Aircraft Trivia Quiz

 Espins- would you mean Gotthard Handrick- gold pentathalete for the '36 Olympics? I think he had the 5 olympic rings on his plane somewhere.. visible from the front of the aircraft..prop spinner  or right behind it I think. I think he was slightly older than the Molders/ Galland generation and if I'm remembering him correctly he ended up on the Russian front commanding a fighter squadron or so.

Of course, as usual,  please disregard all of the above if I'm wrong.

 Regards, Keith

I just did a bit of a look up and I was wrong about Patton.  He finished 5th in 1912.  Apparently his shooting scores cost him a medal.

 Bill 

It's not Werner Molders (although good guess).  I'm building Werner Molders Bf109D for the Spanish Civil War GB...... but I digress 

This gentleman's Bf109B-2 was unique in the sense that it unusual markings.  The spinner had an olympic rings emblem on both sides.... one of which had "1936" with the emblem (he won a gold medal in the Pentathlon at the 1936 Olympic games in Berlin), and the other side had "1940?", presumably because he hoped to win another medal at the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo.... which obviously never came to be. 

Desperation guess -

Werner Molders?

Here's another hint...... 

He flew a Bf109B-2 during the Spanish Civil War.

Here is a hint.  This gentleman scored some of his kills during the Spanish Civil War.

Not Ted Williams, although that's pretty cool that he was not only such a great hitter but served as a Marine Pilot in WWII and Korea. 

Interesting, I didn't know Patton was an Olympian.... learn something new every day! 

I'll drop a hint in a little bit but I'd like to give some others a chance to see the question first.

espins1 wrote:

Ok.... this one combines sports with aircraft. Name the pilot who not only won a gold medal at the Olympics but also managed to shoot down 5 or more enemy aircraft in two separate wars.  If no one gets it by tomorrow afternoon I'll start trickling hints day by day.  If I give a hint now it will may be too obvious

I know the general who was an Olympic gold medalist: George Patton.  I can't recall ever hearing of any Olympic athletes who were also fighter pilots.  You got me stumped.

 Bill

Just a wild shot in the dark here, but would it be Ted Williams.

Steve

Ok.... this one combines sports with aircraft.

Name the pilot who not only won a gold medal at the Olympics but also managed to shoot down 5 or more enemy aircraft in two separate wars. 

If no one gets it by tomorrow afternoon I'll start trickling hints day by day.  If I give a hint now it will may be too obvious 

hudskit wrote:

Espins.... it's your turn for the hot seat

sorry guys, I've been meaning to post a question all day but haven't had a chance.  Dinner will be ready in a minute so I'll post one right after we eat. 

Espins.... it's your turn for the hot seat

I've read that too- I think that version has it stuck at McCarran with the same malady-metal in the screen. I managed to score a bunch or Air Classics on e-bay a few years back and there was a picture of one banking in a course- but perhaps that's a Mojave picture- memory just isn't what it was ...

It had the same splinter camoflage pattern as the reno one had duing the '70's...I dunno..but it really didn't look like the CAF one that wrecked at Reno.

Keith

skybolt2003 wrote:

1976. http://www.airrace.org/raceResultsQueryDisplay.php I'd love to see a picture of that one! Miss Florida II One record says it had mechanical failure enroute and the other says it had failure on the course . . . Hmmm.

I searched for a picture.  There is a lot of discussion about it on various discussion boards, but nobody put up a picture.  According to the discussions, it wasn't a German built 109, it was a Spanish HA-1112.  Probably left over from the filming of the Battle of Britain.  

 This site lists all the preserved Axis aircraft in the world: http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/

There is a page for HA-1112s and the Czech version.  The HA-1112s became available at a time when people wanted to preserve warbirds, so there are a lot of them left.  I didn't see anything about an air racer being destroyed, so I suspect Miss Florida is probably still around, though possibly as one of the relics awaiting restoration.

Bill 

1976. http://www.airrace.org/raceResultsQueryDisplay.php

I'd love to see a picture of that one!
Miss Florida II

One record says it had mechanical failure enroute and the other says it had failure on the course . . .
Hmmm.

Really well done Espins-you've covered all of the bases except the final one- and Jeaton is really close on this. The aircraft you're thinking of is actually the old CAF buchon that indeed did wreck at Reno one year- the story is it was so difficult to get parts for these aircraft they used to paint over the exposed cords in the tires after each landing !  The actual aircraft that I'm thinking of is the whittington Buchon that ran a few heat races one year (1970?)before retiring with metal in the screen -and it once was indeed a blue replica of Ernst Udet's 1937 109v14 ride. Spot on about the finnish racers- there were 2 that were painted for this one time "race".

Great job guys- and I think it's espins time for a question...

Keith

There was a 109 that was at Reno one year, a G I think, not a Buchon.  I recall it was damaged in a landing accident.  Sounds like a Whittington maneuver.

At the 1937 Zurich Switzerland meet there were a total of five Bf109 aircraft, a mix of B's and D's along with two specials, V14 and V13.  The event took place in July and August of 1937.  Various Bf109 aircraft won the circuit of the Alps race, the formation race and the climb and dive competitions.

There was a red Bf109V14 (erroneously reported as being blue by many sources, possibly confusing it with a blue Ha1112 flown by Whittington).  This Bf109V14 was a converted Bf109B featuring a DB601 engine, designated DB601 Renmotor II with 1565 horsepower)

There was a blue gray or gray green Bf109V13 (another converted Bf109B with a DB601 engine, converted after the V14).  

Let's see.... I know there was a Bf109G-6(Y) high altitude intercepter used by the Finns for racing.  They designated it as an MT 508.

And some other interesting tid bits........

The first Bf109V-1 prototype was raced by Ernst Udet, which used a British Rolls-Royce Kestral upright V engine with 695 takeoff horsepower.

Two more prototypes were built designated Bf109V-2 and Bf109V-3.  The Bf109V-2 was built in 1935, and used a 610 horsepower Junkers Jumo engine.  The third protoype was an armed version of the V-2 but was delayed until May 1936 due to lack of engine availability.

In November of 1937 Udet set a world speed record of 379.38 mph in a Bf109C powered by a DB 601 engine rated at 1175 horsepower.

There was a Bf109R (in reality the initial prototype Bf209) that was purpose built for racing, but the only thing it had in common with the Bf109 was the DB 601 engine. It set a world speed record of almost 470mph in April 1939.

The last evolved version that Messerschmitt developed was designated Me209 II, but really wasn't related to the Me 209 racer at all and was an evolved version of the Bf109G.  It had a few interesting design changes - the narrow track landing gear was changed to hinge from the wings, instead of at the fuselage, greatly widening its track.  It also featured a taller tail and a more power version of the DB601. 

 

I should have mentioned that- specifically it is the Bf 109 airframe with at least 3 different engine types- I think the 109 had 5 different engine types in it's long lifespan- and by that I am not including variants of the same engine- such as the db601/605 series. If it helps- we are looking at a timespan of at least 40 years- give or take...

C'mon guys- the 109 wasn't always in a splinter scheme.... and actually looks great in it's racing attire...

Bret- the last time they raced- probably forever sadly enough to say- involved the irrepressable whittington brothers-hope that helps a bit...

Keith

Just the 109? . . . you're not talking the -108 and 209 too are you ??

-Bret

I've only got one 109 racing reference

 Let's see if we can wake everyone up by asking a question about Luftwaffe aircraft...

Three times in history (that I'm aware of) the ME 109 has participated in air racing-

please name the three events and the variants of the Me 109 (Bf 109 for you purists)that participated...

 

 Regards to all- and I'm counting on you Me 109 guys here, Keith

Yes of course, Maloney.
I've always been fascinated by the the P-39. I read a long time ago about the difficulties in designing a drivetrain like that and trying to eliminate harmonic vibration that could devastate the system. I wonder what if anything was done to Cobra III's gear box and shafts to absorb all the extra power they claimed to have given it?
As far as the torsional stress theory, it's certainly plausible– if you look at how the -39 is built the structure is kind of built like a bed with the engine mount, wing spar and forward gearbox laid out on it. If I were going to design a contemporary racer around this layout, I'd make a tube truss to hold the major components and use composites for the empennage and wings. In any case, it looked pretty terrifying to me, it would have been one hot machine with those tiny wings and no flaps. It would have been like riding a firecracker with your back up against the hot-rodded Allison (although I read something somewhere that seemed to indicate it had a stock Allison on it for the initial test flights.)
By all accounts, Mike Carroll was a very well liked and compentent pilot. I'm not sure I believe the low hours though – I think you need a minimum of 1,000 hours to compete in Reno these days. Of course it could have been different back then.

So Hudskit - it's your question . . .

hudskit wrote:

...Glad to see another air racing enthusiast on the board- I have to admit I'm truly mystified that more modelers don't check out air racing- one day in the pits at Reno and you'll learn more about aircraft than years studying then in magazines. There is truly nothing like standing 20 yards away from an R-4360 when it starts up... or seeing them haul past at 450mph 25 feet off the ground ... or watching a Yak 9 (admittedly with an allison) trying to sneak by a Tigercatin the turns... 'nuff said...but if any modeler could give me some insight into the lack of interest in Reno racing I would appreciate it... Keith

It seems as though there is a percieved lack of interest on both sides of the bench.  Modelers think there is not enough interest to make racers a profitable venture for the manufacturers and manufacturers don't see many requests for these so they don't give them a try.  As modelers, we really need to take responsibility and let the manufacturers know that there may be a viable market for kits of modified and one-off air racers.

There are some really beautiful racers out there.  My favorites are moded P-51's like Red Barron, Strega and one whose name escapes me right now but had Lear wings and empanage fitted.  Of course, Rare Bear cannot be left out either.  Planes like these are where I think manufacturers can offer a line of air racers that would sell enough to make it a worthwhile venture.  After these take off and drum up more interest in air racing, we can go for the Thompson Trophy and Schneider Cup racers.

Mac

Interesting reflections on Mike Carroll and Cobra III.  I remember when it happened, and am pretty sure I have an old magazine article about the accident.

Bret, I'm sure it was just a typo, but it's Ed Maloney, not Mahoney.

Bret

I manage to attend each year a symposium held in Cleveland each year -Air Racing Historians- and a few years ago there was an older gentleman there that had worked on Cobra III- and the  torsional stress theroy was the one that was his preference- scared ape was his phrase for the aircraft- I would have to agree with his opinion that Mike was a natural pilot- amount of hours not withstanding. I agree with you that it would have been a fascinating aircraft to watch compete-a regrettable loss on both counts. 

Cobra III is correct. Cobra II was modified with a stiffener in the windshield after I crashed. After the Thompson races it languished for awhile before Ed Mahoney of Planes of Fame got ahold of it. Mike Carroll was a new race pilot, fielding the big Sea Fury with the flame paint job named "Signal Sea Fury." His family owned and he ran Signal Trucking in Long Beach CA. He bought the P-39 from Mahoney, which by that time (1967?) was in bad shape. The clipped the wings to a pretty scary amount (I have the exact span on another computer) sealed the flaps and the LH door, lightened it up all the could and sealed all the seams. The put on leightweight wheels and tires and the motor was massaged to make over 3,000hp. They made an evaporative coolor for the oil and glycol and expected it ould break the world speed record. On it's initial test flight out of Long Beach, with E.D. Weiner flying chase in his P-51 it seemed to go out of control soon after take off. Mike bailed out but hit the horizontal stabilizer and never opened his chute. The NTSB report sighted pilot's lack of experience as a major factor - he only had around 250 hours flying time! Speculation abounds about the cause, but some seem to think that he wasn't familiar enough with the quirks of the Airacobra - one of them being the extreme vibration in the drivetrain, especially at high power. His no doubt would have been worse than normal with the big prop and high power and some people close to him think he may have misinterpreted it as impending failure and abandoned ship. Darryl Greeenamyer had volunteered to do the test flying but was busy that day. Very sad situation. I often wondered what Cobra III was capable of.
-Bret

Interesting insight into "tiger's" earlier days- which in some ways is 180 degrees out from my current(2002 to present) impression of his flying/racing style. His aircraft , Strega, is not only one of the fastest Mustangs in the air today- but also IMHO one of the prettiest. The wing fillet modifications and canopy revisions are quite well done-and actually imprve the already sleek lines of the aircraft. The faster aircraft at Reno fly the course slightly differently than the slower aircraft- they almost fly an extended arc around the pylons -holding the bank from the trn far longer than the slower aircraft which takes out the "turn" motion- and allows them to fly much higher on the course with a smoother line (altho flying a much greater distance)than the other aircraft mixing it up down below. He has seemingly always flown a nice tight course fairly high up- in comparison to a few of the other racers- every time I see "Hoot" Gibson (ex-astronaut)fly a course it almost seems like he should come back from the course with sagebrush in his cowling-I really don't think you can see the bottom of his aircraft during a race! Minimun racing height is 50' of the deck- but it seems as tho that rule is winked at....

The XS stuff is always available on e-bay-as well as another vendor who has done a great job with decals for the racers-post war as well as modern Reno racers.

As for the question- since a bit of time has gone by- is Cobra III- which was a rebuild of Cobra II from the Cleveland days. On it's first test flight it suffered engine and airframe problems- when the pilot attempted to bail out he struck the tailplanes and died in the resultant fall. The theroy is that CobraI and Cobra III both crashed due to the failure of the windscreen and other non rigid pieces of the airframe failing during high speed runs-caused by the airframe"twisting" due to the much higher rated racing engines exerting a signficant amount of torsional/torque stress on the airframe- in essence twisting the airframe beyond it's designed parameters-remember it had the rear mounted engine and long driveshft that was captured in a front roller bearing/reduction assembly-creating 2 separated "capture" points with different mounts os torque on each... 

 

Conversion kits for both are available from XS and I think that Accurate minatures has a 48th scale Cobra I out these days

Hope thats right ,Keith

skybolt2003 wrote:

Last time I was at reno was in the early 70's – life got in the way since then. A good friend races in the Sport Biplane class – Tom Aberle. His dad taught me to fly. He is currently fielding the Phantom which is kicking butt. I have a standing invitation to crew for him, but haven't been able to make it work. I do remember the last time I was at reno, they had some fuel problems _ Lloyd was in the slot and putting in the power, his enigine (still the Centaurus I think) went from full rich to autolean, and detonated, blowing a jug (cylinder) right out of the cowling. As I said before on this list –I've been cutting the wing tips off my models since I was a kid.

Air racing has never been my favorite subject, but a couple of tid bits, I know a guy in Germany who decided to do something about the lack of air racer models: http://www.xs-models.com/  When he started the company, he and I talked about the name.  He wanted a name that would reflect his obsession with quality and he chose XS for that reason.  I've seen a few reviews and they are positive.  It looks like they are imported into the US by Race Plane Decals RacePlaneDecals@aol.com.

 When I was in college, I knew Bill Destefani.  He was restoring Strega at that time.  He was also restoring a P-40 that I did some work on.  He was a fixture at the local warbirds airfield in Shafter, CA.  I'm a bit surprised he hasn't killed himself.  I always thought he was too reckless to fly a P-51 safely.

 When my sister was selling her house, I happened to be there when a real estate agent came by to show the house.  I looked at her card and saw the name Destefani, I figured she was either his mother or his aunt.  It turned out to be his mother.  She saw some models in the house and mentioned her son was into aircraft.  I had to restrain myself from telling her just how jealous of her son I was, though I did mention that I knew him.

Bill 

hudskit wrote:

Exactly right Brett- it too fufilled it's destiny as scrap metal with a frozen engine and the resultant fatal interaction with gravity. It's somewhat interesting that both of these aircraft were signifiantly inferior to the aircraft that they were designed in competition against- ie the p-47,p-51 series of aircraft. The floor's all yours, Bret

 Curtiss went out of business shortly after the war.  They had a tendency to stick with a basci design far past  its obsolescence.  The P-40 was behind the curve in 1941.  By 1945, it was a fossil.  The XP-40Q was an attempt to soup up the old design to get a plane that was competive with modern fighters, but it was pushing an old design too far.

The mess with the SB2C Helldiver also  put the company into a lot of trouble.  The problem stemmed from an unrealistic requirement on the part of the Navy to be able to fit two dive bombers on an aircraft carrier elevator that ended up with a plane that was too short to be stable.

Bill

Last time I was at reno was in the early 70's – life got in the way since then. A good friend races in the Sport Biplane class – Tom Aberle. His dad taught me to fly. He is currently fielding the Phantom which is kicking butt. I have a standing invitation to crew for him, but haven't been able to make it work. I do remember the last time I was at reno, they had some fuel problems _ Lloyd was in the slot and putting in the power, his enigine (still the Centaurus I think) went from full rich to autolean, and detonated, blowing a jug (cylinder) right out of the cowling.
As I said before on this list –I've been cutting the wing tips off my models since I was a kid.