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*AIRBRUSH OPINION* Iwata or Paasche

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 7:26 AM

Soooo, Count, after reading the various input here, are you any closer to making a decision on an airbrush? Just curious as to what you come up with. Whatever the choice, be sure to post your initial comments or "review" (and maybe a few pics of your initial work!)

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by tyamada on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:07 AM

Sorry about the bad link, didn't keep my eye on the ball.  I went back and corrected the link.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:13 AM

LOL! No harm, no foul.

Done it myself. You copy something, then think you copied something else and paste without really looking. Darned clipboard and it's darned long memory!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:04 PM

mucker
 The Count:

Man, thank you all so much for the info.

I am not sure what the model number is on the paasche. I have to choose from these brands because this is just about all they carry at hobby lobby and for other reasons, that is where i have to buy this equipment.

Count: If it's down to what Hobby Lobby carries, the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, hands down. Mine is 8+ years strong with the same needle.

Second.

With the 40% off coupon, the Iwata Eclipse HP-BCS or the HP-CS at Hobby Lobby beats any internet price from other Iwata dealers. They also carries the nozzle and needle for both. Replacement parts will be cheap and readily available when you need them.

Hobby Lobby does not carry the Paasche Talon or the Millennium at my location. The old VL design does not feel as comfortable as the modern ones in hand.

If you consider mail order, the Hardee & Steenbeck at Chicago Airbrush is a very good deal too. I got a Evolution Silverline Solo shipped free and 10% off the price.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 1:15 PM

keilau

 

 

 

Mike, Don and Bill,

You guys are all missing the point here. It is not about how fine a line. It is about whether the customer who lays out his hard cash deserved the information of the airbrush. When I am told that the nozzle has a fine nozzle, I want to know if it is 0.2 mm fine or 0.5 mm fine instead of being radiculed for asking irrelevant information.

No Keilau I am sorry but it is you who are missing the real relevant points here as usual!

The diameter of the needle and tip don't mean much and I have even heard you say so. Why now are you reversing yourself? I have told you over and over ad nauseam that needle taper is the determining factor of an airbrushes line width and I have also seen you echo that comment as well. Do you think the airbrush manufacturers should also give out the needle taper diameters as a selling point? 

Some people really need to get educated on what an airbrush can do and why and stop nit picking the measurement details which mean little to nothing to 98% of those using them! Confused

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by tyamada on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 2:14 PM

Once you add the sales tax it's a toss up on the Hobby Lobby price. 

As I said before Hobby Lobby only carries Iwata and Paasche, why limit yourself to just two companies.

I bought a HP-BCS at Hobby Lobby awhile back with a 40% discount coupon and found out later that I could have save $10.00 by ordering from the internet.

 

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:01 PM

MikeV

 

The diameter of the needle and tip don't mean much and I have even heard you say so. Why now are you reversing yourself? I have told you over and over ad nauseam that needle taper is the determining factor of an airbrushes line width and I have also seen you echo that comment as well. Do you think the airbrush manufacturers should also give out the needle taper diameters as a selling point? 

Some people really need to get educated on what an airbrush can do and why and stop nit picking the measurement details which mean little to nothing to 98% of those using them! Confused

Mike,

There are 2 issues here.

First, does the airbrush buyer deserve to know the nozzle diameter before they buy. I said "yes". How much the nozzle diameter influences the line width is not the issue.

The second issue is the needle taper. You are right that it is one of the most important performance driver. The taper of an Iwata Eclipse fine needle is twice (2 times) the taper length of a Badger Patriot fine needle. And I can feel the difference of the two with the advantage going to the longer taper Iwata. The large nozzle needle of the Iwata (0.5 mm nozzle) has a taper that is 50% longer the Badger fine needle taper (also 0.5 mm nozzle).

I am not an aritist and do not do free hand details. But I like the linear, gradual transition of the longer tapered Iwata for the feel of control it gives me in regular modeling. I care less about how fine a line it can draw.

If you are proposing that the manufacturers should spec BOTH the nozzle diameter AND needle taper length, I am all for it.

Just like the displacement and horsepower of an engine does not determine how well a car drives, but the manufacturer should include those information in the car spec.

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:10 PM

The poor horse has been dead for a while now....

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:22 PM

And if an airbrush cost thousands of dollars, it might be more pertinent. However, so far I've never seen any airbrush manufacturer state the taper length on their websites, and while most state the needle diameter, most don't tell you what that actually means. So as specifications they are useless. As useless as HP specs on cars without some idea of how that HP is applied. All I care about is how thin, and how fat of a line can I spray. Badger will tell me that. Most other airbrushes won't. Needle diameter and taper is just so much fluff.

Let's look at it this way, The Porsche 911 GT3 RS has a 3.8 liter flat 6 putting out 450hp and costs $136,000 as a base model. The Lotus Exige SC has a 1.8 liter inline 4 that puts out 240hp and costs $75,000.

Which is faster?

You don't know, do you? At least, not from those specs. I haven't told you weight, torque or a whole slew of other specs that will help.

Fact is, they accelerate from 0-60mph in the same 4.0 second time. The Porsche weigh in at 3082 lbs, and the Lotus is a svelte 2077 lbs. The Lotus will show up the Porsche on the track, too.

But the Porsche will make your leggy blond girlfriend much happier! Which is the better car? Much harder to say, as both are created as toys for boys who spend their weekends on the race course. Your leggy blond friend just left with the guy in the Jaguar!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:18 PM
Bgrigg
Which is the better car?
Come on Bill...I can't believe you missed this one, especially since you gave us the answer! The one that makes my leggy-blond girlfriend happy is obviously the better of the two!!! ...to be honest (and killjpy is right about the horse) I'm not sure what the arguement is anymore. As a novice modeller (8 years now), I've found what I like and don't like about my airbrushes. When looking for a new one, the eyes are drawn to both price and needle/nozzle size, as that is what is commonly called out. But you are also right that the size line one can create is what I am looking for (both wide and narrow). Does that mean you are both right?

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:15 PM

That's why I mentioned the Jag at the end! That's the one the leggy blond really likes best!

Yeah, I guess Keilau has a point about the specifications. Any information that give the consumer a clue to what to expect is helpful, which is why I like to see "real world" numbers like 1/16" to 2" in preference to .5mm.

I'll give the horse a chance to catch it's breath now... Whistling

So long folks!

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:38 PM

Bgrigg

Let's look at it this way, The Porsche 911 GT3 RS has a 3.8 liter flat 6 putting out 450hp and costs $136,000 as a base model. The Lotus Exige SC has a 1.8 liter inline 4 that puts out 240hp and costs $75,000.

Which is faster?

Ninja ZX-14.  $14,000

195.6 mph  0-60 in 2.5 seconds!  Like having an Acme rocket between your legs!

As for the leggy blonds girlfriend, well lets say that when I was a bit younger and lived in Florida, My 600 ninja was very popular with Ms. Du Jour!

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 7:10 PM

No fair bringing a motorcycle to a car fight!

My bike daze are long past (or is it that I'm long past my prime? No matter!) but the chicks used to dig my '76 Kawasaki 1000, done up as a cafe racer (3/4 fairing, flat bars, resets, full racing leathers) back in the day. Between that bike and my '67 'Cuda I was on first name basis with the local RCMP constabulary!

Sure didn't go as fast at that Ninja. Don't know if I ever want to go as fast as that Ninja without a couple more tires on the ground and a roll cage!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    March 2010
Posted by JWrockets on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:42 AM

I'm in the same boat as The Count.  Paasche VL or Iwata HP-CS.  Why?  Because Hobby Lobby is around the corner and they offer 40% off coupons.  If we need a part, we can drive and get it.  Now, sometimes the coupon is 30% off of Wilton Cake Decorating products.  It would be during those times when ordering online and paying shipping would actually be faster, unless we didn't care about paying full retail.  The 40% coupon is about every-over week. 

The Paasche VL lists for about $110 x 60% + 7% FL sales tax = $70.62

The Iwata HP-CS lists for about $179 x 60% + 7% FL sales tax = $114.92.

That's a difference of $44.30 I could spend on kits and paint.

I will never spend the time needed to become a world-class IPMS champion.  I will likely never purchase any photo-etched parts.  I've no intention to build diaramas or cut-aways.  I'll be blessed if I will be able to successfully mask off a canopy.

The Iwata looks nice but I'm sure the Paasche will be good enough for me provided my Sprayit 600-13 compressor can push paint through it.  And as I've never airbrushed before, I'll probably be happy with whatever I use first.

Places to go, people to expose.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 10:02 AM

There you go, then!

There is nothing wrong with the Paasche VL, it's a fine airbrush and will serve you well. I have both a siphon and gravity fed and I prefer the gravity fed brush, but as you say, that's another kit and a bunch of paint.

If you do buy an airbrush, what are you going to use as a source for air. That is actually a more important, and often more expensive, question as airbrushes are just straws that spit paint.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:05 AM

keilau

 

 MikeV:

 

 

The diameter of the needle and tip don't mean much and I have even heard you say so. Why now are you reversing yourself? I have told you over and over ad nauseam that needle taper is the determining factor of an airbrushes line width and I have also seen you echo that comment as well. Do you think the airbrush manufacturers should also give out the needle taper diameters as a selling point? 

Some people really need to get educated on what an airbrush can do and why and stop nit picking the measurement details which mean little to nothing to 98% of those using them! Confused

 

 

Mike,

There are 2 issues here.

First, does the airbrush buyer deserve to know the nozzle diameter before they buy. I said "yes". How much the nozzle diameter influences the line width is not the issue.

The second issue is the needle taper. You are right that it is one of the most important performance driver. The taper of an Iwata Eclipse fine needle is twice (2 times) the taper length of a Badger Patriot fine needle. And I can feel the difference of the two with the advantage going to the longer taper Iwata. The large nozzle needle of the Iwata (0.5 mm nozzle) has a taper that is 50% longer the Badger fine needle taper (also 0.5 mm nozzle).

I am not an aritist and do not do free hand details. But I like the linear, gradual transition of the longer tapered Iwata for the feel of control it gives me in regular modeling. I care less about how fine a line it can draw.

If you are proposing that the manufacturers should spec BOTH the nozzle diameter AND needle taper length, I am all for it.

Just like the displacement and horsepower of an engine does not determine how well a car drives, but the manufacturer should include those information in the car spec.

You are an engineer and that is why you want so much data on an airbrush.

I am a model builder with some art background with airbrushes and I have also done some machining in my younger days. Those specs don't impress me and they have no bearing on the airbrushes performance and that is why I stress that point so much. It has become a selling point and I think it has misled many into buying an airbrush they did not need to spend so much on but they bought it because it had the smallest tip diameter.

So what? I bet they can't paint any better than a guy with a far less expensive airbrush that doesn't list the diameter of the tip or needle.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:24 AM

This is true, and the point I was poorly trying to make with the analogy to cars. Let me try again.

To an aficionado, the HP and torque ratings are important specifications, who wants them as bragging rights. Granny, who just wants a grocery getter, could care less what the HP is. She wants to know if she's comfortable and safe. She's going to be more interested in how many miles per gallon, and what her insurance is.

When I bought my last vehicle, I didn't even look at the HP specs. Useless for what I was doing. I was buying a people carrier, and I wanted one that would carry my family in safety and comfort. I wanted to know I wasn't going to spend most of my day at the gas pump, or being bent over the counter at the insurance agent. OMG I'M GRANNY! Surprise

And so it is with the average airbrush user. Details like taper length and needle diameter are basically meaningless without a reference point. Engineers LIVE for numbers, so those are important to you.

But if you're going to ask for numbers, ask for what line widths the airbrush is capable of (which is different from what the airbrusher is capable of!), as that is a specification we all can use.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:17 PM

I see our horse has risen from the dead!! That just means more kicking Big Smile

I could be wrong on this (or just mistaken), but on the other end of the spectrum  doesn't  the needle size give some indication of maximum spray width? This was equally important to me in my recent airbrush hunting. A few forum-goers (I think Keilau included) recommended the H&S Evolution, which looks like a tremendous AB, but the 0.2 needle size had me concerned that I couldn't use it for broader applications.

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:29 PM

mucker

I see our horse has risen from the dead!! That just means more kicking Big Smile

I could be wrong on this (or just mistaken), but on the other end of the spectrum  doesn't  the needle size give some indication of maximum spray width? This was equally important to me in my recent airbrush hunting. A few forum-goers (I think Keilau included) recommended the H&S Evolution, which looks like a tremendous AB, but the 0.2 needle size had me concerned that I couldn't use it for broader applications.

 

Yes Mucker that is a good question. The larger the size of the needle and tip the more paint it will put out!

I have posted in the past two of the airbrushes that I have found to put out the most paint and those were the Badger Crescendo and the Badger Anthem 155.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:58 PM

Needle size is an indicator of line width, but only because that also changes the taper. Neither as mere numbers are going to give novices any clue other than the smaller the size, the thinner the line.

Badger describes their needle sizes as Fine, Medium and Heavy, which tells the novice no more than a  number would. However, they also give you this guide:

• Fine (F) - pencil line to 2" (51mm) spray pattern
• Medium (M) - 1/32" (0.8mm) to 2 1/2" (63mm) spray pattern
• Heavy (H) - 1/16" (1.5mm) to 3" (76mm) spray pattern

I have yet to see a corresponding guide from any other manufacturer.

As you can see, there isn't a huge amount of difference at the narrow end of the spectrum (and how wide is a pencil line? Is that based on an freshly sharpened HB (#2 1/2) or what?), but a bit more at the wide end. And there is still no indication of how far away the needle is from the surface to achieve those sizes!

There are just too many variables to be precise in predicting the pattern without testing. The distance from the surface to the needle and air pressure makes as much or more difference than the needle size. Even the medium used and the the amount of thinner to paint can affect width.

The point is 99% of the time, it barely matters what the needle size or taper is. Very few modelers have the need for pencil thin lines, and most of us are spraying flood coats at around 1" - 2" is width, and all sizes of needles will do that.

Needle size is more an indicator of the difficulty spraying a relatively thick medium like model paint. Clogging tips becomes a greater issue, possibly requiring filtering the paint to remove lumps and a higher thinner to paint ratio, which can invite tip dry with acrylics.

I recommend medium sizes (.4 or .5mm) as being more useful to modelers OVERALL. I've not come across a need for smaller than 1/32" or wider than 2 1/2". I have two 100LGs, one Fine and one Medium, and it's the Medium I use most. I also have a single action 200-20 with Medium and I can spray a thinner line with that than either 100LGs! Which is entirely due to my inability to use a dual action airbrush and hold a thin line consistently. Embarrassed

If you've already bought the Evolution with the .2mm nozzle/needle and are having troubles, you can buy the .4m nozzle/needle as parts. It just costs more to buy them separately than buying the 2 in 1 version.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:57 PM

That's some great info, Bill. Definately a nice guideline from Badger...it gives a realistic expectation of the line size to  the modeller. And you're definately right...there isn't  a huge amount of difference between the three they show.

I wish I would have known that about the 0.2mm needle. If it could spray as wide as 2" it would be suitable...I probably would have bought the Evolution.

Clumsy me dropped my Iwata Evolution HP-CS and broke the threads on the needle chuck. I hemmed and hawed over the replacement parts (@$20 w/ shipping) or "upgrading" to a "better" airbrush. The HP-CS has been my workhorse for many years and I really like the versatility and ease of use/cleaning, but I had some issues with smaller German mottling.

I'm still working out the right formula of paint thickness, air pressure and distance. I fit in the description you made in an earlier post: the capabilities of the AB definately outrank the capabilities of the user!

My only use for "hairline" paintng is on some of the German mottling I'm challenging myself with. They sure had some cool camo schemes and I enjoy the challenge. I want to improve my AB skills.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Northern KY
Posted by mucker on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:02 PM

MikeV

 mucker:

I see our horse has risen from the dead!! That just means more kicking Big Smile

I could be wrong on this (or just mistaken), but on the other end of the spectrum  doesn't  the needle size give some indication of maximum spray width? This was equally important to me in my recent airbrush hunting. A few forum-goers (I think Keilau included) recommended the H&S Evolution, which looks like a tremendous AB, but the 0.2 needle size had me concerned that I couldn't use it for broader applications.

 

 

Yes Mucker that is a good question. The larger the size of the needle and tip the more paint it will put out!

I have posted in the past two of the airbrushes that I have found to put out the most paint and those were the Badger Crescendo and the Badger Anthem 155.

I think most airbrushers try to find that "perfect airbrush" which can spray mico-thin lines and 12" wide blankets with the twist of a dial!

For me personally I'm trying to narrow down to my own Holy Grail that will accomplish my general work AND smaller detailed mottle on German aircraft. Right now I'm back and forth between my Iwata Evolution  and the Sotar 20/20.

In Bill's automotive terms, I'm more of a Ford-guy...Whistling

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
Posted by The Count on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:13 PM

Man, I had no idea you guys would be so passionate about this. All this information has been great to learn. Thanks guys.

Bow Down Bow Down Bow Down

 

On the Bench: 1:25 1969 Z/28 Camaro RS, 1/48 Hasegawa F6F-3 Hellcat

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