WHY?!

Bgrigg wrote:

<snip> All many of us are asking is for a warning to be both publically and privately posted (Public: "Posts like this are not tolerated for such and such reasons", and remove the offending parts, not the whole thread; Private: "Do this again, Bucko and you're history"). I think this would go a long way to keeping the peace, and keeping the members at the same time.

This takes a surprising amount of time, and that is one thing the forum administrators, being full time magazine editors, do not have. I have, in the past, suggested that first level forum moderators be selected from the membership at large. These are generally volunteers chosen on the basis of a long history on the forum, and a reputation for keeping a relatively cool head while attempting to pour oil on the waters of controversy. This is what I did when I was a forum administrator, and most of the time my choices worked out.

But that also takes time, because the chief forum "cop" has to monitor the first level moderators—Qui custodiet custodies, ipsos.  This may be the reason that the FSM staff has been reluctant to implement such a policy.

Bgrigg wrote:

I have had my own words slightly altered by someone (Amanda, is that you? ), so that the post and thread are not lost, and yet the intent of the post is left intact. This is judicious pruning, and well appreciated.

That, too, takes time, and has to be handled with great diplomacy. When I did such a thing, what I had changed, why I had changed it, when, and my identity as editor became a prominent part of the message. A copy of the altered message, in toto, was also sent both as a personal message and an e-mail to the person whose post was modified. This often included a more detailed discussion of the changes, and any other necessary message. Again, such activities take a lot of time.

But I still think it would greatly enhance the forums. Are you listening, FSM staff?

 

Folks,

This forum is no country club; with almost 40,000 members, we're hardly exclusive. We're open to anyone who's enthusiastic about modeling. You should, however, know there's the equivalent of a "We have the right to refuse service" sign over the counter -- members who are here to cause trouble are going to be asked to leave. I don't like locking accounts, and things very rarely get to that point. Thankfully, the vast majority of our worldwide members manage to get along with one another.

Anyone who has questions about their account can contact me directly at editor@finescale.com.

Thanks,

Matt Usher
Editor, FineScale Modeler

I agree Ross, it does take a great deal of time to peruse the forums for any and all unfavorable post. The suggestion to assign volunteer moderators seems to be a nice idea. But I'm sure FSM wants to keep the behind the scenes access to staffed personnel and not take a chance with assigning  editing privileges to those from the "outside". Just my guess...  

What worked fairly well with a couple of my forums - was to assign moderators to different sections of the forum. That way it was not "so" time consuming for just one or two administrators/moderators. If a moderator was unsure of a topic of discussion or the correct steps to take, they would refer back to the administrator. Possibly FSM can incorporate a similar strategy? Also having frequent participation on the forum from staff is usually beneficial. It helps in steering certain post in, let's say, the correct direction and allows members to feel more comfortable towards the staff. When staff is usually "behind-the-scenes" the general population of members tend to feel - "this is us" and "they are them". Instead the staff should be "one of us".

As far as disagreeing with someone and their post, diplomacy should be used by all. You certainly do not want to take away someone's rights to speak their mind or voice their opinions. And this holds true for speaking both ways. Forums usually consist of members from all walks of life and different levels of etiquette. We all need to keep in mind that when we post something, we don't need to "lash-out" to hurt someone. Think before hitting the Post button, "would we want someone writing about me like this?"

With regard to offering benificial input pertaining to someone's "looky what I just built" pics. One has to be careful, not just because of the staff, but because of the persons feelings. Few things I think to consider before offering "tips" are - does the person really want to hear constuctive criticism? Did the person just start out in the hobby and this is their first or second model? Maybe the person has been building and posting for awhile and the same mistakes are made with each model? Have five people look at pics of the same model and you are apt to receive five different suggestions. But when offering advice it is best to do it as "nicely" as possible. We certainly don't want to hurt anyones feelings and possibly chase them away from the forum or worse, the hobby.

Just my worth of rambling...

 

In all honesty selecting  a senior member that has been here for a long time and has a good reputation as a moderator would be better for the forum, usually we're all on here more often and really seem to care about the hobby. You never see a mod join a group build here or share their works in progress.  I didn't create this thread to cause trouble I simply miss the way the forum used to be. Apparantly everyone else does too.

Matthew Usher wrote:

Folks, This forum is no country club; with almost 40,000 members, we're hardly exclusive. We're open to anyone who's enthusiastic about modeling. You should, however, know there's the equivalent of a "We have the right to refuse service" sign over the counter -- members who are here to cause trouble are going to be asked to leave. I don't like locking accounts, and things very rarely get to that point. Thankfully, the vast majority of our worldwide members manage to get along with one another. Anyone who has questions about their account can contact me directly at editor@finescale.com. Thanks, Matt Usher Editor, FineScale Modeler

Matt, 

Thanks for posting in this thread, it's nice to see senior (meaning executive, not old!) staff taking an interest in the forums.

There may be 40,000 members (actually 37451 as of right "now"), however I bet only 200 (or less) post on a regular basis, and some of us (yours truly) post on a daily, if not hourly, basis. So there is a fair bit of exclusivity, whether that is the intent or not. Almost all of us are enthusiastic modelers, and some of us are more enthusiastic!

I fully agree with the "right to refuse service", but I haven't seen so much "asked to leave", as gone in a heartbeat. There is a vast gulf between a heads up and a boot out the door. All we are asking is for a heads up first. If it does come down to a banning, how about a time limited banning policy? One, two or more weeks, depending on the severity. I acknowledge that takes time from your "regular" work day, and possibly cuts into your off hours, as well. I would like you to know that I truly appreciate when you (and Amanda, and Aaron) post in threads, and even initiate them. Makes us all feel like we are part of a family, however dysfunctional it is!

I think a lot of the bad blood that is happening stems from the Pat Hawkey thread and editorial. Pat seemed to rub some of us the wrong way, and tempers got a bit hotter than I think any of us wished for, and that includes some of the banned members. Modelers seem to be a proud lot, and many have also served in the military in many capacities. This has given many an edge that tends not to get duller over the years, and this makes them a lot more vocal in their opposition than most civilians get. And that doesn't always play well on the forums.

I guess what I'm looking for is some forgive and forget, perhaps a touch of let bygones be bygones, and a dash of turning the other cheek, or looking the other way if that is what it takes. Some of us miss those who are banned, and we're a bit unsure as to the future of the forums. There has already been a huge schism happen, and I'm not too happy about living through another. 

Respectfully,

Bill Grigg 

Matthew Usher wrote:

Folks, This forum is no country club; with almost 40,000 members, we're hardly exclusive. We're open to anyone who's enthusiastic about modeling. You should, however, know there's the equivalent of a "We have the right to refuse service" sign over the counter -- members who are here to cause trouble are going to be asked to leave. I don't like locking accounts, and things very rarely get to that point. Thankfully, the vast majority of our worldwide members manage to get along with one another. Anyone who has questions about their account can contact me directly at editor@finescale.com. Thanks, Matt Usher Editor, FineScale Modeler

Thanks for chiming in Matt.
Hopefully I don't get seen as a trouble maker for this.

I haven't been active much here lately and missed out on the fuss and muss. But what I have heard and gathered is that some long time member(s) have been banned for what I assume a rebuttal of inappropriate postings. It is also my understanding that the people in question were not "warned" of the consequences of those postings - being banned. Also some of the member(s) where not here to cause trouble, at least they normally didn't in the past. I apologize if I have my facts incorrect.

What I think the meaning of this thread was about, is why was there no such warning?
I think the staff has avoided a direct answer to such question.
All forums have the right to "refuse service" and to "ask member(s) to leave" or even ban members. I don't think this is the issue at hand. I think the issue that some members are having a difficult time understanding, is the part of asking a member to leave. That would constitute a warning in itself but does not seem to be the case.

I think a direct answer as to "why" such member(s) were not "asked to leave" or "warned of being banned" was not implemented but rather just banned, would settle some of this commotion?

Just my understanding of what is going on and trying to put a resolve to this issue.

 

I'm glad to help; and I'm sorry I haven't been able to respond before today. I've been on the road most of the week, and away from the computer.

None of the moderators is trying to avoid any of the questions you have posed -- what I'm trying to do is avoid airing any dirty laundry on the forum. I don't want anyone to feel like they're being held up for public ridicule, and I certainly don't want to embarrass anyone. I'm happy to discuss the general mechanics of how the forum works here, but I'm not going to go over the specific details of someone's personal account in front of everyone. I don't think that's fair.

Let me put it this way: If I was Member A and I made a mistake and was banned, I wouldn't want the details spread out in front of everyone the forum, especially if it was a mistake I regretted. (I know I've been too quick on the keyboard from time to time, and I think a lot of you can identify with that "I wish I hadn't posted that!" feeling.) That's why I included my personal e-mail in my last posting. If anyone wants to talk about their account, that's the way to do it. E-mail me at editor@finescale.com.

Make sense? Sound OK?

Matt Usher
Editor, FSM

But from the people that have been banned recently haven't even gotten a reason. it doesn't have to be public but atleast let the banned people know why. when a someone is banned for what they see as no reason, they usually make other accounts just to start trouble. in which case doesn't help anyone.

ilikespagetti wrote:

But from the people that have been banned recently haven't even gotten a reason. it doesn't have to be public but atleast let the banned people know why. when a someone is banned for what they see as no reason, they usually make other accounts just to start trouble. in which case doesn't help anyone.

I try to stay out of these things but....this is what I am hearing from the "banned" people as well. I dont personaly need to hear an explanation but i think they deserve one.

I think I've made it clear how to reach me.

Matt

Message received loud and clear, Matt!

I know most of the sordid details, and will contact you privately if I require more information. I need to think on whether or not to proceed further.

No hard feelings, and I hope that is reciprocated!

I bid you a wonderful weekend!

Bill

Bgrigg wrote:

Message received loud and clear, Matt! I know most of the sordid details, and will contact you privately if I require more information. I need to think on whether or not to proceed further. No hard feelings, and I hope that is reciprocated! I bid you a wonderful weekend! Bill

Dito, I think I see your point now. Thanks for responding.

Matthew Usher wrote:

I think I've made it clear how to reach me. Matt

Yes Matt you have. I see your point well and agree with it. This is not the place to air the laundry.

However, the banning was done by you, or someone on the staff, so why does the banned person need to contact you to find out why they were banned? Shouldn't you or the person(s) that did the ban send that member an email? I would think that to be appropriate, wouldn't you?

 I think that is what the questions are really all about.

I sincerely doubt in the most recent cases that there should be any question as to why the accounts were locked. It takes quite a bit of effort for a forum member to get an account locked, and we had some behavior that was blantly outside the lines.

In any case, all the posts and threads are archived, so it's pretty easy to pull up the archive and show a forum member exactly what the problem was.

Matt

DrewH wrote:

Matthew Usher wrote: I think I've made it clear how to reach me. Matt Yes Matt you have. I see your point well and agree with it. This is not the place to air the laundry. However, the banning was done by you, or someone on the staff, so why does the banned person need to contact you to find out why they were banned? Shouldn't you or the person(s) that did the ban send that member an email? I would think that to be appropriate, wouldn't you?  I think that is what the questions are really all about.

Thank you Matt for responding.

I've always wondered why the small, sleepy little Sci-fi forum always attracts so much discontent. I stopped using it back in 2004 because it feels so much more hostile than the rest of the site forums. I do not think the SF forum is more hostile than some other sites, but it seems out of place compared to other FSM forums.

Amanda Bothe wrote:

We encourage civil discourse about modeling and modeling related topics. After all, that's why we're here - to further the modeling community. However, discourse that results in unneccessary conflicts or flames will be removed, as will members who repeatedtly feed the flames. Conflict is not conducive to the community we all wish to share.  The following is taken directly from our Forum Etiquette guidelines: FORUM ETIQUETTE The purpose the FineScale Modeler forums is to provide a means to share thoughts and ideas about the hobby and to grow the modeling community. Topics, threads, and posts that do not further discussion on the hobby or the modeling community can be moderated at the administrators’ discretion. We expect our users to maintain high standards of civility. Offensive language and discourse, name-calling, and personal attacks are not acceptable and will be moderated according to the administrators’ discretion. Remember the Human - The other people on this forum are real people, and they have feelings. Please respect those people; they are here to help you. Adhere to the same standards of behavior online that you follow in real life - If you wouldn't say it to someone's face then don't say it on the forums. Share expert knowledge - If you benefit from the information on the forum, pay back the community by assisting others, too. Help keep flame wars under control – Report inappropriate behavior to the forum administrators. Be forgiving of other people's mistakes - Nobody's perfect. Be patient - All the participants of this forum are using the forum and participating in discussions on their own time. Give feedback - If someone helps you by answering your question, try to add a follow-up response letting them know if it worked or not.

Given the above forum ettiquette that Amanda reminded all of us about.....

Anyone besides me find it ironic that a bunch of longtime contributors and friends to these forums, who were upset by an editorial and maybe crossed a few lines expressing their feelings were banned, yet trolls are allowed to bulldoze all over peoples WIP threads, insult people, spew nothing but negative disruptive comments and violate the spirit of all the above guidelines are allowed to continue to to leave a trail of dead burnt posters in their wake?  

Matt and Amanda, any chance these rules can be applied evenly and not just cited out of convenience to justify banning a few select individuals? 

I apologize for even bringing this up, but many of us are getting frustrated, with one individual in particular.  If you don't know who it is, please PM me and I'll be more than happy to assist. 

espins1 wrote:

Given the above forum ettiquette that Amanda reminded all of us about..... Anyone besides me find it ironic that a bunch of longtime contributors and friends to these forums, who were upset by an editorial and maybe crossed a few lines expressing their feelings were banned, yet trolls are allowed to bulldoze all over peoples WIP threads, insult people, spew nothing but negative disruptive comments and violate the spirit of all the above guidelines are allowed to continue to to leave a trail of dead burnt posters in their wake?   Matt and Amanda, any chance these rules can be applied evenly and not just cited out of convenience to justify banning a few select individuals?  I apologize for even bringing this up, but many of us are getting frustrated, with one individual in particular.  If you don't know who it is, please PM me and I'll be more than happy to assist.

You shouldnt feel the need to appologize for raising any matter.. I had to put up with a certain persons abuse via pm's, but then made the mistake of having a go back at him on the boards..

 It was brought to my attention that because it was pm's then it is assumed by mods as to being fair game.. The fact that you are having to deal with someone actually in threads then would suggest that these people are given free rain to say and do what they like, yet when some of us end up having enough and blow a cog. We get banned!..

In my situation, my brain explosion didnt help, and I am totally disgusted in the way I delt with it. I was very angry at seeing this person play victim while I was being made out as a trouble maker..... My thinking is, that if this person is allowed to troll the boards, then I should have my original user name and post count re-listed. If not he should go... You as a decent member shouldnt have to ask mods to do their jobs, and alot of great members should still be here with us where they belong!

The only reason I joined FSM was because of the kind nature and lack of ego's that the members had here, and I never had a problem or curse word to say to anyone until the end of last year.. Its a shame that a small few have been given respite over the good members, and I can now understand why they simply throw their arms and wonder whats happening around here..

Chris

Holy Cow Chris, you managed to get yourself banned?

I have to admit you lost it in that TOS Enterprise thread. You should have reported the git to the admins, but it looks like you were beat to the punch.

Matt, Chris is a good'un, and sounds like he admits wrongdoing, and he does deserve a second chance. What say you? 

Bgrigg wrote:

Holy Cow Chris, you managed to get yourself banned? I have to admit you lost it in that TOS Enterprise thread. You should have reported the git to the admins, but it looks like you were beat to the punch. Matt, Chris is a good'un, and sounds like he admits wrongdoing, and he does deserve a second chance. What say you?

I usually keep out of these things, but I gotta say, for as long as I've been a member here, Chris has been one of the more helpful and level-headed members on these forums.

I think the root of Chris's frustration was one of the initial posts in which the OP openly hinted at the possibility of that build forming the basis of a saleable kit. (If one were to follow the links back to the site on which the "build-up" is being featured and peruse the forum on that site, one may be led to believe, as I was, that this is indeed the intention) Whilst the OP didn't confirm this on the FSM forums, he didn't exactly deny it either. (To my recollection there have been a number of threads closed or removed because the subject shown was an "in progress" prototype of a future saleable item)

Personally, I believe that Chris was following in the spirit of the above listed forum guidelines, one of which states that no trading is permitted here, but the execution could have been better.

Now having said that, I'm not saying Chris was entirely innocent here, there was plenty of provocation on both sides, BUT I think it's necessary to look at the whole picture.

Well, that's my

Well, normally I stay out too. I've lost some good friends here, mostly because of their own doing, some for pretty trivial reasons. I don't know if I can stand losing more familiar faces. This forum has seem to have lost it's feeling of fraternity.

Bgrigg wrote:

Well, normally I stay out too. I've lost some good friends here, mostly because of their own doing, some for pretty trivial reasons. I don't know if I can stand losing more familiar faces. This forum has seem to have lost it's feeling of fraternity.

 Same here fellas.

Let's keep this place good and civil. NO need to re-hash and beat a dead horse. It's done - Let's move on

Maybe it's just me, but I see the fraternity feeling as alive and well. I've seen a great many threads morph into sharing things about ourselves whether they be personal pics, life stories, past projects, occupations, other hobbies, etc. The job of keeping that feeling of fraternity intact belongs to the forum members, not the mods. It'll only die if we let it happen, and I'm definitely in favor of keeping it going.

Ya, we lost a lot of friends, but there are still a lot of good people here, and more are signing on every day.  That's the ebb and flow of life my friends. 

Appreciate the kind words guys. But will say that my behaviour was not something I am proud of. Allowing a person to get to you is bad enough. But to rant the way I did was a little much. Even though this was the third person I have had to deal with since the end of last year..

As far as being allowed back. I would have to ask that my original name and post count be restored. But as I dont think it will be, then I will continue to post on other boards.. My time on FSM was enjoyable, and I think I am a better modeler because of the members that come here..

Cheers, Chris 

This forum has seem to have lost it's feeling of fraternity.

That, Bill, in a nutshell, is why I'm here so little these days. 

Yeah, I understand now. I missed the first Schism, and wish I hadn't seen the second!

Bill 

Chris_in_Japan_Returns_II wrote:

But as I dont think it will be, then I will continue to post on other boards.. My time on FSM was enjoyable, and I think I am a better modeler because of the members that come here..

I am sorry to see you leave Chris.

I did reply yesterday Remco, but it was cut by the mods.. Seems that they are very sensitive of late with all the bannings of good people..

Chris 

Chris_in_Japan_Returns_II wrote:

I did reply yesterday Remco, but it was cut by the mods.. Seems that they are very sensitive of late with all the bannings of good people.. Chris

I find these bannings a bit harsh, especially since I have the feelling that it is not taken into consideration which member is banned. I find it difficult that a newcomer, who starts trouble, can get a long time member banned. Nobody wil make hunderds of posts just to start trolling. If somebody is a contributing member then the mods should be lenient.

It's going to be awfully quiet at the ST GB without you...