Tcoat

 

keavdog

I thought armornuts original intent that it would be a turd by your standards today if you built it as your 10 year old self.  Not necessarily the kit itself - just the fingerprint, nylon brush painted gluebomb you had so much slapping together while eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich and watching gilligans island or better yet, the 3 stooges.

 

 

 

 

That was my interpretation. Not the quality of the kit itself nor even that it is badly built. Just simply that the finished product would not be up to the builder's "normal" modern standards. The worst kit ever made can be built to look good and the best can look like trash if not done well so kit quality is not the Turd factor.

It get more complicated if you consider that many have radically different standards as to what is "good".

I am happy to build out of the box and give a nice paint job but some need to ensure that each bolt, rivet, wire is represented in exactly the right place for the particular vehicle they are doing then throw a horrid paint job at it. Neither method is right or wrong but one group may well think the others is a turd. 

Right, I did not get anything from the OP regarding kit quality or good kit vs bad kit or old kit vs new kit...  

  Tcoat and Keavdog are spot on to my OP, that said I guess it really does have many open opinions which thankfully have been discussed here.

   I call most of my builds " turds", most are hi quality kits where I have put hours of effort into only to have someone point out my " deficencies" It kinda takes the fun out of the hobby.

    There are many FANTASTIC modelers here, I have huge respect for them, I love to admire their efforts to take a lump of unbuildable plactic and make it an exact replica of whatever......but that ain't for me. When that person provides positive advise I don't mind, however when presented with " you should have this, that, or the other."...well I try to remember....." Why so seroius"

   I hope more folks join in on this thread, I really like the discussions we have had here. AND I hope it has helped someone realize that even their worst build can be something to be proud of.

I have to say I am enjoying this thread. Thanks to armornut for posting this!

I have a few more random thoughts  on the issue which might even conflict with one another, but, they are random thoughts...

1) I have always enjoyed taking a kit that kicked my butt when I was a kid and kicking its butt now  . I mostly built Monogram kits when growing up. Stilll love building them and want to build them all by my adult standards. I by  no means want to build a perfect model (is there one?) with them--or any kit for that matter--but I do want to build an excellent model (model being the key word). 

2) As I get older and realize how precious time is, I am always weighing the 'best technique' against the time it would take to accomplish -- which is not to say I don't still get carried away sometimes....  For example. I have no issue putting the wings/stablizers on last (last as in after painting and decaling)  if the fit is good enough. I dont mind that wing seam if it's not that noticeable. It can make the building and painting process much more fun/enjoyable/relaxing to build and paint sub-assemblies and assemble later.  Aside: I visited my local hobby shop a few years ago and they had a few big display cases with die cast aircraft in them. I always stop by and look at them and would buy a few if they were not so expensive. Then I asked myself, why do I look at these? Why would I buy one? They are die cast. They have big seams and deep wide panel lines? Answer: They are built and painted very well and look great for what they are.  

3) You cannot unlearn what you have learned, but you don't always have to use everything you have learned on your build.

4) I don't enter my models in contests. Which is not to say I never would, it's just not why I build. I build for me and my enjoyment.  I did go to a contest recenlty however,  and brought my two little boys along since they like models. I actually went to see if I could buy some old kits for a good price, and I did, but I looked at the tables as well... Some judges were there and I overheard them commenting on some of the builds, nitpicking over some rediculous things. I muttered something under my breath and one of my boys asked me what was wrong. I told him "that guy can't see the forest because all the trees are in the way..." 

5) It's your model, you build it how you want -- when it's your model, it's your hobby.  

cbaltrin

 

1) I have always enjoyed taking a kit that kicked my butt when I was a kid and kicking its butt now  . I mostly built Monogram kits when growing up. Stilll love building them and want to build them all by my adult standards. I by  no means want to build a perfect model (is there one?) with them--or any kit for that matter--but I do want to build an excellent model (model being the key word). 

 

One kit that kicked my butt was the ICM 1/35 T-28 Bridgelayer not sure if I'm brave enough to attempt building one even now! 

cbaltrin

4) I don't enter my models in contests. Which is not to say I never would, it's just not why I build. I build for me and my enjoyment.  I did go to a contest recenlty however,  and brought my two little boys along since they like models. I actually went to see if I could buy some old kits for a good price, and I did, but I looked at the tables as well... Some judges were there and I overheard them commenting on some of the builds, nitpicking over some rediculous things. I muttered something under my breath and one of my boys asked me what was wrong. I told him "that guy can't see the forest because all the trees are in the way..." 

5) It's your model, you build it how you want -- when it's your model, it's your hobby.  

Remember, without modelers bringing models to the show, there would be no show with vendor tables and the ability to "see if I could buy some old kits for a good price."

Having judged kits before, and in one of the trickier categories*, So many of the models entered are so highly built that you have to nitpick to determine between 1st, 2nd and third.

Usually, the first place is easy to identify, and often second place is too, but who gets the last spot for a medal? You and I could judge the remaining half dozen contenders for third, and you pick one and I pick another. So we nitpick every little thing and the kit with fewer nitpicks gets third. All the rest of the kits that are probably better than anything I could do go home empty handed.

The other five guys that got nothing are also mumbling under their breath about the kits that won and the judges who chose another person's kit over their "masterpiece."

Next time you are at a show, stop, look at all kits entered in one category (pick one with about ten models), and try to determine for yourself which one gets 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Then ask your sons. The three of you will probaby only agree on one of the three kits. Welcome to the unappreciated world of model kit judging.

*I was often made a judge for the 1/72 scale armor category, but my expertise is modern US armor. In 1/35 scale, WW2 German armor is often its own category. But in 1/72 scale, all small scale armor is lumped together.

So I don't know that the Tiger has the wrong paint scheme and markings, the Panther should have had zimmerit, and the British tank has non-existant features. In 1/35 scale judging, these issues would automatically set those builds at a lower tier. But I'm going to judge them as if they are 100% correct.

If it was modern armor, I'd catch that the M1A2 in USMC markings is an inaccurate kit.

Then the other entrants complain that their kit might not have been built as well, but at least it was accurate.

Awesome comments guys - thought provoking ideas are what it's all about!  Regarding older kits like Monogram's P-61 Black Widow, it did cross my mind to see if I could build it to the standards of the box art model.  The guys who built the box art kits for Monogram back in the 1970s were quite talented.

Regarding contest models, personally I feel they require a different mindset/approach compared to a "fun build".  Because frankly they are not fun, to me anyway.  We often ridicule the rivet counters, but in a contest, that's what you need to be to compete seriously.

But try not to take it too... serious.  Because at the end of the day, it's just a hobby, meant to provide enjoyment.  Of course, your mileage may differ considerably.

Real G

Awesome comments guys - thought provoking ideas are what it's all about!  Regarding older kits like Monogram's P-61 Black Widow, it did cross my mind to see if I could build it to the standards of the box art model.  The guys who built the box art kits for Monogram back in the 1970s were quite talented.

Regarding contest models, personally I feel they require a different mindset/approach compared to a "fun build".  Because frankly they are not fun, to me anyway.  We often ridicule the rivet counters, but in a contest, that's what you need to be to compete seriously.

But try not to take it too... serious.  Because at the end of the day, it's just a hobby, meant to provide enjoyment.  Of course, your mileage may differ considerably.

 

I have a bunch going into a contest for the first time ever on Sunday. I have little hope of wining anything but will be fun to see what they say.

   Just for kicks Tcoat, if you do place, quietly observe other competetors....guage their reactions, see if it co-orilates to the topic here. OR simply enjoy the contest. Best of luck my friend.

   RealG you are my brother from another mother 'cause the Monogram P-61 was one of the kits on my mind when I started this thread.....wierd....two!     Mangos...stop LOL

In my experience larger IPMS contests most entries are eliminated due to seams, mold lines, ejector pin marks etc.  IPMS starts with "was it built correctly" (perfectly).  Then on to the subject, scheme etc.  It's been a while since I put anything on the table but that's what I recall.  The old Tamiyacon contests in Alisa Viejo were super fun events and Mr Tamiya would pick what he liked.  Totally different judging so kinda depends on the event.

Good luck Tcoat - seeing what you've done I'd say you place at least.

Tcoat - Good luck on your first contest foray!    It is good advice to closely observe the contestants' models for future inspiration.

Armornut - As Puss in Boots from Shrek II said "Our minds are becoming one..."  But yeah, the original Monogram P-61 box top model really impressed me back in the day.  And to be honest, those old box art build-ups still look good today.  I have a more recent Revell boxing of the same kit, but the build quality of the model on the box is best described as indifferent.

BTW, I just remembered something about the kit when I first bought it.  When I spray painted the parts gloss black and put them in the box lid to dry, my cat tried to lie down in the box!  So my P-61 had cat hair embedded in one of the upper wings!  

Mangoes Armornut?  I spent my summers eating way too many of them in my neighbor's tree house. The older kids living there would use their pocket knives to cut them in half, remove the seed, then score them and turn the skins inside-out.  Instant "hand grenade" treat!  Oh my gosh, my mom HATED it when I came home covered in mango juice.  That stuff got everywhere, stained clothing, and caused skin rash!

One kit I was very proud of was the Revell/Monogram 1/48 P-51D. I used a spray can of Testors chrome to paint it very heavily. There were many paint runs, fish eyes and maybe a finger print. None of that mattered to me I was just happy to have a shiny looking aircraft. 

I have been reading this, and may have commented back somewhere:

               Truth is I just finished a commission of Vessels for a friend. Not Perfect by any means. You work with what is supplied right? Outside observers have said WOW. Me, Meh! But the Meh was well taught. I have over the years been known to count rivets(More likely, hull plates and fasteners on ships). On certain types I was definiely enmeshed to a slavish attention to detail and realism.

              Somewhere along the way, Way back when, I  Did post a few photos. I asked myself, Self, WHY? Now in the scales I work now, I don't worry about oil canning and dents. It makes the little ships believable. Plus I paint them sloppier because I am going to cover them with weathering anyway. Plus a few wayward rust spots in the wrong place can be explained with a little figure, paint brush in hand, Doing his or her job on the ship.

             By doing this it is now a heckuva lot more fun, than it used to be. Thank goodness I found this reprieve in time. No More contests for me. The standards are to rigid for my old working fleet, which I planned, Built and Enjoyed every stinkin lousy minute of making mistakes, and then making them acceptable to my new found freedom. As has been said, I am back to what was summed up. It's MY model and I will enjoy building it the way I want, after all it is MINE!!!

Real G

Awesome comments guys - thought provoking ideas are what it's all about!  Regarding older kits like Monogram's P-61 Black Widow, it did cross my mind to see if I could build it to the standards of the box art model.  The guys who built the box art kits for Monogram back in the 1970s were quite talented.

Real G, That Monogram P-61 will always have a special place in my heart. I had never heard of that plane before until I saw the Monogram box top. It was pure magic for me. All that interior detail. Radar. Turret. The overall odd design--not to mention the totally cool markings. Still panning on building one again-Times A Wastin....

Also,  as to the box art models -- I was justing thinking that would be a great GB for next year. Imagine yourself a box top builder for Monogram or some other company back in the day. you have to build the kit OOB and make look as good as you can with exactly what's in the box. Then you photograph it and make your own box top 

GreySnake

One kit I was very proud of was the Revell/Monogram 1/48 P-51D. I used a spray can of Testors chrome to paint it very heavily. There were many paint runs, fish eyes and maybe a finger print. None of that mattered to me I was just happy to have a shiny looking aircraft. 

 

Ahh yes, testors spray chrome, I remember the stuff well... Funny thing about the  Monogram P-51D, it took about 40 years for anyone to put something out with a better cockpit. I still prefered it over the Tamiya and Hasegawa 1/48 kits. If only Monogram had not made that that silly decision to go with the removable lower cowling.... Still a fun kit though...

cbaltrin

 

 

Real G

Awesome comments guys - thought provoking ideas are what it's all about!  Regarding older kits like Monogram's P-61 Black Widow, it did cross my mind to see if I could build it to the standards of the box art model.  The guys who built the box art kits for Monogram back in the 1970s were quite talented.

 

 

Real G, That Monogram P-61 will always have a special place in my heart. I had never heard of that plane before until I saw the Monogram box top. It was pure magic for me. All that interior detail. Radar. Turret. The overall odd design--not to mention the totally cool markings. Still panning on building one again-Times A Wastin....

Also,  as to the box art models -- I was justing thinking that would be a great GB for next year. Imagine yourself a box top builder for Monogram or some other company back in the day. you have to build the kit OOB and make look as good as you can with exactly what's in the box. Then you photograph it and make your own box top 

 

And you MUSt include the paints, glues, tools from the kit company in the picture. 

Ala Testers!

   The Travel Air Mystery Ship and Caddy are UBER COOL, and with near masters skill can be built as the box art shows.......yea by me not so much. Still really cool kits.

cbaltrin

 

 

GreySnake

One kit I was very proud of was the Revell/Monogram 1/48 P-51D. I used a spray can of Testors chrome to paint it very heavily. There were many paint runs, fish eyes and maybe a finger print. None of that mattered to me I was just happy to have a shiny looking aircraft. 

 

 

 

 

Ahh yes, testors spray chrome, I remember the stuff well... Funny thing about the  Monogram P-51D, it took about 40 years for anyone to put something out with a better cockpit. I still prefered it over the Tamiya and Hasegawa 1/48 kits. If only Monogram had not made that that silly decision to go with the removable lower cowling.... Still a fun kit though...

 

 

 

 

I was very disappointed when I purchased the 1/48 Tamiya P-51D and saw how barren the cockpit was.

Would like to give the Monogram kit another go but I don't like the removable cowling and panel on the wing. 

GreySnake

I was very disappointed when I purchased the 1/48 Tamiya P-51D and saw how barren the cockpit was. Would like to give the Monogram kit another go but I don't like the removable cowling and panel on the wing. 

Revell seems to have fixed the cowling issue--Get the big beautiful doll boxing. I fill and sand the Gun access panel.

Tcoat

 

 

cbaltrin

 

 

Real G

Awesome comments guys - thought provoking ideas are what it's all about!  Regarding older kits like Monogram's P-61 Black Widow, it did cross my mind to see if I could build it to the standards of the box art model.  The guys who built the box art kits for Monogram back in the 1970s were quite talented.

 

 

Real G, That Monogram P-61 will always have a special place in my heart. I had never heard of that plane before until I saw the Monogram box top. It was pure magic for me. All that interior detail. Radar. Turret. The overall odd design--not to mention the totally cool markings. Still panning on building one again-Times A Wastin....

Also,  as to the box art models -- I was justing thinking that would be a great GB for next year. Imagine yourself a box top builder for Monogram or some other company back in the day. you have to build the kit OOB and make look as good as you can with exactly what's in the box. Then you photograph it and make your own box top 

 

 

 

 

 

And you MUSt include the paints, glues, tools from the kit company in the picture. 

Ala Testers!

 

Oh, absolutely 

keavdog

In my experience larger IPMS contests most entries are eliminated due to seams, mold lines, ejector pin marks etc.  IPMS starts with "was it built correctly" (perfectly).  Then on to the subject, scheme etc.  It's been a while since I put anything on the table but that's what I recall.  The old Tamiyacon contests in Alisa Viejo were super fun events and Mr Tamiya would pick what he liked.  Totally different judging so kinda depends on the event.

Good luck Tcoat - seeing what you've done I'd say you place at least.

 

All done.

Total working time 22 hours 19 minutes.

Tools consisted of a dull exacto knife, a worn out medium brush, and two toothpicks (I broke one).

Although it does look pretty good all things considered it would certainly be considered a "turd" by my normal standards.

The gun could have used some thinning on several parts, hydraulic lines and filler on some seams.

The truck's paint is horrid, several parts are slightly warped and there is shiny super glue left uncoated on many small parts. Worst of all is that the front wheels have the stance of an 18 year old's Honda Civic!

I really enjoyed this basic build!

More pics over in my build thread.

She looks nice to me Tcoat! Kudos for getting her done. 

I remember now that I do have some vintage Soviet/Warsaw Pact kits from the '70s and '80s stashed somewhere. I think Eastern Express and Kopro. Those would make an interesting 'turd' build... 

I Have to add This:

              A Turd-needless to say, there's a big one lurking in some aisle or online ad. What is it? you may ask. Do any of you remember Lindberg's biggest competitor? That would be Pyro! they put out two kits that except for the name panels was the same kit-The Natchez and the Robt.E.Lee Mississippi River Steamboats. yes,I remember them well.

        I still carry the scar from the Blade on my first X-Acto knife breaking when trying to separate the deck from the sprue. Four stitches, Neat teeny ones, on the pad of my left thumb. Mom and dad had gone on vacation after the Christmas rush and Celebration with gifts and made me promise to be careful with my new tools and building models. I was careful and still bear a reminder. Oh, I have another Natchez, because I liked the kit anyway. Anything But the Robt. E. Lee, Which it seemed everybody was suddenly making! 

           The windows were only shadows of what windows would be and the Deck planks molded in, would work out to 12x24x26 foot pieces of coarse wood in real life. Not a scale for sure. But it looked neat painted in the colors on the Box Top art. Speaking of that.

             In the early mid Seventies I built two Pre-Production models and painted them for a company in Mt.Clemons, Mich. They were going to put out the sport version of the Valiant then in production and the Pontiac Turbo trans Am, The Turbo trans Am had to match photos from it's intro in the Detroit Auto Show. I did it and never saw anything from the company.       

            My model, or at least a photo wound up showing up on a model Company's Model Box in Japan! Funny that! I got got paid very well for those two but never did know what American co. was supposed to produce the things.

LOLOLOOLOLOLOL

I just got home from a huge show where I had 7 models entered. Six of them were big prjects that I poured 100+ hours into and one I threw together one Saturday evening and was maybe 3 hours from start to finish. Anybody want to get which one took a silver

Tcoat

LOLOLOOLOLOLOL

I just got home from a huge show where I had 7 models entered. Six of them were big prjects that I poured 100+ hours into and one I threw together one Saturday evening and was maybe 3 hours from start to finish. Anybody want to get which one took a silver

Congratulations on the win! May not be the one you wanted to place but you must of known it was a looker or you wouldn't have brought it!

Any chance we get to see them?

Tcoat

LOLOLOOLOLOLOL

I just got home from a huge show where I had 7 models entered. Six of them were big prjects that I poured 100+ hours into and one I threw together one Saturday evening and was maybe 3 hours from start to finish. Anybody want to get which one took a silver

JoeSMG

 

 

Tcoat

LOLOLOOLOLOLOL

I just got home from a huge show where I had 7 models entered. Six of them were big prjects that I poured 100+ hours into and one I threw together one Saturday evening and was maybe 3 hours from start to finish. Anybody want to get which one took a silver

 

 

 

Congratulations on the win! May not be the one you wanted to place but you must of known it was a looker or you wouldn't have brought it!

Any chance we get to see them?

 

I had no idea what to expect but there were over 1,500 models there and I was totally outclassed in some of my builds. It doesn't help that the IPMS judges seem to have a totally different outlook on modeling than I do! I like to make things look as real as possible but they seemed to be looking more for precision in the subject and pristine paint jobs with no dirt or weathering even if appropriate to the subject. 

All of what I entered have threads on here someplace but here is a rundown.

Watched them look at this one. They took one look at the cracked paint on the roof and moved on without even a second glance. They didn't even peak at the form that said it was actually deliberate and very difficult to do. 

Was entered for OOB. Knew it didn't stand a chance but the highlighting of the promo chassis was fun so threw it in there anyway. 

Now... this may sound like I am complaining or something but I assure you that is not the case. I had a blast and the general public enjoyed my work. The Terminator one received  several People's Choice stickers which made me happy! What I did come away from it all with is that these contests are obviously judged by a different standard. Many of the categories (there were so so many) were won by the same person taking all three awards. One guy cleaned up in cars, another in armour and there was a guy for aircraft that just stood on the stage while they handed him award after award.  These guys seemed to invariably be IPMS members that obviously have done this a long time and know exactly what the judges are looking for. 

I am not in the hobby for awards and will continue to enter these shows for the fun of it but I will attempt to build a couple of models to their standards just to see what happens!

Tcoat

 

...

And this took silver. I threw it in at the last minute just to round out some categories.

I'm sure it's easier to get consensus when judging technical aspects then on more subjective artistic merits - Your I-400 is a beauty in both realms, I can see why it placed. You must be disgusted with your other entries - I'll be happy to take them off your hands if you can't stand the sight of them anymore! 

   I also am truly apaulled that you would bring such obvious " TURDS" to such a time honored and prestegious event. How dare you! You obviously gave no forethought nor bribes to the keen eyes of those judges, the oddasity to think that free thinking and creativity could bring you into their good graces....wow I'm not sure I should accociate with you lest your " inadiqueicies" rub off on me and diminish my chances of glory.

    Had it crossed your mind that perhaps that sci-fi judge ACTUALLY built that exact HK and was sent back naked thru time by none other than John Conner just to slap your AWESOME attempt to depict a COMPLETELY FICTICIOUS event.

    SARCASM, PURE SARCASM!! I like to show my stuff off however attitudes like what was displayed really take the fun out of it.

JoeSMG

 

 

Tcoat

 

...

And this took silver. I threw it in at the last minute just to round out some categories.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure it's easier to get consensus when judging technical aspects then on more subjective artistic merits - Your I-400 is a beauty in both realms, I can see why it placed. You must be disgusted with your other entries - I'll be happy to take them off your hands if you can't stand the sight of them anymore! 

 

I can see judging on tecnical aspects but it is narrow focus on them that I found interesting. They never even looked at the technical aspects since the imeadiate reaction to the "artistic" parts was a big no.

Too late