can see is that you have 2 joins on each track. Are both joins the same. Would it be possible to cut slits to match the other links.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 7:42 PM

Karl, if you have already finished the M-103A1 then you know what I'm up against lol. The suspension is a whole kit on its own. I have the only just completed the drive sprockets and I got the slotted resin replacements for the outer sprockets. After a light clean up they fit perfect.

I'll post a WIP when I can get pictures. This build is meant to be a gift for the guy who wrote a book about it. My father is a member on tank.net and he talks shop with the guys there. My Dad was an Army tanker in the 70's and he's got a lot of info that he shares with me lol. He has a lot of this guy's books. I think they are friends, but I don't know.

Aside from the correct outer drive sprockets this kit will be a completely OOB build.

Can't wait to see what you do with this build Karl. From all the other builds you've done I know this one will not disappoint.  :)

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Oromocto, Canada
Posted by Gun Tech on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 10:13 PM

The scratch replacements looks fine to me!  Off to a good start Karl.  The tracks look rather disappointing and are a step backward IMHO....  Sure, it might save a lot of time in the end, but like you pointed out, the joints might be noticeable.  Like Bish mentioned, you might be able to cut slits in the joints to make them look like normal links, it could help in "blending them".  Seems like it might be a bit tricky though.

Is it just me, or does the turret have a bit of a Sturmgeschütz look to it?  

Jean-Michel    "Arte et Marte"

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 7:34 AM

Bish, I was thinking of the same thing. I dunno if it will weaken the joints too much...I haven't gotten that far yet!

Mike, I have the M103 kit, but I haven't finished it yet. It's still in the stash. I do know, however, that the Patton series of tanks do have some complex suspension assemblies. By the way, if you have a Dremel tool, putting those lightening holes in is no problem. YOu can ever drill them in without much effort, but if you are doing a commission where the guy is fronting the cost, you might as well use AM parts. :)

Jean-Michel, thanks---the turret kinda does have that impression, doesn't it? In the front mantlet area...don't know what I"ll do about the tracks yet. I should be getting to those by week's end.. :)

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 8:47 AM

Looking forward to your handling of the beast.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 8:55 AM

Not to wander off subject here but I've got most of a Dragon M103A1 together without any real issues but for the darn thermal shield on the engine deck. It sticks up so high the turret rubs against it when you mount it. Mike, did you have this problem?  I think Mister T had the same issue on his.

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 9:57 AM

those big boxes on the US version are weights added to compensate for the lighter mild steel that the prototypes were made of.

None of the surviving American versions are the same, so it would be hard to produce an American version. I plan on making mine into what I think and American tank would have looked like if it had been placed into production. Among the options is if it received a different main gun like a standard US 105mm or the German 120mm we use today.

To deal with the back deck, I'm thinking of seeing if the engine deck details from an M60 will work. But this might be a bridge too far.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 10:07 AM

Yes, an operational MBT-70 is a nice "what if" armor modelers dream project. Just the power pack and armament options alone make for interesting options. Detail fitting like smoke grenade launchers, stowage boxes and racks, external pintle mount machine guns for the TC and drivers hatches, MERDC or MASSTER camo... it's not even too far a stretch to imagine an ERA block fit coming along in the mid 80s or so.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 12:43 PM

Ye, I see what you mean Karl. Tricky one.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 5:16 PM

Karl, have fun, looks like you're deep into the foibles of the Dragon "Black Death" series......

This one would be a perfect companion to the nuked Roosky tank you did a while ago, since they both got nixed for production due to tech issues.

My dad was involved in armor production on the MBT70 program, which meant we moved around the country a lot.....

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 9:25 PM
Glad to see your building this kit Karl as I have ben eyeballing it but was not sure of its quality . Seems to be alright except for the track join . Maybe that can hid from plain view some how .
  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: Denver, Colorado
Posted by waynec on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 10:35 PM

I was in an M60A2 unit (3-33AR) in Germany in the 70s. We transitioned to A2s in August 1975. The 152 Gun/Missile system we had was originally designed for the US MBT-70. Slow main gun round, IIRC 2850 fps and the Shillelagh was guided like a TOW using an IR beam instead of a wire.We had the first passive sights and the tank commander had a POWER cupola stabilized independent of the main gun..

can't wait for someone to come out with a good M60A2 so i can build my tank.

Никто не Забыт    (No one is Forgotten)
Ничто не Забыто  (Nothing is Forgotten)

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:19 PM

Wayne, it sounds like you and my Father may have served in the same unit at the same time. I'll have to ask him about it to confirm, but I believe he was also in the 3-33 AR. He commanded the same tank, I know that much.

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:35 PM

Gamera,

I have not had this problem yet. So far the turret clears the engine deck perfectly, but I have not started building the turret yet. I just have the two pieces sitting on each other so far. But aside from the missing Instructions for the Searchlight mounting hardware I have not had any fit issues at all.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed now that you guys are mentioning I may start seeing them.

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: Denver, Colorado
Posted by waynec on Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:36 PM

M. Brindos

Wayne, it sounds like you and my Father may have served in the same unit at the same time. I'll have to ask him about it to confirm, but I believe he was also in the 3-33 AR. He commanded the same tank, I know that much.

that would be freaky. there were only 4 battalions of them in europe; 3-33 and 1-32 in 3AD and 2 in 1AD. I was there '75 thru half of '78. had the 4.2" mortar platoon the last year so didn't hang out as much with the DATs (Dumb Ass Tankers). my tank was C-16.

Никто не Забыт    (No one is Forgotten)
Ничто не Забыто  (Nothing is Forgotten)

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:45 PM

Rob Gronovius

those big boxes on the US version are weights added to compensate for the lighter mild steel that the prototypes were made of.

None of the surviving American versions are the same, so it would be hard to produce an American version. I plan on making mine into what I think and American tank would have looked like if it had been placed into production. Among the options is if it received a different main gun like a standard US 105mm or the German 120mm we use today.

To deal with the back deck, I'm thinking of seeing if the engine deck details from an M60 will work. But this might be a bridge too far.

Rob,

I honestly think that is a brilliant idea! Kinda like "Panzer 46", this site that I go on that has all these conceptual tanks and imaginaive pairings of different turrets, guns, etc. I'm jealous I didn't think of it first!

I didn't know that about the boxes on the side, Thanks!

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:46 PM

Russ, that's cool that your Dad worked on that! Wow--did he take any "secret photos"?!?

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:47 PM

Carl, it's not a bad kit, it's just rather poorly engineered in my opinion. See my update for some of the problems... Good to see you back on the forum and active!

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Saturday, February 7, 2015 7:36 PM

the doog

Rob Gronovius

those big boxes on the US version are weights added to compensate for the lighter mild steel that the prototypes were made of.

None of the surviving American versions are the same, so it would be hard to produce an American version. I plan on making mine into what I think and American tank would have looked like if it had been placed into production. Among the options is if it received a different main gun like a standard US 105mm or the German 120mm we use today.

To deal with the back deck, I'm thinking of seeing if the engine deck details from an M60 will work. But this might be a bridge too far.

Rob,

I honestly think that is a brilliant idea! Kinda like "Panzer 46", this site that I go on that has all these conceptual tanks and imaginaive pairings of different turrets, guns, etc. I'm jealous I didn't think of it first!

I didn't know that about the boxes on the side, Thanks!

More along the lines of a "Team Yankee" concept. I've done it a few times before, once with a Sgt York turret on an Abrams hull that I call the "Sergeant Major York."

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, February 7, 2015 7:47 PM

OK, almost ready for  paint here...here's the work so far....basically a bunch of little details that I"m adding here and there.

First, the welds on the turret front were really kinda anemic in my view, so I added some .020 strip on them.

I used my $14.00 AC Moore pyrogravure that I bought years ago to add weld marks. This is basically a low-heat "Stencil cutter" that I found. If you're interested in one, here's the link to my posting about it:

Pyrogravure

Before I dressed them up by filing and sanding, they looked like this:

Two of the apertures on the turret are blank inside, when they're plainly filled with...things.

I made an insert for the one on the left of the gun.

ANd the one in the night vision scope or whatever that is..

Ya know, nothing complex, but enough to make an impression rather than just empty voids.

This kinda annoyed me. The attachment points for the sprocket and idlers are so flimsy that I couldn't even think of fitting the tracks because the darned things won't even stay on the mounts! The sprockets, especially--I can't believe this weak engineering mistake here--attach with no actual peg at all. (left) You are just supposed to glue them onto the projecting plastic cones there! The "post" sticking out of the other side on the right sprocket here is actually supposed to be on the outside!

It honestly looks to me as if this is some kind of ommission or error in the instructions--I mean, it wouldn't be the first time for Dragon, would it? I couldn't find any actual pegs, however, to put in it  And here is the tiny attachment point for the idlers!

SO I had to fix these. I drilled out the posts for the idlers and inserted posts that would fit into the smaller hole inside the idler's original hole, augmenting the strength of the attachment. Yes--I did straighten that one on the right there..

The sprockets were more tricky. The hole in the sprcket proper and the hole in the mounting posts are of diffrent diamters, I had to cut a post-- 1.0 styrene rod, and then cut a piece of styrene tube in half with a micro saw blade and then paste those semi-circles around the post, wait for them to harden under the glue, and sand them down to the correct size. What an annoyance, honestly. Angry

.And it's almost ready for primer and paint..the only other hing I"m going to do is to add some twisted wire "chains" to the smoke dischargers. I should have some primer on by tomorrow night..

Stay tuned, guys....almost ready for paint! Smile

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Saturday, February 7, 2015 8:27 PM

Okay, that's some better progress than I'm making. The inserts are brilliant and I like how you do your weld seams. They look very clean like they should.

I do have a little more of a peg to work with on the M-103 though. Yours truly are just stubs. What concerns me more is the way they have the bogies attached. It doesn't seem like they will hold up to any kind of pressure. So I'm afraid that if I were to apply too much force while stretching on the tracks I may knock a few off. I'm leaving off the drive sprockets till final assembly due to that concern.

There are no pegs for the drive sprockets on the M-103 either, but they do have something to glue the sprockets to and not a big hole to cover up. That has got to be a huge error in either engineering or some left out part that should be there. Heck if I know which.

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: Denver, Colorado
Posted by waynec on Saturday, February 7, 2015 11:10 PM

3-33AR was in 1st Bde at Kirch-Goens and 1-32AR was in 3d Bde in Friedburg. Don't know where the 2 1AD units were. 

My college roommate the last 2 years went artillery and i went armor. We got to Germany about the same time and he ended up with the FA Bn in Friedburg which was a 30 min drive from me in KG aka the rock. small world.

Никто не Забыт    (No one is Forgotten)
Ничто не Забыто  (Nothing is Forgotten)

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Sunday, February 8, 2015 12:14 AM

I'm still waiting for a response from my Dad, Wayne. All I know is that I was born in the Bamberg Army Hospital in '75. I'm not sure what base that's close to or what AR/AD was around that area... yet.

I know we were there in that time frame though and he commanded an M-60. I'll get back to you on that when I know more. :)

Back to you, Karl.  :)

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

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