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WHY?!

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  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: maine
WHY?!
Posted by ilikespagetti on Monday, May 7, 2007 3:34 PM
I was just wondering why so many people are being banned for disagreeing with the finescale staff. When signing up here I never read in the code of conduct that having your own personal opinion would result in banning.
I am a man, But I can change. If I have to....I guess...
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 5:03 PM

You said a Mouth Full !!!!!!!

Bud

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: maine
Posted by ilikespagetti on Monday, May 7, 2007 5:05 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't be suprised if my question results in banning.
I am a man, But I can change. If I have to....I guess...
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, May 7, 2007 5:40 PM

Good question, and I'm sure you'll not see any answers. Though I would squawk mightily if this question gets anyone banned!

Now I'm backing away slowly from this thread... Sign - Dots [#dots]

So long folks!

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Reno, NV
Posted by espins1 on Monday, May 7, 2007 5:54 PM
I'm not touching this one, although it is a shame to see so many friends gone.  Taped Shut [XX]

Scott Espin - IPMS Reno High Rollers  Geeked My Reviews 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 6:16 PM

I know what you mean Scott

 Bud

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: maine
Posted by ilikespagetti on Monday, May 7, 2007 6:24 PM
It's funny to see how many people are interseted in this but yet don't want to get into it so they don't get in trouble. Now correct me if I'm worng but that says something is seriously wrong with the way this forum is run.
I am a man, But I can change. If I have to....I guess...
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Monday, May 7, 2007 6:48 PM

 espins1 wrote:
I'm not touching this one, although it is a shame to see so many friends gone.  Taped Shut [XX]

Sign - Ditto [#ditto]

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, May 7, 2007 7:24 PM

 ilikespagetti wrote:
It's funny to see how many people are interseted in this but yet don't want to get into it so they don't get in trouble. Now correct me if I'm worng but that says something is seriously wrong with the way this forum is run.

I'm not "really" worried about getting into trouble. I think you're asking a good question and I don't think you're wrong, at all. Wink [;)]

So long folks!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 7:37 PM

As for me,  I got BANNED 1 time already so I don't care what happeneds now BUT I still want to know WHY we all got Benned ?

Bud

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Reno, NV
Posted by espins1 on Monday, May 7, 2007 8:07 PM

hmmmm.... apparently a lot of decent people got banned.  Received a bunch of e-mails from some of them today.  I'm really puzzled as to why?  Confused [%-)]

Scott Espin - IPMS Reno High Rollers  Geeked My Reviews 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Alabama USA
Posted by davew6003 on Monday, May 7, 2007 8:19 PM
I have noticed alot of the guys that used to be here are not around anymore?
  • Member since
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  • From: Fukuoka Japan / Brisbane AUS.
Posted by Chris_in_Japan on Monday, May 7, 2007 8:41 PM

Well, my only curse is speaking my mind and telling the odd trouble maker to take hike.. Never complained to a mod once, as I believe we are all grown men (and women) here, but it seems that the mods take the trouble makers seriously when they themselves stir trouble and complain.. Its a shame, because alot of those guys gone are my brothers, and the board is worse off without them!

Its also a shame that alot of people get singled out when they speak their mind, as others are too scared of being banned when joining them and helping out... I definately know how that feels!

Chris

On the bench:

                          1/48 RAAF 3 Sqn F/A-18B

                          1/150 /1/160 N Scale Japanese Rail diorama.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 9:05 PM
I know from what I have heard that most of the ones that have been banned are not bannde for life. They have gotten e-mails from this site that said they could come back in the year 2059. I will keep my My 2 cents [2c] to my self and keep my Taped Shut [XX] on this one.
  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: maine
Posted by ilikespagetti on Monday, May 7, 2007 9:17 PM

from what has been sent to me, the year was 2159 which might as well be banned for life.  I hate how this place used to be seen as a "family" most people here still do see each other as extended family and some people have closer friends here than they do at home. The only thing that ruined that was Pat Hawkey's editorial.  The way I see it is that if everyone was fine until that point and where so many people agreed that HE was a problem. He should be the only one getting banned. It doesn't seem like the mods here are taking banning seriously with the "2159" date it just seems to be  a "haha" especially when the reason for it is other. It seems like we're all grown men/women here except for the moderators.

So, Mods I DARE YOU, I dare all of you to grow up. In the very least give people reasons for their banning.

I am a man, But I can change. If I have to....I guess...
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 7, 2007 9:29 PM
You are right about the year it is 2159 got fast typing and messed up. Sorry for that but I do agree it is down right wrong to bann the for that long.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:23 AM

 ilikespagetti wrote:
"family" most people here still do see each other as extended family and some people have closer friends here than they do at home.

Now That's What I am Talking About !

Most if not all of you do seem like Family to me and I wish all this Banned never happened.

I would LOVE this to be the way it use to be.

Bud My 2 cents [2c]

  • Member since
    September 2004
Posted by Amanda Bothe on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:06 AM

We encourage civil discourse about modeling and modeling related topics. After all, that's why we're here - to further the modeling community.

However, discourse that results in unneccessary conflicts or flames will be removed, as will members who repeatedtly feed the flames. Conflict is not conducive to the community we all wish to share. 

The following is taken directly from our Forum Etiquette guidelines:

FORUM ETIQUETTE

The purpose the FineScale Modeler forums is to provide a means to share thoughts and ideas about the hobby and to grow the modeling community. Topics, threads, and posts that do not further discussion on the hobby or the modeling community can be moderated at the administrators’ discretion.

We expect our users to maintain high standards of civility. Offensive language and discourse, name-calling, and personal attacks are not acceptable and will be moderated according to the administrators’ discretion.

Remember the Human
- The other people on this forum are real people, and they have feelings. Please respect those people; they are here to help you.

Adhere to the same standards of behavior online that you follow in real life - If you wouldn't say it to someone's face then don't say it on the forums.

Share expert knowledge - If you benefit from the information on the forum, pay back the community by assisting others, too.

Help keep flame wars under control – Report inappropriate behavior to the forum administrators.

Be forgiving of other people's mistakes
- Nobody's perfect.

Be patient
- All the participants of this forum are using the forum and participating in discussions on their own time.

Give feedback - If someone helps you by answering your question, try to add a follow-up response letting them know if it worked or not.

 

Amanda Bothe Assistant Editor, FSM
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 11:05 AM

Amanda,

Thanks for the clarification of the forum etiquette, sometimes we all need reminders of polite behaviour.

I know some, (well most!) of the individuals that have been banned, and while I can see the reasons why they may have required disciplinary action, I consider banning to be a bit harsh in light of some of the reasons they've been banned. The bans they've received last until the year 2159, which is not only a ban for life, but a ban far beyond the average life span of anybody. Nobody alive today can possibly be expected to survive the length of the ban.

They have also never received (at least to my knowledge) a reason for the ban. I'm sure the attitude is that they should be expected to figure it out for themselves, but in order to  effectively discipline a person, a reasonable explanation and possibility to make amends is warranted. I will direct your attention to items 1 and 5 of the etiquette list, oh let's through in  6 & 7, as well!

I am involved in many different forums, and some of them can be quite petty, and some quite forgiving. I would hope that FSM falls into the latter category, rather than the former.

Respectfully,

Bill Grigg

So long folks!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 11:55 AM

If y'll are forgiving, I hope 1 day that my other account can be unbanned.

Bud

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: maine
Posted by ilikespagetti on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 12:33 PM
I don't get why finescale seems to think they're the country club of modelling forums. I have been here for years and have had one warning. However if you guys are so insistant in having a great community but yet banning half of it because of something stupid, if it was that of name calling a permanant ban is not warranted, maybe a two week ban is.
I am a man, But I can change. If I have to....I guess...
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 12:37 PM

I concur with Bill Grigg that the level of discipline, in some cases, seems harsh. However, apparently "banning," as practiced here, only means that the banned person has to set up a new account, loosing post counts, etc. Such a loss of online persona, however, fails in one of the requirements of public discipline. The offender simply disappears, possibly to be replaced by the same person with a different handle, and no one is the wiser. The offender has been punished, and is seen to be punished. But that should not be the primary objective of discipline. The primary objective of discipline is to persuade the offender to mend their ways, and this course only increases their ire, instills a possible desire for revenge, provides an impetus for further bad behavior, and creates an atmosphere of resentment. For the desired result to occur, the offender must thoroughly understand the reason(s) for their punishment. As far as I have heard, that has not been done. Furthermore, such explanation should be public, so that it can be seen by all and sundry that justice has been done, or at least thoroughly attempted. This has a further beneficial result: Having one's conduct paraded before the whole community creates considerable pressure to conform to the accepted community standards. Indeed, it has been demonstrated that such social pressure is perhaps the greatest deterent to bad conduct, and only fails with persons who have no desire to be part of a society. Those individuals are cast out, perhaps by rule or law, but always by the society itself.

I illustrate with a recent example from these forums: I was recently insulted by another member who used innuendo to do it. I said as much, and they confirmed the insult. I debated ripping their virtual ears off in an entirely civil way, but decided against it. My reputation here is well established, and although I may have made a fool of myself, he had definitely made an *** of himself, in public. No further action on my part, or anyone else, was required. 

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Fukuoka Japan / Brisbane AUS.
Posted by Chris_in_Japan on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 4:55 PM

I like the reply with the rules and regulations.. That just means that no reasons are needed nor will you get them..

Just read the guidlines and this is the way it will work.. I have never bought a FSM mag and never will.. I didnt join this site because of the magazine, I joined because of the people that were here.. After visiting many other un-ruly boards, this board is not a credit to the FSM. Its a credit to the great caliber of people that participate on it..

If they want people like Hawkeye, then so be it.. But I have made friends on this board that can build equal, if not better than him. So that means that I wont be reading anytime soon.. I prefer looking at what everyone else is building...

Chris 

On the bench:

                          1/48 RAAF 3 Sqn F/A-18B

                          1/150 /1/160 N Scale Japanese Rail diorama.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: White Mountains, NH
Posted by jhande on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 11:38 PM
 Triarius wrote:

I concur with Bill Grigg that the level of discipline, in some cases, seems harsh... 

The primary objective of discipline is to persuade the offender to mend their ways,

...the offender must thoroughly understand the reason(s) for their punishment. As far as I have heard, that has not been done. Furthermore, such explanation should be public, so that it can be seen by all and sundry that justice has been done, or at least thoroughly attempted.

Thumbs Up [tup]

I have been MIA for awhile but have caught wind of some people getting banned from here. For what I do not know and from what I understand, neither do they.

I have been an administrator on a few forums for some time now. Each forum having it's own set of rules and code of etiquette. Unfortunately there has been times that a few members needed to be banned. But only after the offending post had been edited or deleted and the member warned, both publicly on the forum and through email. If such behavior continued, I donned my steel-toe'd boots. There were occasions when a second chance was granted and the ban lifted. It is also important to place blame where blame is do. Should a member get banned for replying in defense of one self, or should the one who antagonizes the situation?

I used to enjoy coming to this forum. It was not only for gaining knowledge of the hobby, but to share all experiences with fellow modelers. Online friendships were made, old as well as new members helping each other. Now it seems like new members asking the same questions over and over without doing a search first or even saying - "thanks for the help". Quite a few of the older members seem to have disappeared. That is sad too, because they really made the forum feel like a fun place you wanted to visit.

As far as a connection between the forums and magazines of Kalmbach Publishing? I don't buy the magazines, well once in a blue moon I'll purchase Scale Auto. It's strange, I'm an auto modeling buff and preferred this forum over the one at Scale Auto. I even joined some airbrushing forums but still found myself visiting here most. Guess I'll be giving the other forums another look.

My 2 cents [2c]

-- Jim --
"Put the pedal down & shake the ground!"

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by cassibill on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 2:35 PM
I will be blunt, but try to remain civil. What community? When I started college, this place was a refuge for me. It was a welcome anchor and distraction.  I made friends and was always eager to get back to building and the forum. It helped rebuild my interest in models. I watched and learned. I helped when I could.  I learned about the hobby and history, but community as well.  There was a time when you could find a willing ear and a kind soul here in addition to the tips and a shared wealth of spares and references.  I remember a bottle of Future being sent to Poland to help a guy out.  I remember asking about sets that had grenades in them.  ShermanFreak sent some to me instead.  I've scanned more them one pic or ref for people.  But more then that, it was the people.  Is there anyone left here that remembers HistoryinScale or his accident?  I remember people sending cards and kits and cash to help his family.  People actully went to visit him in the hospital and help do stuff around the house that he couldn't.  There was a time when people had friends or family let us know when someone was sick, hurt, or died. Thing was then people actually NOTICED when someone was missing.  People let us know when they were going on trips or moving so we wouldn't worry.  So, someone expresses a contrary opinion.  We discuss it, some more agressively then others.  If I see language that is improper, I tell people.  Warn people and others will go along with it if it is right.  Civil wars come from the abuse of power. So people are expressing their opinion and getting banned, but I've noticed some people leaving on their own or at least not being active.  Some people are saying that they are upset and others are simply withdrawing.  We are supposed to respond by posting in a manner consistant with face to face interaction, however I can't slap someone in the face when I've been insulted here though, even if I feel that I HAVE BEEN. I've tried to be the lady I was raised to be, but I'm to the point of tears because my friends are being taken from me for expressing an opinion contrary to the powers that be.  Aren't soldiers dying in the Middle East to end that?  People are being banned instead of people trying to fix it what is so wrong. How about asking people to write rebuttals to the article that started some of this and picking the best one or two to run in the Ed. Column?  I have very few ties here anymore, but I stay to help people and because I don't allow myself to be bullied.  Let's fix it or tear it down. I'd like to be able to see a mod online without wondering what is being locked or who is being banned again.  Would you like to join the Ladies' Group Build, Ms. Bothe?  I haven't see you comment on it.

cdw My life flashes before my eyes and it mostly my life flashing before my eyes!!!Big Smile The 1/144 scale census and message board: http://144scalelist.freewebpage.org/index.html

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: maine
Posted by ilikespagetti on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 3:57 PM
I have been here for 4 years, the first 2 were the best, once the staff changed it started going down hill.
I am a man, But I can change. If I have to....I guess...
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Mist086 on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 4:30 PM
This is the main reason i'm not on this board as much anymore.  I'm looking for crits and get the standard "That's great!" line.  People are too afraid on this board to say anything.  I got jumped in a PM because i said something was a little to weathered for my taste.  The important words in that is MY TASTE!  i got jumped because it wasn't helpful.  Well the same person told me the same thing when i posted my 1st jet back into the hobby.  Well so be it.  When my freinds started leaving and getting banned, well i was on this board for them so i followed.  I found them elsewhere and well......Until this changes back, or gets better, that's where i'm gonna stay.  Can't believe most of this started because of 1 person
  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Fukuoka Japan / Brisbane AUS.
Posted by Chris_in_Japan on Friday, May 11, 2007 8:00 AM

Well, speaking your mind is something that you do at your peril it seems?

I dont agree with people being nasty, but if you know that someone may have not gotten the result you think they should have, and if you feel that you may be able to point them in the right direction. Then telling someone something is great when it isnt is more of a set back for that person than actually helping them improve..

I also believe that you should dissagree as much as you can.. Not to cause trouble, but to express your own opinion.. There are way too many yes men on this board and it really is a shame.. A little individuality is what this board lacks at times I think..

Chris 

On the bench:

                          1/48 RAAF 3 Sqn F/A-18B

                          1/150 /1/160 N Scale Japanese Rail diorama.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Friday, May 11, 2007 10:19 AM

Yes Chris!  Tongue [:P]

This isn't so much about people mindlessly saying "That's Great" as opposed to not being allowed to express themselves more freely. While I agree with keeping swearing, religion, and politics off the boards, people have been censored for expressing their opinion of the magazine and editorial policies. And that gets people riled up!

Yes, banning people is at the sole discretion of the admins of the forums. But since this is a self-moderated forum, and the admins only step in when there is a problem, many of us feel that some slack would be beneficial to all. Not all complaints are valid, as not all problems are banning offences. All many of us are asking is for a warning to be both publically and privately posted (Public: "Posts like this are not tolerated for such and such reasons", and remove the offending parts, not the whole thread; Private: "Do this again, Bucko and you're history"). I think this would go a long way to keeping the peace, and keeping the members at the same time.

I have had my own words slightly altered by someone (Amanda, is that you? Wink [;)]), so that the post and thread are not lost, and yet the intent of the post is left intact. This is judicious pruning, and well appreciated.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Reno, NV
Posted by espins1 on Friday, May 11, 2007 10:32 AM

Slightly off the main topic, but this has come up in a few posts in this thread.

What's wrong with saying someone's build looks great when in our eyes it looks great?  Is that not expressing our opinion?  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Greatness is also relative.  I consider myself to be an ok builder and still have a lot to learn.  So to me, much of what is posted here really looks great to me.  I'm not going to go out of my way to scrutinize someone's pics to see if I can find something wrong, that's just silly.  And when I post pics of my builds, trust me, I'm totally aware of the flaws that are there long before someone points them out.  It's amazing what you can see with a zoomed in digital photo that you really wouldn't notice with the naked eye.  Shock [:O]

Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing is also silly, unless my opinion is truly different than the person's that I'm responding too. 

One thing that people need to remember is that it's ok to disagree and express your opinion, but you should exercise some social skills and discretion and not personally bash people or say things to embarrass them.  Attacking someone in a post is no more acceptable than verbally bashing a co-worker in front of everyone else.  I think a lot of the "arguments" should be done in PM or private e-mails.  And what happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt?  I think some of our more cantankerous members are quick to jump to conclusions as to someone's intent and have a tendency to escalate a discussion into a negative mud slinging fest when there is no need to.  My 2 cents [2c]

I do agree that it would be nice to get warnings, or a heads up from the admins when something we've posted is out of line.  It's easy to forget the rules sometimes because we get caught up in the "passions" of the hobby.  I would even suggest using a temporary suspension if necessary before resorting to a total ban.  Confused [%-)]

Scott Espin - IPMS Reno High Rollers  Geeked My Reviews 

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