Etiquette in Responses?

Hey , CODY :

The worst thing is critiquing . Why ? Well , at an I.P.M.S. show , A fellow who didn't place in his class asked me  why ? He asked me because I judged the ARMOR class with two other fellows  .He said they wouldn't talk to him about it .

     I asked him how thick his skin was . Then I told him I would not pull punches . The result , Next show he had corrected all the things that cost him points and took a " First in Class " .

    Was it because I was truthful and took the time to show him , on his model , where he boo-booed ? Or , and I like to think , that he felt I was not tearing his model down , but showing him things the other builders did that cause him to lose .

   We have been friends for over nineteen years now . He doesn't build ARMOR anymore though .He's into stand-off scale R/C aircraft .        Tanker-Builder

CodyJ

Uh-oh.  Sorry there I didn't mean to have a few members disagree on the gray areas of critiquing. I was mainly complaining about the REALLY obvious people out there trying to rain on your parade and make ya feel bad.   However...

As far as critiques go... I think its best to try to take it all with good feelings or at least try.  Sure we all may say our opinions or advice in different ways but if your actually trying to help, it shows.  Sometimes the delivery is what hangs people up.  

As far as "Rivet Counters".  These guys tend to know info others don't so they are valuable to hear from.  However its all in the delivery.  Big difference in.....   "You realize those are the wrong decals don't you?"  and "Hey there (name) if you are going for accuracy, the decals will need to be different"

Decals tends to be an obvious accuracy issue (to someone familiar with the genre) in armor modeling. For instance, many Abrams tank kits come with fittings to make it a Marine Corps tank or an Army tank and markings for either one. Some people will mix Marine and Army fittings as well as markings.

WW2 German armor gets even worse.

Rob Gronovius

CodyJ

Uh-oh.  Sorry there I didn't mean to have a few members disagree on the gray areas of critiquing. I was mainly complaining about the REALLY obvious people out there trying to rain on your parade and make ya feel bad.   However...

As far as critiques go... I think its best to try to take it all with good feelings or at least try.  Sure we all may say our opinions or advice in different ways but if your actually trying to help, it shows.  Sometimes the delivery is what hangs people up.  

As far as "Rivet Counters".  These guys tend to know info others don't so they are valuable to hear from.  However its all in the delivery.  Big difference in.....   "You realize those are the wrong decals don't you?"  and "Hey there (name) if you are going for accuracy, the decals will need to be different"

 

WW2 German armor gets even worse.

WW2 German armour complicated. Never.  Next you will be saying German aircraft are confusing 

tankerbuilder

Hey , CODY :

The worst thing is critiquing . Why ? Well , at an I.P.M.S. show , A fellow who didn't place in his class asked me  why ? He asked me because I judged the ARMOR class with two other fellows  .He said they wouldn't talk to him about it .

     I asked him how thick his skin was . Then I told him I would not pull punches . The result , Next show he had corrected all the things that cost him points and took a " First in Class " .

    Was it because I was truthful and took the time to show him , on his model , where he boo-booed ? Or , and I like to think , that he felt I was not tearing his model down , but showing him things the other builders did that cause him to lose .

   We have been friends for over nineteen years now . He doesn't build ARMOR anymore though .He's into stand-off scale R/C aircraft .        Tanker-Builder

That is a good story, and an excellent example of the how critique can be a very positive thing.

I dunno Greg, a cynical person could ask TB why he chased that guy out of plastic modeling.

I am just kidding with TB, though.

This has been a very interesting thread for me. It can never hurt to see things from different angles than just my own.

Rex

Your are right! It has been an interesting thread to see people views on things.  

I have to confess here though I am as guilty as any.  There was a fellow on here a bit back called "Silver".  He posted a thread about Natural Metal finishes a month or so back but didn't post any pictures of his work.  A few of us doubted him and what he ways saying.  I got on him about it and was a real ***, to be honest .  I shouldn't have been.  And I always try to be good about keeping it clean.  This time I didn't.  Sorry to him.  I don't pretend to be perfect but I was disappointed in myself when I read what I had wrote a bit back.

I think it can be a constant battle not to let outside things cause you snap at folks.  There are times where I have had a bad day or something is bugging me and let it alter my mood toward someone (friends, family, etc) who had nothing to do with it.  I think forums can be the same way.

CodyJ

Your are right! It has been an interesting thread to see people views on things.  

I have to confess here though I am as guilty as any.  There was a fellow on here a bit back called "Silver".  He posted a thread about Natural Metal finishes a month or so back but didn't post any pictures of his work.  A few of us doubted him and what he ways saying.  I got on him about it and was a real ***, to be honest .  I shouldn't have been.  And I always try to be good about keeping it clean.  This time I didn't.  Sorry to him.  I don't pretend to be perfect but I was disappointed in myself when I read what I had wrote a bit back.

I think it can be a constant battle not to let outside things cause you snap at folks.  There are times where I have had a bad day or something is bugging me and let it alter my mood toward someone (friends, family, etc) who had nothing to do with it.  I think forums can be the same way.

He is in the Online Reader Gallery this month,thats his Mig 15,looks pretty good,his name is Zayas.Maybe you can leave a comment.

Yeah he sent me a message saying he finally got a picture up.  That's what reminded me of him.  Its does look very good huh!

Cody, I just have to share a laugh I got back when this thread was brand new.

I saw it and just before I opened it I thought "Who's wording their answers the wrong way now !! "

I have been accused of being too dry in my responses,,,,,,,and I don't know any other way to present facts to someone other than to just type them.

It just made me laugh, thought I would share it.

Rex

Mr Silver sent me a message as well. I will say that the Mig looks good. I will also say that he disproved his own statement that his work was "too good" to be on here or in the magazine. I am still also a bit dubious of his military service history claims made on here. But I will say that he can make a nice shiny build. The fact that he used the old Monogram kit to do so is a nice touch in my view.

TarnShip

I have been accused of being too dry in my responses,,,,,,,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0SICqoBevs&feature=kp

TarnShip

Cody, I just have to share a laugh I got back when this thread was brand new.

I saw it and just before I opened it I thought "Who's wording their answers the wrong way now !! "

I have been accused of being too dry in my responses,,,,,,,and I don't know any other way to present facts to someone other than to just type them.

It just made me laugh, thought I would share it.

Rex

I think sometimes people have to be careful about what they write online. The written word does not always come across the way it is intended. I can be quite sarcastic, but in the written form, it does not always work. We also have to consider that there are many people here from all over the world, some of whom don't have English as a first language and also people have different senses of humour and its easy for people to take things the wrong way.

I have seen some posts by posters that I thought were a bit abrupt and I have even read some of my own that afterwards I thought could be taken the wrong way. Its easy to get the wrong end of the stick.

Stik-  Yeah  I agree I don't like the answers he gave as well.  Saying he was too good and also when he said that people should listen to him and "not to listen to anyone else because they are all new to this".  However I still should have just told him I disapprove of his comments and hot-headedness (like others did) and left it at that without getting into a back and fourth.   Ha if you wanna talk about back and fourth.... go to youtube and look for a video like.....  Ford vs Chevy or Spitfire vs Mustang.   Youtube... where arguments never end!

Bish-   Yup Agreed 100%.  I too have re-read something I was about to post and was like.....  "Yeah I'm gonna re-word that!" LOL

Well, Cody, he is right, I have only been doing this since 1965,,,,,,compared to some, that is pretty new, lol.

You should have read the thread that I said that TB was "painting the way a newbie does", lol,,,,,I didn't know he was even more wizened than I am, lol.

Rex

This part of the conversation reminds me of my letter writing days, back long before email and as a hot-headed youngster. I sent a few US mails that I regretted. Finally settled on writing then sleeping, then deciding the next day if it still warranted sending. They never did.

In this medium, which is more of a read and reply right now thing, it can be difficult to take a step back to think. I'm sure we have all responded to something then wished we haven't. I certainly have.

I agree with Bish about being careful with the written word. He is right, it is not the same as face to face, and can easily be misconstrued.

stik and Cody - Is it the Mig-15 in the Reader's Gallery? If it is, I gotta tell say that's one sweet build. I liked how he has darker silver panels painted on as well. Looks real though.

I didn't realise that the readers gallery existed over on the magazine side of the site. Thanks, guys.

I have found that among the many online communities I have frequented and visited over the last two decades, these dealing with modeling are frequented by a greater number of members whom could really use a bit of thicker skin.

If a critique is about the model itself, why would you not want to hear it? Would you not wish to improve yourself and your product the next time around?

Greg & Bish have it nailed in the fact that some things said on sites or online gaming systems are things that never would be said if you were face to face.  On some gaming systems you get 15 year olds screaming and cussing and normal 30 year olds that would totally pummel them if they said that to them on the street.  

Zokissima-  I understand but like we said its all in the delivery.  Critiquing is cool and all but if a person is going to act like a creep about it and demean people while they do it, they really shouldn't to begin with.  Difference between criticism and constructive criticism is what the issue is.  Mainly everyone I have talked to here fall into the category of polite constructive comments.  Which is great because lots of other forums run rampant with people out to tear each other apart for fun.

Cody, I won't name names concerning other forums (I think that is sort of unseemly),,,,,,but, have you noticed that no one has come roaring in here to "tell us not to be talking about this subject", as can often happen at other places?

There are two forums where I feel completely at ease with posting and giving facts and history. Here and the 1/72 Aircraft Forum. I have been called a "nasty rivet counter" at so many places other than these two that it is starting to not even bother me. I just go right on "claiming" that this kit is shorter than that one, or longer, or didn't include the plug behind the radome, etc. I figure it helps those that want to get it right and park their model next to a similar one by a different company.

And for those that "don't bleeve innit" when it comes to a load out, a color, a tail code, or how many main wheels an aircraft has,,,,,they can just skip over any post that says more than "here is kit, it is new, you vill like it good" (please note that some of those other places have "help guides" up on their main page to help with all the details, then you get called a rivet counter in their forums, lol)

I just like to share what I have seen and learned, thinking that it saves other people time and effort.

Rex

zokissima

I have found that among the many online communities I have frequented and visited over the last two decades, these dealing with modeling are frequented by a greater number of members whom could really use a bit of thicker skin.

If a critique is about the model itself, why would you not want to hear it? Would you not wish to improve yourself and your product the next time around?

I don't provide critiques of other people's works in the open forums for the reasons I stated before; just not worth the aggravation unless the person asks offline. Then I'll send it. I bet I provide twice as much communication/assistance with modelers offline than I do in the open forums. And I've developed some friends along the way.

As to critiquing the actual model itself, not the person's built kit, but when someone asks if the brand "X" model of the "Super Tank" a good kit or not. Well, I've decided to not provide my opinion on any particular kit any longer on this site. Again, it's just not worth the hassle of being called a rivet counter if I say this or that is inaccurate or whatnot. It's easier to just pass the thread by and keep on going.

Buy and and build it to see for yourself or Google a review of it. I'm done with the name callers.

Selective mutism is easy online.  I listen to some people, but ignore what others have to say, based on their past posts.

Some people need to poop all over others to make themselves look or smell better; some people need to belittle others or talk big to make themselves feel bigger.    Some people talk so they can listen to their own voice. It's the same online.

I appreciate feedback and criticism from credible sources and am more than willing to ignore what I want.  

To rebuke a fool is to invite abuse, but a wise man will thank you.

Wow well put Cdn Colin!  Good approach!  :)

Hey Tarn ;

  Just because we cruised the world on grey ships don't mean we gotta spray everyone with salt water. Shoot ,I just dump a bucket of cold water on em and then hand them a towel He! He! He! You being dry , That'll be the day . I like the way you write , so there !  T.B.

Now listen here !

You got that all wrong ! We old codgers ( those older than dirt ) talk on line because we like to talk , sure .Sure beats the argument I got into the other day with a close friend  .He said my ME-262 looked like crap !

Trouble is ,when I looked up from the model I realized I was talking to myself again ! Yup, that was sure enough my old mug in the mirror ! He! He! He!

This is a good thread. I don't have anything to add because it's all been said. Thumbs up on the thread Cody.

Overall, I think this is what I failed to put to eloquent words: ultimately, online prevalence has, as a whole, made the scale model community much more of a larger one; it's also made for a venue with a double-edged sword; where in the past, an un-initiate frequented a model shop, or within a group of friends, and thus practiced basic forms of etiquette, that which CodyJ said, within these online boundaries, people just get lost in their own bad manners. Irony is that the community as a large thereafter loses a credible source of knowledge and info.

I can understand why you would chose to find another venue, and I couldn't fault it.

I guess all I can really add is to say that you take the good with the bad: though masses can't be polite, they still provide for a market, and a greater abundance of goods for us all to purchase! 

Well said, all in all. From my point of view (62 yr old, dabbled for years, took years off, recently back) I don't offer much in the way or criticism. I don't have the cred to do that and I am usually struck stupid (ok, not that unusual) by the amazing work that is produced here and the other forums. I am a "member" of several, but am most active in another that many of you are also on. This is the first one I joined and I do like the familiar nature.

The key to me is asking why or how something was done. That can provide insight and doesn't point fingers or 'rivet count'. I use those questions to try and learn. What little I've posted here is cartoonish compared to the rest.

On the other site, we have a few of the banned folks that we've allowed to join up. We had one rule - behave and abide or be gone. So far, all is well and they are contributing members. One has more than once now, expressed his regret for previous actions. We can all grow.

The issues with mods and admins that Stik and BS214 have pointed out (and yes, I was involved up to my ears in the one) almost made me just quit. In some communities, it seems, that if you are a member of the "club" you can get away with just about anything, ok, anything up to and including posting screen shots of things taken out of context from a copyrighted site. The other site allowed this with not action but finally took them down.

Boils down to there are enough forum communities that you can surely find one or two to belong to comfortably. In my case, it is two.

Interesting thread and a good read.