Tamiya Fine Surface Primer

Eaglecash867

 

Never liked the waste of product either, along with being at the mercy of what it was doing outside before I could go out and use a rattle can to apply primer.  I also have no overspray in the room and can put primer exactly where I want it, so if anything needs to be masked off, its just going to be a small area around where I'm shooting the primer.  Granted, the decanting process is more complicated than just shooting directly from the can, but the small can of Tamiya Surface Primer ends up lasting me anywhere from 4 to 6 months...and I prime everything.

Messing with different ways of getting things done has always been half the hobby to me too.  Before I started decanting, I tried watching videos of how to do it, and there were all these guys out there putting masking tape over paper cups, punching holes in the tape, and decanting just what they needed right then.  A bunch more were cutting the cans open, making all of these elaborate setups to keep from making a mess, and that's when I thought "there HAS to be a better way!"...and then the gears in my head start turning.  I just bought a case of mason jars and started decanting everything, a whole can at a time.  5 to 10 minutes of time investment, for months of trouble-free, weather-independent airbrushing.

 

I'd say 2/3 of a year represents some sort of issue trying to spray model stuff outside here where I live. And no way spray bombs are getting discharged indoors in my house. At one time in my life probably so but my wife is asthmatic, I'm prone to all sorts of head infections etc. Add in small pets,  Not happening, period.

I agree completely on 4-6 times difference in product used at least, between airbrush and the same stuff in spray cans. Especially so on certain types of spray jobs. You cut the flow back on the airbrush and lower pressure to where you barely see a mist at all in some cases, but as you move in to the part you can see it collecting on the piece as you make each pass. 3-4 passes later it's covered, dump the remainder back in your decant jar. Huge difference from blasting the thing with the spray can . With the can 2/3 of what comes out just goes off into the air. They invented airbrushes for a reason.

oldermodelguy

To me the spray can works great except for the fact it represents a colossal waste of product. I sprayed a chassis to a 34 Ford pickup outside with the can and the slight breeze swept away a huge cloud of product each time I pressed the nozzle. I decanted then shot the same primer ( Mr Surfacer in my case) in my kitchen into a trash can. Virtually no over spray in the room, I shot a seat and another small part taped to the top of a tums container. Used a thimble full of paint in the side cup of my airbrush and returned half of that back to my decanted jar. It's a huge difference in the amount of primer used when you pin point where it's going with the airbrush at low pressure and low liquid flow. Much more control over all factors. But that's me, half of the hobby to me is diddling around with stuff like this. Not so much to others. So happens when I bought the Mr Surfacer they only had spray cans in stock, which might be fine for a medium scale ship hull but not for what I do. I normally stock jars, I have Mr Primer Surfacer in jars but that's not what I wanted for this kit as it only comes light/medium grey.. So I decanted, no big deal.

Never liked the waste of product either, along with being at the mercy of what it was doing outside before I could go out and use a rattle can to apply primer.  I also have no overspray in the room and can put primer exactly where I want it, so if anything needs to be masked off, its just going to be a small area around where I'm shooting the primer.  Granted, the decanting process is more complicated than just shooting directly from the can, but the small can of Tamiya Surface Primer ends up lasting me anywhere from 4 to 6 months...and I prime everything.

Messing with different ways of getting things done has always been half the hobby to me too.  Before I started decanting, I tried watching videos of how to do it, and there were all these guys out there putting masking tape over paper cups, punching holes in the tape, and decanting just what they needed right then.  A bunch more were cutting the cans open, making all of these elaborate setups to keep from making a mess, and that's when I thought "there HAS to be a better way!"...and then the gears in my head start turning.  I just bought a case of mason jars and started decanting everything, a whole can at a time.  5 to 10 minutes of time investment, for months of trouble-free, weather-independent airbrushing.

cbaltrin

Never had any issue with the stuff. Are you warning the can up beore spraying? I can't imagine ever getting anything but  a smooth finish with Tamiya fine surface primer...

 

To me the spray can works great except for the fact it represents a colossal waste of product. I sprayed a chassis to a 34 Ford pickup outside with the can and the slight breeze swept away a huge cloud of product each time I pressed the nozzle. I decanted then shot the same primer ( Mr Surfacer in my case) in my kitchen into a trash can. Virtually no over spray in the room, I shot a seat and another small part taped to the top of a tums container. Used a thimble full of paint in the side cup of my airbrush and returned half of that back to my decanted jar. It's a huge difference in the amount of primer used when you pin point where it's going with the airbrush at low pressure and low liquid flow. Much more control over all factors.

But that's me, half of the hobby to me is diddling around with stuff like this. Not so much to others. So happens when I bought the Mr Surfacer they only had spray cans in stock, which might be fine for a medium scale ship hull but not for what I do. I normally stock jars, I have Mr Primer Surfacer in jars but that's not what I wanted for this kit as it only comes light/medium grey.. So I decanted, no big deal.

Never had any issue with the stuff. Are you warning the can up beore spraying? I can't imagine ever getting anything but  a smooth finish with Tamiya fine surface primer...

Once the can is out of pressure you can drill a hole near the top, turn the can so material will drip out, then drill a vent hole in the bottom. 1/8" or less bit size.

You actually can drain the whole can that way. Just let the can sit and rest, drill a pin hole up near the top so it can out gas. No paint will exit because the hole is well above the liquid line, these cans are only 2/3 full or so, the rest gas. Open the hole up a bit once outgassing is done. Turn it upside down on top of your new storage container ( I use cleaned out glass honey jars) Then drill a pin hole in the bottom so as the liquid leaves it can draw in air through that vent hole you made. No fuss no mess, nothing to clean up.

Glass Honey jars work, jam/jelly jars etc. I just cut a gasket for the top from a Cheerios box or similar, that the solvents won't eat.

good point about the remnants in the can, there is always product leftover you can't get out after the aerosol stops 

Eaglecash867

The main point of my post was that there are lots of options out there for thinning when using this method of decanting and airbrushing.  

 

I agree and do it myself. But it seems I got the thread out of sequence anyway, so you can stop banging your head lol !!!.

The main point of my post was that there are lots of options out there for thinning when using this method of decanting and airbrushing.  

Actually i did not say i wanted it i was responding to an earlier post that said they didnt think it was available as the substitute. I have no need for it

John3M

Mek substitute is available at home depot. I was looking for the original a noticed the mek substitution 

 

You don't want the substitute, nor the sub lacquer thinner either, and you don't absolutely even need MEK. I wouldn't trip over my untied shoes because I got out of the house so fast to go running around trying to find the stuff, I forgot to tie them. Other things do work and I think you will find that most here use something else.

Mek substitute is available at home depot. I was looking for the original a noticed the mek substitution 

I wouldn't even bother decanting it.  Tamiya Fine Surface Primer works very well right out of the spray can.

If you insist on airbrushing your primer, get one of the Mr Surfacer 1500 products and thin it with Mr Leveling Thinner.

I don't think you can even get the MEK substitute anymore in hardware stores.  They ended up finding out that the toxicity of MEK was a little bit over-hyped because of the rumor mill and also found out that the substitute was actually just as toxic, if not more so.  I get mine from an aviation supply warehouse near where I work since I work on 1:1 aircraft every day.  As Oldermodelguy was saying in the other thread, he uses laquer thinner, which should work just as well for you and you can still get that at the hardware store.  Just about every on-line hobby store sells Mr. Leveling Thinner which is a really fantastic lacquer thinner as well.  Lots of choices for thinning and cleanup of the Tamiya and Mr. Hobby/Gunze primers like Mr. Surfacer.  Just don't try using mineral spirits or isopropyl alcohol to thin those types of primer.  It won't be a catastrophic, dangerous chemical reaction or anything...it pretty much just instantly turns lacquer primers into a cottage cheese-like gel.

In either case of course (MEK or lacquer thinner), make sure you have adequate ventilation and protect your hands by wearing latex (not vinyl...vinyl will melt) gloves.  The gloves aren't really as much of a safeguard against poisoning as they are to just keep things like MEK from doing one of the things its really good at...which is to find cuts and scratches on your hands that you didn't even know you had.  You'll definitely know they're there if MEK touches them...OUCH.  Not to mention the fact that it instantly zaps all of the natural oils out of your skin and turns them a nice, flaky white.

I once used mek when i Built rc sailplanes i used it with epoxy to thin it and apply it to the carbon fiber i used for strength. i noticed it went off-market and now there is a substitute mek how is that version compared to the original?

Very very nice, EC. I like your system. It is well thought out. It is a bit of a process but once you get the hardware lined up, it becomes fairly easy after that. Then it becomes just several minutes of work for a supply that might last me several months. And if I don't have the spray issues that started this thread, I'd be a happy camper. I will keep a full can to do the Tojo method too.

Looks like a trip to the hardware store is in order. 

Thanks for taking the time to post all this. I really appreciate it. Once when I do this and get it tested, I will report back how the paint behaves for me. "Oh behave."

It's all a journey. 

Here are the photos of the last steps in the process.

4 ounce mason jar (available from Amazon, with metal lids, in packs of 12), 1 mason jar lid sacrificed to be the decanting lid (1/4" ID rubber grommet installed in hole that was drilled), completed party straw/nozzle assembly.

Screw the decanting lid, loosely, onto the jar to let propellant vent as you spray.  Shake primer can to be decanted to thoroughly mix the contents before decanting.  Put the party straw/nozzle assembly back on the can of primer the nozzle was removed from.  Bend the straw and insert it into the grommet.  Spray entire contents of can into jar through straw.  Bob's your uncle.

After all the paint is emptied from the can, put one of the new lids on and leave it loosely screwed onto the jar for about 2 hours to let much of the propellant come out of solution.  After 2 hours, stir the decanted primer with a stick or something that is not motorized.  There will still be a lot of propellant in solution, so you'll see it begin to boil when the mixing stick touches it.  Stir it slowly, stopping when the primer gets close to boiling over.  Repeat that process until it no longer boils when stirring by hand.  Now its safe to screw the lid down tight and store your primer.  DO NOT, under any circumstances, use a motorized mixer at this stage.  It will boil beyond your control and you'll have it all over your benchtop.  Each time you get a little primer out of it to airbrush, it will need to be stirred by hand.  Again, don't use a motorized stirrer, because there is a thick sludge that settles to the bottom (this is normal) which will pull off in a big chunk onto your motorized stirrer and then fling thick, grey liquid all over the place.  To airbrush it, I thin it roughly 50/50 with MEK for an even better bite on the plastic.

Eaglecash867

 

 

Bakster

Either way--as of now-- I am still interested in decanting. EC-- please DO finish with your decanting process. Btw--McDonalds soda straws are a perfect fit for the Tamiya nozzels. It's like the engineers designed it that way. If I am careful, I don't even have to secure it because it's a press fit situation. But, securing it is a wiser idea and I have found that wrapping tape around the assembly works too. 

 

 

Will do, Bakster.  It was actually fully cured before I left for work this morning, but that was at 3:30AM...LOL.  I'll get the rest of the pics posted when I get home this afternoon.  Pretty much any straw works, but the nice little bendy part of the party straws make it really easy to just set the jar and can next to each other on the benchtop and just spray away.  Having to hold either item in your hands while doing this gets really uncomfortable, really quickly...the can and jar get COLD from the pressure release.

 

Wow! This sounds like quite an automation process. Cant wait to see the rest!

Bakster

Either way--as of now-- I am still interested in decanting. EC-- please DO finish with your decanting process. Btw--McDonalds soda straws are a perfect fit for the Tamiya nozzels. It's like the engineers designed it that way. If I am careful, I don't even have to secure it because it's a press fit situation. But, securing it is a wiser idea and I have found that wrapping tape around the assembly works too. 

Will do, Bakster.  It was actually fully cured before I left for work this morning, but that was at 3:30AM...LOL.  I'll get the rest of the pics posted when I get home this afternoon.  Pretty much any straw works, but the nice little bendy part of the party straws make it really easy to just set the jar and can next to each other on the benchtop and just spray away.  Having to hold either item in your hands while doing this gets really uncomfortable, really quickly...the can and jar get COLD from the pressure release.

Good morning Guys--happy Monday to ya. 

Firstly--I want to thank every one of you that responded! I really appreciate that you took the time and that you are sharing your knowledge! All of you have me reconsidering how I approach priming. I am leaning towards my on the go decanting as the problem. I may be gassing out certain things that in the end affects the remaining paint within the can. 

I love Tojos simplicity method, but I am still interested in Eaglecash's decanting process.  Sometimes, there are small tight interiors you need to get into that could be difficult to reach using a can. I am currently working on a project like that. Maybe I am wrong...maybe it would work. 

Either way--as of now-- I am still interested in decanting. EC-- please DO finish with your decanting process. Btw--McDonalds soda straws are a perfect fit for the Tamiya nozzels. It's like the engineers designed it that way. If I am careful, I don't even have to secure it because it's a press fit situation. But, securing it is a wiser idea and I have found that wrapping tape around the assembly works too. 

Tojo72

Whatever works for you.

Exactly.  My posts in this thread were in response to the OPs original question about decanted Tamiya primer.  Decanting and airbrushing works best for my situation because I don't have to coordinate that activity with whether or not its too hot, too cold, too windy, or raining outside.  Might be why the OP is doing it too.  I'm pretty sure its not because he thought it would be easier than simply spraying it out of the can.  Its no more complicated than gluing one piece of plastic to another piece of plastic though, and only needs to be done every six months or so.   

Way too complicated for me,will stick with the can,if I have to worry about  then I will give up the hobby 

Whatever works for you.

The nozzle cores on Tamiya cans stand out from the rest of the button/nozzle assembly and they are very close to being the same diameter as the inner diameter of the party straw.  I gently clamp it in my table-top vise.

In my case, the side of my ancient microwave oven makes a great place to tape the straw so it stands straight up after setting it over the nozzle core.

Then I mix up a small amount of epoxy, and run a bead of it around the base of the straw.  It will just kind of naturally form a fillet.

Did this all just now tonight.  It actually takes about 5 minutes to get everything together and get to the point in the last photo.  I'll post more pics tomorrow of the whole thing on the can and plugged into the grommet.

Eaglecash867

Attaching the straw to the paint nozzle with epoxy involves less than a minute of work. 

I'm definitely willing to try your method, but having trouble visualizing the orientation of the straw. I'm picturing the nozzle being blocked by the wall of the straw.  Obviously, that's not the case.  Any chance of a photo?

Well, there is always my method, which gets all of the paint out of the can in the way the can was designed to be emptied.  Its safer and won't make a mess.  Drilling the hole in the mason jar lid and installing the grommet takes less than a minute, and the lid gets used over and over again.  Attaching the straw to the paint nozzle with epoxy involves less than a minute of work.  Spraying all the paint to transfer it to a jar takes about 3 minutes.  The rest of the time required doesn't require any intervention, so you are free to do other things while the epoxy cures...and later while the propellant comes out of solution.  No need to use sharp metal tools to create sharp metal edges either.  

As for decanting versus spraying directly from the can.  You get a lot more out of a can of primer by decanting and airbrushing, because you're not losing a bunch of it to the air and to overspray.  Almost all of it goes right where you want it. 

Hutch6390

Is this safe?  Puncturing a pressurised container doesn't sound like a good idea to me - they carry warnings against doing just that.  Just my 2 pence worth (we don't have cents}

I'm sure one could make quite a mess or possibly rupture the can in dramatic fashion if done in haste.   I use a needle sharp automatic center punch set at low impact and make the first hole near the intersection of the top and side seam where the can is strongest.  I guess a paint infused shrapnel injury is always a possibility.

MJY65

I decided to vent the pressure, then cut the cans.  If you make the initial puncture near the top rim very small and don't agitate the can, it doesn't make a mess at all.   The pinhole will slowly vent pressure for a good half hour.  

Is this safe?  Puncturing a pressurised container doesn't sound like a good idea to me - they carry warnings against doing just that.  Just my 2 pence worth (we don't have cents}

I agree with Tojo and Bakster.  I have been using this stuff for years, sprayed directly out of the can, and always get beautiful results. Just keep the can moving and spray lightly.

I do not feel it is necessary to go through all that trouble as discussed here.

MJY65

I agree that doing it a bit at a time may be the problem.  It's unlikely that the mixture is uniform and probably heavy in solids by the end.  

After watching a few YouTube videos, I decided to vent the pressure, then cut the cans.  If you make the initial puncture near the top rim very small and don't agitate the can, it doesn't make a mess at all.   The pinhole will slowly vent pressure for a good half hour.  

Once all the pressure is gone, I cut the can, stir the contents and pour into Tamiya 46ml jars.  A 180ml spray will yield just over 70ml of product.  After letting it gas off,  put 35ml into each jar and fill to the 46 line with Tamiya Lacquer Thinner for a 3:1 mix.  

 

I've had very good results with this method.  

 

Interesting. I will look into this more too.

I forgot to mention the solvent I use. I am using Tamiyas lacquer thinner.