Aircraft Trivia Quiz

Hang on.  I seem to recall a dim memory (all of mine arew pretty dim nowadays), of a story like this from when I was a kid.  A naval torpedo bomber almost couldn't take off because there was too much paint on it..  Too thick.  The weight kept it down.

telsono

Neither, the aircraft was well maintained and fussed over by its crew.

Mike T.

Neither, the aircraft was well maintained and fussed over by its crew.

Mike T.

Float suction? Or possibly a flooded float?

Weather conditions were warm and clear with calm waters. The engine was working fine and the weight capacity was normal or below for the aircraft.

Mike T.

I have a couple of guesses.

1.  Wing Icing if in cold weather.

2.  seas too heavy.

I know they were underpowered so with a full load of fuel and a tail wind or no wind they wouldnt get up.

Scorpio - No pilot error, and for a certain reason, the aircraft couldn't break from the water into the air, no matter how much he tried. The aircraft on its previous flight had to struggle somewhat, but was able to get into the air.

Mike T.

Im gonna take a guess and say the person at the controls didnt know how to fly (i.e pilot incapacitated)

I have to question your wording though, do you mean couldn't? or wouldn't?  

Just a bump:

As a synopsis of the question:

1) Kingfisher on a training flight that couldn't lift from the water and why?

       a) aircraft not overweight, and used for many of these flights, it was well maintained

       b) weather and waters calm and clear

       c) not in a combat zone

Mike T.

I am looking for a non-combat situtaion. The incident I am looking for was during training, as mentioned in the original question. The aircraft had no armament payload and was on a normal training flight from a base in the US. The internet may not be a good source for this information.

Mike T.

I beleive this is the incident you spoke of before. Maybe another one.

telsono

Thanks Bondo -

For my question, it concerns the Chance Vought OS2U KINGFISHER. There is a story where in one case the aircraft was so overburdened that it had to taxi over to a waiting submarine to hand over the crew it rescued.

My question involves another Kingfisher that also couldn't leave the water. This was an aircraft used for training purposes and had logged many hours in that duty. Weather wasn't a factor in the problem. So, what was the reason for this Kingfisher to be unable to reach the skies? and where did it happen?

Mike T.

Two other incidents come to mind.  The incident you mention happened near Truk in 1944.  The Kingfisher rescued a total of 10 pilots and had to taxi about 20 miles on the water to reach a submarine.  There was a similar incident that took place in October 1942.  A B-17 that was converted to transport configuration took off from Hawaii carrying former Captain Eddie Rickenbacker on a civilian trip around to the bases in the Pacific.  The destination was Canton Island, about 1800 miles southwest of Hawaii.  The plane got lost and had to ditch.  All crew and passengers survived the ditching and made it into three life rafts, and they spent about three weeks in those rafts.  Near the end of that three weeks, the survivors decided to split up and try to find land.  Rickenbacker and two others were spotted by Kingfishers around dusk, and one of them landed to pick them up.  They were in contested waters.  The plan was to take them to a PT boat, but they did not want to chance alerting any nearby Japanese forces by shooting more flares up, so the pilot loaded one man into the rear cockpit, and secured Rickenbacker and the third man to each of the wings.  They spent the next half hour taxiing to meet the PT boat, some 40 miles away, in total darkness and with their legs hanging off the front of the wings. 

The third incident that came to mind happened, if I recall right, in July 1944.  A kingfisher was sent to recover a Navy pilot from Guam--he was on the beach.  The pilot flew in low, tried to recover the pilot but could not get in close enough to him.  While the kingfisher was on the water, the pilot actually fell over the side, and his foot caught the throttle--it pushed the throttle far forward.  The plane was tearing off across the water with the pilot dangling over the side!  Pilot finally got free, both pilot and the original shot-down pilot were rescued by a second kingfisher, and Navy fighters destroyed the unmanned runaway Kingfisher.  Could be mistaken on the details, I do believe this was in a recent Flight Journal or similar magazine.  The pilot that rescued the two airmen was actually able to take off despite the extra load, and was awarded a Navy Cross for the mission.  The plane he flew that day is the one at the Smithsonian.

Thanks Bondo -

For my question, it concerns the Chance Vought OS2U KINGFISHER. There is a story where in one case the aircraft was so overburdened that it had to taxi over to a waiting submarine to hand over the crew it rescued.

My question involves another Kingfisher that also couldn't leave the water. This was an aircraft used for training purposes and had logged many hours in that duty. Weather wasn't a factor in the problem. So, what was the reason for this Kingfisher to be unable to reach the skies? and where did it happen?

Mike T.

Maj. Maurice Guirad (1st Bataillon Etranger de Parachutistes/ BEP), Capt. André Botella (5th Bataillon de Parachutistes Vietnamiens/ BPVN), Maj. Marcel Bigeard (6th Bataillon de Parachutistes Coloniaux/ BPC), Capt. Pierre Tourret (8th Assault), Lt. Col. Pierre C. Langlais, Commander at Dien Bien Phu (Groupement Aéroporté 2), Maj. Hubert de Séguin-Pazzis (Chief of Staff).

Mike this picture was taken in Dien Bien Phu during the plan to reinforce the garrison. The badge on  Langlais is the French Parachutist Badge, and he was commander of  the First Foreign Parachute Regiment.  BEP1

He was captured, repatriated and died by suicide in 1988.

You are closest, over to you.

Bondo - This is a picture of the French commanders who looked at a map and selected the airfield at Dien Bien Phu to be a strike base against the Viet Minh forces. If they had better looked at the surrounding terrain they would have noticed that it was ringed by high mountains which left the position extremely exposed to artillery fire. Not the Verdun (in reference to the fortifications at that French city) but a self laid trap. The original airfied was built by the Japanese.

Henri Narvarre was in charge of all French forces in Vietnam. Colonel Louis Berteil, commander of Mobile Group 7 and Navarre’s main planner for the plan to use Dien Bien Phu as a base for a "hedgehog" defensive position. Major General Rene Cogny previously proposed to use this position as an anchor not as the main deployment. The plan which was universally ridiculed by the other commanders incuding Colonel Jean-Louis Nicot, Cogny, and generals Jean Gilles and Jean Dechaux.

Does that cover your question?

Mike T.

I'm out of questions for now Bondo, You had the fight I was looking for. If you can find any roster that lists that kill, I would love to see it.

As far as those guys above, they look like the French Paras early in the Dien Bien Phu fight.

OK but I boned it because I said Kilgus got the one confirmed, and that is incorrect. I think we need another question Stik.

Your question got me to thinking about earlier engagements. And of course the original Migs were not jets...

I'm currently reading everything I can find about the Indochina war with the French. Lots of good stuff there.

You must know of these guys.

Yes you have the engagement Bondo. On April 4, 1965 during the second strike on the Thanh Hoa Bridge VPAF MiG-17s made their first engagement with USAF strike aircraft. 4 Migs attacked an flight of F-105s orbiting in a holding pattern prior to making their bomb runs. Two Thuds were shot down but Cpt Don Kilgus in a MiGCAP F-100 got off a shot at the fleeing Migs and claimed hits and a "probable" kill on one of the Migs. Three of the four Mig-17s were downed, and the surviving MiG pilot said that US fighters were responsible for their loss. At the White House it was decided not to award and credit to Cpt Kilgus for political reasons (per the new Squadron Super Sabre in Action "it was not that kind of war" they said). The F-100 MiG-17 kill does not appear in nearly any listings of the Vietnam War credited MiG kills.

Yes I have seen the Thud up close and personal a few times. I love that bird! At one of the Air Force Base Museums near Sacramento (Mc Clellan I think) there was a MiG-17 displayed across from a F-105... talk about size difference.

Over to you Bondo

Alright one more try and then I retire.

On April 4, 1965 there was an air engagement between four Mig 17s and a cloud of F105s and F100s. Only one Mig seems to have survived, but two Thuds were shot down. In the following confusion, we confirmed one Mig, the NV leader claimed three of his planes were lost to 105's, Kilgus in a Supersabre got the one confirmed, and the other "105's" who shot down jets were most probably 100s.

In Vietnam of course.

Whew, I think I got that right...

BTW if you've ever climbed around a Thunderchief, it's a really big and really impressive "fighter". I love Republic, they make aircraft that pack it.

No, this kill occured earlier. IIRC the Skyraider Mig kills do appear on the "official" rosters.

Hartmann and Johnson in A-1 Skyraiders, flying off of CVA-41 Midway, shot down a Mig-17 on June 20, 1965.

Somewhere inland, north of Thanh Hoah which is up north more or less due west from Taiwan.

Glad you didn't ask "why" it wasn't confirmed. I'd guess because of the nature of the victor, whose guns killed the jet because the Mig flew across in front of them. Obviously they were not in a dogfight.

The use of SBDs  as CAP probably had somehting to do with the limited number of fighters that could be carried in the F4F-3. Once the -4 was fielded, with its' folding wings, more were carried on board the carriers increasing the size of their fighter groups.

OK, I asked this question over on another thread in the O&E forum just before it got nuked and never received a correct answer, so maybe this group here will do better:

This was arguably the first Mig kill of the Vietnam War. It does not appear on any of the official tally score sheets of aerial victories. But it did happen. The victor made a claim for a probable. The VPAF admits to the loss in aerial combat. But due to a political decision, it was never confirmed/granted. Who/what/when/where did this occur?

There was a point during those early fightings in the Pacific that there wasn't enough F4F's to cover CAP duties and SBD's would be sent up to do fighter duty over the carriers. The SBD was nimble enough without a bomb load to handle these chores, earning one of the nicknames "Slow But Deadly".

Mike T.

stikpusher

Swede Vejtasa-He shot down three Zeroes while flyng an SBD at Coral Sea and during SantaCruz hesho down 7 Kates while flying F4Fs.

He would also down a Rufe with his SBD during the strike on Tulagi just prior to Coral Sea. And score a direct hit on Shoho during that strike at the beginning of Coral Sea, thus helping to sink the first Japanese carrier lost in WWII.

here's the winner....the Zero could out-turn everything in the sky in 1942, imagine shooting one down with a Dauntless!  And then, not only one, but three??  wow....

Whoops

Bueller.... Bueller...

Swede Vejtasa-He shot down three Zeroes while flyng an SBD at Coral Sea and during SantaCruz hesho down 7 Kates while flying F4Fs.

He would also down a Rufe with his SBD during the strike on Tulagi just prior to Coral Sea. And score a direct hit on Shoho during that strike at the beginning of Coral Sea, thus helping to sink the first Japanese carrier lost in WWII.

TheWildChild

i believe the pilot you are referring to is Lt. Edward O'Hare. in an F4F he shot down 5 bettys in one day flying off the USS Lexington in 1942. i cant remember where but i think it was in the Solomon islands but not sure. Is this what you mean?

 

No, it isnt O'Hare.  The pilot I am looking for was an ace in a day but was also know for something else that was unheard of--in fact, more rare than the ace in a day was.  here's a hint--while the fighter he flew was considered old, the other feat I am talking about involved a second type of aircraft, which was also considered obsolete almost from the moment it entered active service.

i believe the pilot you are referring to is Lt. Edward O'Hare. in an F4F he shot down 5 bettys in one day flying off the USS Lexington in 1942. i cant remember where but i think it was in the Solomon islands but not sure. Is this what you mean?