Off-Topic Discussion area removed

And finally

I agree with Murph on this, this place is a forum but the individual still has the ultimate choiceof reading or not reading a post or responding or not responding. What happens at those modeller conventions? Do we all gather according to our religious, racial or language preferences? No Sir, we mingle and trade war stories and if some of the talks get too serious or too extreme to our taste you have the choice of walking away or staying and have a civilized discussion with the other party.

Once again the great majority if the fine people who exchanged in the off-topic area will pay for a few out-of-control individuals.

well said. I really can care less either way to be honest, because whatever the powers that be say will be, will be. However, I do think they should reconsider. They did a great favour to this site by having an off-topic discussion forum, and it is this that I believe built the community. Now with this new forum, I'm not even clear on what the rules are? Do all topics have to relate to modeling? If so, this is a redundant forum, one not needed.

I don't see it as such at all.

QUOTE: Our host has simply seen that there may be more people hurt by topics not of the true nature of the forum

More people? I did not see even a FRACTION of the MINORITY complaining about anything in the defunct forum.

QUOTE: More people? I did not see even a FRACTION of the MINORITY complaining about anything in the defunct forum.

I recall seeing exactly one

Hello Ev1,
I would like to say that I am disappointed in this sudden decision!! First off as previously mentioned why was there not a vote by the readers and for the readers!!! We are the ones that could have made a difference!! But we weren't given the chance!! Secondly, I've never seen a discussion get out of hand on this forum!! I've made retorts at another site and realized it does no good!! And the message was deleted!! Very Quickly for that matter!! Now I don't see why the word games have to be considered frivolous!! When learned at laughed with those games and they were never malictious!! Where is the line drawn!! The readers should draw the line!! And for the few complainers who wrote in to administration should STAY OFF TOPIC IF THEY DONT LIKE IT!!! Because I don't like not being able to go to the off topic forum!! This is a real shame!! The magazine and the magizine's forum are going to be different because the readers can communicate!! There are too many different types of people in the world to only cater to a few!!! And also as far as trying to get higher numbers to move up in rank!! The off topic forum shouldn't have been counted towards our stars in the first place!!! This is a real shame!! I'm in shock!! I know I won't be coming here as I use too!! I mostly build autos and there isn't that much auto talk here!! The OT Forum did nothing but brighten my day and for many others as well!! Now because of a few people with bad outlooks to life had to grumple and start a fuss, Everyone else including your magazine!! Shall lose out on what have could of been!!! Farewell to all the great friends I got to know better OT!! It was loads of fun!!!! I'm about to cry!! I feel like I lost a friend!!! Take Care and thanks for letting me post this rebuttal!!! I beg all the administrators to rethink this and consider alternatives to this action!! Let's solve the problem, not toss out apart of the community!! Then pretend like it never happened!! When Woody said this place will never be the same!! He's right!! Plus this can't be good for the magazine either!! Please find a way to make all modelers feel welcome and have a place to play a few word games and talk about current events!! Anyone with a brain is going to have a stance on this war!! And no one stands the same way, but we can stand together on some issues if not all!!!
Cheers Ev1 & Take Care!!!!
Kelley

ok guys, their job is hard enough as it is, without us hotly reacting before they have completely clarified things.

so come on guys, give them a break!!!

Since this is the same topic as posted in "Announcements," here's the same reply I posted over there:

Sorry to see that it had to come to something as drastic as the removal of the OT forum.
I have mixed feelings about it. Personally, I was never offended by anythng there, but that is primarily because I never clicked on the controversial topics. I did enjoy the positive stuff that went on there.

Perhaps the "Odds and Ends" forum will incorporate the best of what the OT forum offered, without the harsh bits.

No matter what it becomes, I strongly urge any member thinking about cancelling his or her account because of all this to deeply reconsider. I don't want to see anyone on either side of this thing leave the forums.

QUOTE: Originally posted by roadkill_275 QUOTE: Originally posted by M1abramsRules say basically, your saying that this is the OT, except for politics and religion, and heated debates, and totally senseless posts??? does that mean we have free rein in this forum as long as we don't touch any of those hot button issues? I'd like to know exactly what is condoned. This is my question also. What exactly is allowed?

Post something. If it's deleted, you'll know it wasn't approved by the powers that be.

It's amazing how a couple of people with thin skin can change everything for the majority.
There were things said in some of the OT topics that I didn't agree with. But, I didn't think any less of the person posting their opinion. That is EXACTLY what it was. Their opinion.
And I also agree that this is just an extension of the General Modeling forum.
Oh well. Maybe if we ALL leave the site they will think about what they have done.
But, I, personally didn't and WON'T let one thread in one forum steer me away from the others that I enjoy reading.
But, I guess that is the way I was raised. Respect for other's opinions, even if you don't agree.
I will miss the OT forum. I got to know a lot of the membership a lot better.
Just my

Randie

PS I guess this means no more aircraft vs. armor threads!! Might offend one of the guys who builds the targets on the ground!!!

As in the duplicate thread in Announcements, there are some good comments here, and some legitimate questions that I should try to answer, but......I've got a bunch of important magazine deadlines in the next few days, so it'll be a while before I can respond properly. Nevertheless, I'm checking in to read your comments. Thanks, folks!

And I, for one, appreciate the fact that you all, as a group, at Kalmbach take the time to not just read but to also respond.
This is something that is missing too much in this day and age. For lack of a better description, we'll call it "customer support".
Thanks Lawrence for a great site and a great magazine.

Randie

Well, I too am disappointed about the change, but saw it coming. Yah, I get a little sick of the religous and political debates, but found them interesting nonetheless. It was a way of learning about others feelings and thoughts. Like I said, I just don't want to talk shop, because I will get bored real fast. I will lose no sleep over the dropping of the games, which I didn't care about anyway.

To Lawrence and all the other staff members of FSM,

I feel like I'm (and I KNOW I am) repeating what has already been said but I wanted to say this anyway. Too often everyone hears about the bad and not enough about the good. That goes for if you hear it on the news or if you're a shop owner and you're dealing with a complaining customer. What I wanted to do was put in my two cents and let you know how much I appreciate and LOVE the FSM magazine and web site. I think you guys have put together a wonderful thing. I think everything you've done so far has been very well thought out and I know you do things for a reason and you don't do something unless great thought has been put into it. I will miss the Off Topic forum because there were many thought-provoking topics. Plus, it also revealed a lot about the character and personalities of the members. However, I know that your decision to remove it was not a decision made lightly and without great considerations. I trust your decisions and I am sure it will only take this site to a higher level.

Thank you again for your dedication, your thoughts, and maybe the thing that means the most to me, your interaction and caring nature. You are all wise beyond your years.

Eric

Your court, your rules. But it sure is going to be more dull. I will continue to help anyone I can, but there is not a lot of personality in "What shade of O.D. should I use?" I'd rather the search worked better.

I am very disappointed.
I rarely got involved in the hot button discussions but the ones I was involved in didn't seem bad enought to warrant this, I thought we managed to discuss things like adults.

I rarely was able to talk to other members on a messenger service so it was the only way I could get to know the person behind the name and builds.

Now at least 4 valued and respected members are gone and they will be sorely missed. How many more will leave?

Was the option of Moderators even considered?

i posted in the other thread how sad i am. i read here two or more other members have either left or are considering leaving. friendship is something i cherish, i do not have many outside these forums as friends, not because i dont associate with people its just i dont choose to have them as friends. now i am losing the opportunity to check in with these friends everyday. my heart is heavy with sadness that it has come down to something like this.

i urge all that are considering leaving to reconsider. if nothing else to sit back and let the dust settle. the only constant in life is change. change on the forums was unavoidable. please allow yourself the chance to see how this change will affect the overall before taking the steps you are thinking about.

joe

To admin: Gentlemen, I enjoy this forum tremendously & believe that on the whole you guys do a great job. BUT I really think that you dropped the ball on this matter of eliminating the OT forum. What you have done here is to tell the
members (a) that a tiny minority can dictate to the majority (b) that you think that
too many of us members are too immature to be trusted with expressing our opinions freely, and (c) that a few hurt feelings are more important than freedom of speech. What would happen to our country if the rest of our society was dominated by concerns over avoiding frivolous or offensive speech? What would our media be like. our universities, our Congress? We've got to be bigger than our own personal sensitivities & realize that the right to self-expression far outweighs the pain of a few offended sensibilities. Even if all of the above mentioned members did leave (& I do regret that), that would still leave about 37,000 of us who still like--or at least tolerate--the OT forum
enough to stay. Do the math, gentlemen! I'll still visit this forum on a regular
basis because I joined it in the first place mainly for the modeling. But it will definitely be a less interesting place without the OT forum. Adult human beings ought to be able to talk about anything they please in this land of the free. Hopefully the discussion will always stay civilized, but even if we do have a verbal dust up from time to time & some bruised egos result.... well, that's life. In my opinion burning the OT soap boxes is certainly no way to deal with this issue. Thanks for listening.

QUOTE: Even if all of the above mentioned members did leave (& I do regret that), that would still leave about 37,000 of us who still like--or at least tolerate--the OT forum enough to stay

You know, that's exactly what's got me in an itch about this. I really hate the fact that some members have decided to leave, most notably ShermanFreak a.k.a. Robert. This gentleman was the first to welecome me to this forum, and was a willing help with anything I had to ask that he knew of! This is the biggest thing I regret. Don't get me wrong, I do not wish to belittle anyone else who wishes to leave, but hey, if you want to do it, go right ahead, it's really up to you to do the best for yourself. However, those decisions should not have such a direct, drastic, and quick impact on this great site. And a great site and community it was. The fact that all of us are expressing such great emotions over posted text should be testament to that. However, as of the quote above, there ARE thousands of members here, and I feel it an injustice to remove such a strong community tool that the O.T. forum was. There were many of us who used that forum on a regular basis, and it makes me very happy to see some of the higher post-count people verbalize against this decision. The O.T. forum was a wonderful thing, a place where one could go and take a break from the ordinary. I come here because of my interest in modeling, but I stay because of the people I enjoy interacting and being, on some vague virtual level, friends with. With my offline friends, I do not speak of the same thing constantly, nor do I relate everything in my speech to be within context of that one thing. It is absurd to think that any kind of strong community can be built on the premises that speech has to be within one and the same context all the time. That is what the O.T. forum was for; those of us who chose to share things about our selves/lives OUTSIDE of the sprectrum of modelling could go there. Go there I did, and a lot of fun I had. To a degree, I can understand the actions that were taken. And to an even greater degree I fully applaud and bow to the administrative team and the FSM staff for being so fully involved with this community. There are not too many places where you will find such a thing. However, I feel that you've taken a very basic human element and removed it from this site. The reason that the O.T. forum was such a great thing is because it allowed those of us who wished it to bond. Regardless of what could have been said or who pi$$3d who off, at the end, one undeniable fact was that we still had something in common; the love of models. This common bond is what allowed people to speak so freely, with or without fear of repercussion. All it would have taken was a little bit of thought to realize that we still have something in common, and we could still get along on that level. The forum discussions, and more notably, the games, were an amazing thing. I've not been to any other forum where I enjoyed forum games so much, simply because these games and discussions were reflective of the types of people who frequent this site. Now, I feel that I will not be able to connect on as much of a personal level as I did before, and that trully is my loss.

Excuse me, but after I entered my last post I realized I misspoke on something. I
referred to the handfull of members who have recently left, but I what I meant to say in place of this was those who would have left had the OT forum had stayed.
Sorry about the confusion.

I'm just going to add something solely for the purpose of playing devil's advocate. Remember, I'm jut throwing this out there. I have no opinion on this in any way. But the internet is a big thing. I'm sure if someone wanted to discuss gun control or unwed parents or treatment of war prisoners or anything other topic they could easily find a forum somewhere other than the Fine Scale Modeler web site. I've taken part in all those chat threads as well and I know that many of the discussions really got a bit hot-n-heavy. It was sad to see them take a turn for the worse but it also lifted my heart when I saw some people disagree and yet were still able to remain jovial and cordial. I thought that was gone from our society and it was good to see that it's still out there. I really enjoyed the OT forum so at this point I'm a bit sad and also a bit glad that it's gone. Maybe it's time to get back to the point of the web site and that is to foster the world of model building.

But getting back to my point, if I want to get info on models then I'll come to the FSM web site. If I want to discuss issues on guns then maybe I'll check out the NRA site. If I want info on Harley Davidsons (does anyone remember how that degenerated into some bad mud slinging?) then I'll browse for sights about motorcycles. I don't think it's about free speech or censorship. I think it's about producing a site about models. Hence the "M" part in FSM.

I agree with what everyone above had to say regarding how it was nice to interact outside the world of models. Me? I'm a creature of habit. I fear change. But lets see where this new road takes us. Let's see how it works before we bash it.

I'd also like to add that four or five select members does not make a great web site. What was the number of contributors to this site? Something like 37,000? We ALL make it a great place to be. I think it lessens the value of the contributions to all the others if we deify only a few.

Eric

Is this beginning to sound like the old OT. Maybe it needs to be locked and deleted.

I echo J Hulk and Fighting Joe's sentiments in that I hope that members who are thinking of leaving to please reconsider. We have lost enough good people on both sides of this argument and need not lose more. We have a great site here...we have great forums and most of all...great members. Lets stick together on this and keep the future very bright for FSM.

Regards, Dan

QUOTE: Originally posted by wayne baker Is this beginning to sound like the old OT. Maybe it needs to be locked and deleted.

Fade to Black...

Per Dan, Brian and Joe, I think it's time to hang tough and keep FSM as the vibrant, active force in the modelling community that it has been. We gain nothing by leaving, and everything by staying and see how we can work constructively to keep the standard of excellence here high.

I think this is going to improve the atmosphere of the forum. Yes, I brought up some of the problems that I saw and my intent wasn't to get rid of the Off Topics forum as much as to get folks to thinking about what they're saying on here.

Lawrence mentioned that everyone should take a "refresher" look at the Forum Guidlines and I agree. It mentions that you should not say something here that you wouldn't say to someones face. There are 37,000 faces you're speaking to on this board. Some of the comments were not kind to others. I have my views as much as the next guy, but I don't air them all on my modeling board.

A few mentioned that this is going to change the forum...and I agree. I think it's going to change back to what it was a while back when there was no annimosity being generated amongst all the friendships that had grown here. In other words it's going to change back to the "old" FSM board we used to have that everyone enjoyed so much.

And if you read the Forum Guidlines closely you'll see that they are not trying to shut down the fun and even the silly posts we used to have. Read the last guidline...."Frivolous and pointless jokes are welcome. Healthy, humorous debate and banter is actively encouraged!" It is a guidline but it doesn't say to not have fun.

I think the FSM staff did the right thing because if you have guidlines, they need to be adhered to. Someone will bend them or break them at some time or another and not neccesarily on purpose. Lets help out the staff by getting back to what we came here for, models, fun and friendship.

Eric

Amen, Erush. Very well said.

Erush,

With due respect, the same paragraph could still be interpreted by the 37,000 members in relatively different ways. I I believe that's why this happened. As we are all different anyway. That's is why I am requesting Lawrence and Dave for clarifications (or to break it down to do's and don't if possible) to limit the possibilities of members misinterpreting the said guidelines. Or is it too much to ask?

If one member posts something that he felt is within the "guidelines" but the same post is deleted because the moderators thought otherwise, the member could be offended and we will be back to square one.

In the same manner word games are no longer allowed but what about picture games, number games, guess who's this WWII character is game, tell me what this kit is and it's yours game?

Yes we can start a new but I believe that we need a clearer set of guidelines to start with this time or we will all be going around in circles.

Interesting what can happen in a week when you're away!

I think a number of good points have been made by all sides but I suspect most (all?) of us joined with the primary reason to discuss modelling related issues and to further our capabilities in the hobby we enjoy so much. To me in this Forum the OT was just a minor thing for a bit of light relief. I for one have no problem in adhering to new rules for the OT replacement because my primary focus still remains the ability to discuss modelling related questions, comments, concerns etc. I have no doubt that the odds and ends will still provide a measure of light relief . I have difficulty in understanding why someone would leave because the OT was redefined and I would therefore question their commitment to the original ideals of the foum however its personnel choice.

Rules change, that's life. Debate about change is always healthy and should never be discouraged. Its us the users that eventually decide on the fate of the Foum by our decisions to stay or go and each of us will make that decision based on our own perceptions, circumstances etc. I support the Administrators in their changes and look forward to a just a healthy and vibrant Forum as we had before.

I see more good, constructive commentary here in the last day. I'm still up against a couple of important deadlines (and Paul Boyer keeps giving me Workbench Reviews to proofread!), so I won't be able to respond to some of the very legitimate questions members have raised until later today.