Should price be a factor in kit reviews ?

Well, hell---I think EVERYTHING is too expensive, so I'll whine about it in here...What about milk?  WTF is going on there?  Those dairy farmers are jacking us!!!  And bread?  Are you kidding me? Those farmers must be living like kings...

Okay, glad I got that outta my system.  Now, back to reality.  Whether you believe it or not, it isn't the "newbies" that are supporting our niche' hobby, its us old farts with disposable income that are...and if anyone wants to continue wringing their hands about how the hobby is "dying" and there are no "young" people joining our dwindling number, go right ahead.  While your doing that I'm gonna go out and drop $229 on the latest and greatest and fondle the instruction booklet until I fall asleep dreaming of styrene sugar plums...And if our hobby is dying, I'm gonna enjoy it until it draws its last breath...And all of you who think kits are too high, PM Hammer---he'll show you how to survive the hobby on less than a nickel a week...

PS: WTF kinda job did you have as a teenager pulling down $250 a week, GRIGG? 

Mad-Modeler

I think the price should be mentioned but not have an impact on the kit. Ditto with mentioning areas that could be improved with AM-parts.

For me the review should tell me about the kit and I can than decide afterwards if the price is good for me or not.

I agree. Although a kits price may turn me away, there are some that are a little pricey that I would still pay for. But that's after i've read or heard from my fellow modelers here that it's THE kit to get for that aircraft or such.

Harshman II

 

Which is precisely I put it at 90%... How many establish kit maker emphasize on newbie or budget modeller? Revell and Academy are just the few 10% kit maker but they are far too little.

I can easily give you a dozen of kit maker who have no regards for price factor for their new kit.

 I'm pickin up what you're puttin down. It was the same way when I was a kid too. Testors, Monogram and Revell were all that would fit into my allowance. They are still here, so I guess there's hope!

So what are you saying, BGRIGG--there is a conspiracy involved in over-charging for plastic model kits and the CEO's of Tamiya and DML are making more money than the CEO's of Toyota and Sony? I mean, really?  Seriously?  Trust me, model companies are not having any problems selling their fare at current prices...I f they couldn't they would either lower their prices or go out of business...free-market is a wonderful thing...

Modeling is a niche' hobby.  A LOT more people buy flat-screen TV's and cars than build models...if more people modeled than most probably kits would be cheaper as the price per unit would come down, like the case with certain electronics, etc...

If you can't afford the hobby, I'd suggest making bead jewelry---that's what most hobby stores are carrying anyway...I just picked up a large scale DE ship for less than $15, so there you go... 

[/quote]

Where did I say there is a conspiracy? Please don't put words in my mouth MANNY (and WTF with the capitalization?)

Kids just aren't buying kits like the "old days", that is a fact. Sure there are a few here on the forums who do, but they will be the first to admit that they're few and far between. The thread a while ago about the average age being 40 was spot on. The majority of people building are much older than 20, and I bet that in the 60s it was reversed, with the majority of builders being younger than that.

That's a fact of life, and you well know it.

Manstein's revenge

PS: WTF kinda job did you have as a teenager pulling down $250 a week, GRIGG? 

Mechanic in a union shop. $6.75/hr x 40 hours per week = $270. Simple math really. Canadians typically get paid a lot more than the US. Minimum wage laws and all that.

And really, why the GRIGG? You know my name. it's right below this post.

Bgrigg

 

So what are you saying, BGRIGG--there is a conspiracy involved in over-charging for plastic model kits and the CEO's of Tamiya and DML are making more money than the CEO's of Toyota and Sony? I mean, really?  Seriously?  Trust me, model companies are not having any problems selling their fare at current prices...I f they couldn't they would either lower their prices or go out of business...free-market is a wonderful thing...

Modeling is a niche' hobby.  A LOT more people buy flat-screen TV's and cars than build models...if more people modeled than most probably kits would be cheaper as the price per unit would come down, like the case with certain electronics, etc...

If you can't afford the hobby, I'd suggest making bead jewelry---that's what most hobby stores are carrying anyway...I just picked up a large scale DE ship for less than $15, so there you go... 

Kids just aren't buying kits like the "old days", that is a fact. Sure there are a few here on the forums who do, but they will be the first to admit that they're few and far between. The thread a while ago about the average age being 40 was spot on. The majority of people building are much older than 20, and I bet that in the 60s it was reversed, with the majority of builders being younger than that.

That's a fact of life, and you well know it.

[/quote]No i don't well know it...let me see market research data that supports that.  When I was growing up all of the modelers I knew and read about were older than me---way older.  My father got me started (he was older too)...

All this hand-wringing about the hobby dying if the "kids" don't save us...LOL...been hearing that for 30 years too.  Pretty clever marketing i suppose so that us old farts (who support the hobby) will drum up some business for them so the spectre of not having kits looming on te horizon will scare us into action...If it dies, so be it...None of us can stop it.  If kids want to do something besides building models I aint gonna twist their collective arms...

...so what was the $250/wh job you had when you were a kid?  When I was a kid a Tamiya low-end kit was a HUGE chunk of money to my family---to this day I can remember getting the old 223 armored car and my family sacrificed to buy that for me...oh, I forgot---that's when kits were "cheap"...

I got a fewkits pre-ordered, among them some Macross kits.

Bandai is reissuing some OLD kits like the Destroids and are now charging 2.100Yen for a kit that sold initially for 800Yen.

Now those kits are OLD toolings and need some serious TLC and scratch-building to add needed details.

Same time Wave is also issuing new Destroid kits at around 5.000~6.000Yen/pop but they are new toolings with much better detail, higher part-count, better fit, working gimmicks, etc and can be snapped-together. They are using slide-molds, etc which are newest technology.

Now the old Bandai kits will still sell mostly for the nostalgic factor and for newcomers who simply buy according to the price. Same way that R2, Moebius, etc make a killing now by selling improved Aurora, etc kits.

Now while those old Destroid kits still build up well, these days I prefer the Wave kits as they need less work, etc and I am willing and able to afford them. I no longer have the same free-time, etc I had 20+yrs ago to fix the provs on those kits.

Said that decent kits always were priced high since I started this hobby and I do recall the cheap kits we bought at the candy-store, plane kits sold in sealed plastic-bags with like 14 parts, etc.

Harshman II

I don't think so.. From the current trend kit are getting more and more expensive. Yes, the quality has improves too but IMHO the quality improves does not justify the 2-3 folds of  prices.

The 1/350 warship is a good example.  $80-90 for a destroyer proves too much for me. Not to mention Battleship. Plus for the supply and demand to really take effect, probably will need few years time or a decade to see the effect. By that time happen, it might have drive out some potential new hobbyist or young modeller who might not have that deep pocket.

Then there will be a vacum in between for kit modelling...

I mentioned this elsewhere, but in addition to the declining demand, have you taken the price of oil into account in the 2-3-fold price increases you mentioned?  Not meaning to get political, but if the price of gas and motor oil goes up the same 2-3-fold, I figure other petroleum products like the plastic for model kits and petrochemicals used in paints and cement, are going to go up as well.

Of course, another factor right now if you're looking to any overseas sources can be the exchange rate.  A lot of what I've been getting for the past few years has come from Japan, but that's slowed down not only because I've gotten causght up on kits that I'd missed before, but the rate dropping from about 110 Yen to about 80 per dollar over the past few years.

Kugai.

Have to disagree, the petrol used for plastic kits is a minor factor. Major costs come in from using new technologies like slide molds, etc and the new machinery, skills needed.

Add to that new formulas are needed to plan parts layouts on the sprues, etc. Designing the parts and doing the sprue layout now can take hundreds of man-hours, etc.

Plus many parts are now grown or need to use a laser cutter to get the fine details into the molds(multiples needed for mass production).

There are now plenty of vids on Youtube, HLJ, etc that show the full creation process.

That argument does not ring true when, as has been pointed out some manufacturers such as Airfix, Revell, Eduard and Academy, can put out the same amount of new tooled material for a significantly lower price. Of course the cost of plastic has increased over the past decades, but not in a manner which supports today's uneven pricing.

Folks,

A little random info from FSM HQ regarding Workbench Reviews:

We pride ourselves on our objectivity. Our goal is to tell you what's in the box, how accurate it is, and how well it goes together. We have a very, very loyal team of reviewers who provide their building expertise, research, and reviewing skills for every issue of the magazine.

Do we pay our reviewers? Absolutely. They use their valuable spare time to build brand-new kits straight-from-the-box in less than 30 days. And they research the kit's accuracy. And they write a review. And their finished model will be professionally photographed, presented, and scrutinized in a publication presented on newsstands around the world. No pressure there! The WBR team works incredibly hard to support and inform the hobby via FSM.

Yes, we receive sample kits from the manufacturers, but if we don't receive a sample of much-anticipated kit for some reason, we'll buy a kit on the retail market to build and review.

Although we occasionally receive them, we never review "test shots" (early production kits that may not be in their final form). We want to provide a review of exactly what you'll get in a kit from the hobby shop.

We report the price, but we never comment on it. We hope you can compare our objective reviews with the listed price to decide whether or not any given kit is worth its price to you.

If you have additional questions, please let me know.

Matt Usher

Editor, FineScale Modeler

Editor@FineScale.com

Matthew Usher

We report the price, but we never comment on it. We hope you can compare our objective reviews with the listed price to decide whether or not any given kit is worth its price to you.

 

As it should be IMO......

In my opinion (for what little it's worth), FS's policy regarding kit prices in reviews (i.e.., mention 'em but don't comment on 'em) is entirely reasonable.

The current trend in kit prices certainly is a topic worthy of discussion - and FSM has discussed it.  (We've been having a good, lively conversation, with quite a few interesting viewpoints brought up, in the "FSM Insider" section of this website.)  I can easily understand the logic of putting that sort of thing in a separate section from t he reviews.

Also - I see nothing wrong whatsoever in paying cash for reviews.  The journals I've sent reviews can't afford to do that; if FSM can, so much the better.  (I don't know what the pay scale is, but I suspect the reviewers aren't getting rich.)

I look forward to FSM's review of the new Airfix 1/72 Spitfire I.  When that review appears, I'll make my own decision about whether the competition from Tamiya is worth twice the money.  (I suspect the answer wil be no - but I'll wait for the review of the Airfix one.)

Matthew Usher

...Do we pay our reviewers? Absolutely...

...We hope you can compare our objective reviews with the listed price to decide whether or not any given kit is worth its price to you...

#1 - Sweet gig, you know, until you put a big old superglue thumbprint in the middle of that perfect canopy!!

#2 - The way I think it should be, I'm assuming there is quite a broad demographic when you're talking the "average" FSM reader. I've got a budget & know what I'm willing to spend on plastic, but I'd love to know what I'm getting into first. Tamiya's recent 1/48 Storch is a great example - if I hadn't seen a thorough review (from FSM and others) I never would have cracked the wallet open that far.

And thanks for checking in on us from time to time, nice to know that "the authorities" are around!

While i do agree that some kits MSRP seem pretty high,I also feel it is necessary to bargain hunt!Squadron usually has pretty good deals in their flyers and the 40% Hobby Lobby coupons are very useful in getting a good deal on a kit.(I personally got a 1/48 Tamiya Owl for a little over 30 bucks.Not bad)! I am lucky to have a LHS that has really good prices on some nice kits.I recently bought a Mach 2 DO-26 kit for 44 bucks when the going rate is 80-90 bucks!So the bargains are out there if you are willing to look.Of course ,the latest greatest release may be financially out of reach for some .But hold on for a time and you just might find that choice kit at a good price!

We seemed to make a sharp turn there at some stage.  I was never attempting to state that the hobby is becoming too expensive universally.  Its still very affordable at the bottom end, and I wouldnt be so juvenile as to suggest that every Joe out there should be able to afford every kit in existence.  Take that Hasegawa F6-F that Gerald reviewed in 1996.  14 years later, its still about the same price !  Like Manny said, supply and demand. 

I remember being on a motorcycle forum years ago and some Newbie was whining about the price of second hand motorbikes and how he couldnt afford to get into the market, etc etc,  Well one guy came on and absolutely blasted this kid.  Told him the world doesnt owe you a living, get off your a$$ and earn some money and you can afford to buy the things you want, etc.  Same goes for any consumer product I guess.

What I was talking about, was the rise of the uber-kit, which I've seen appear in the last decade.  1/32 jets on the wrong side of $150, ditto 1/350 scale ships.  even some 1/48 aircraft are getting close to the $100 mark.   We rely on the reviewers expertise when making a line call on the model overall, I'd just like to see them step into the shoes of Joe average, and put down what their gut tells them about the kit, in terms of value for money.

Wirraway

What I was talking about, was the rise of the uber-kit, which I've seen appear in the last decade.  1/32 jets on the wrong side of $150, ditto 1/350 scale ships.  even some 1/48 aircraft are getting close to the $100 mark.   We rely on the reviewers expertise when making a line call on the model overall, I'd just like to see them step into the shoes of Joe average, and put down what their gut tells them about the kit, in terms of value for money.

OK, now I get what you're talking about with the uber-kits.

I mainly do sci-fi subjects, so I haven't dealt much with the planes and ships you're referring to, but I have been shocked at some of the prices I've seen.  Now, in SF there are kits that have some pretty shocking prices, not including the resin that's out there, such as the FineMolds Millennium Falcon or the 1:350 Space Battleship Yamato from a few years back. 

Just as an example from my experience, I have the FM Falcon and have had a chance to compare it to the old AMT kit.  The FM version is more accurate to the studio model, has a lot more parts that would have required a lot more time and money to design, and left no need for aftermarket parts that I've seen as long as you're not wanting to light it up.  It was pretty pricey, often going for $200 compared to the $30 price tag you'll often see for the AMT version, but the aftermarket set of resin parts I've seen for AMTs kit usually ran for about $150.  I decided to get the FM kit because 1) the difference between the added cost of accurizing with the resin aftermarket set made the cost of the AMT kit with aftermarket parts "close enough" in my mind to where skipping the added work of the resin add-ons was worth the remaining $20 difference and  2) the resin set wasn't often available which looked likely to make accurizing the "cheaper" AMT kit the more expensive option.

If the plane and ship kits you mention have follow the same pattern as these kits, with added accuracy in the kits from the start adding to the production costs but reducing a need for after maket parts, then I can see why the cost would be higher than you'd expect from factors of scale and subject alone ( the 1:48 P-40 I saw today might be worth the $50 if I knew that it has a lot more detail than an older $25 kit  that would take 10 hours more work and $30 of aftermarket parts for the same effect ).  If a particular kit is just an overpriced bunch of ill-fitting parts with glaring inaccuacies or bare of detailing to the point that it's no better than the bargain-bin stuff from the '70s for that $100 price tag, though, I'd say someone's screwing up royally.

I undertstand what you'd like to see from the reviewers, but I was never under the impression that they were supposed to really do that ( I always though doing so tended to be seen as opening the door to blatantly stating personal bias ).  By stating the price and writing a review tha includes relevant problems with a kit ( bad plastic, excessive flash giving the first impression that it's vacu-formed, raised panel lines, poor fit requiring an extra 4 hours with a hair dryer to correct ) as well as praising the good points, a well written review can leave it to the person spending the money to decide whether it's worth it to them or not. 

And all of you who think kits are too high, PM Hammer---he'll show you how to survive the hobby on less than a nickel a week...

That's why I can now afford to buy a couple of the new 1/35th resin CUCV kits... 

Not that I'm actually gonna DO it... Just that I CAN...

But actually,  I put my money into tools and materials, rather than kits...   Eventually, I'll figure out how to build anything with nothing... All it takes is being able to see a "model part" in something that isn't one...

I build a variety of subjects and seen the latest technologies.

Granted not major here but Bandai got the best tech using slide and micro-injection technology.

Took them years to perfect from the early 1/60 scale PG & MG kits etc. Their new range(Real Grade)  of Gundam kits is mind-blowing, they get the same level of detail and articulation on a 1/144 kit.

There are moveable parts now like fingers that are cast as one part. Cut it off and it moves.

Granted that tech takes some serious investment but a 1/144 kit of a Zaku still retails for around 2.500Yen(same price as a reissued Macross Destroid from 20yrs ago).

Now the same tech would work wonders on moveable tracks, etc on other subjects.

I think that price should definitely be a part of the review.  Folks like me, who are on a very limited budget need to know if a kit is worth saving up for months or years for.  And contrary to some opinions which feel reviews should only show the good points of the kit, I feel that the whole purpose of a review is to show both sides of the kit, good and bad.  The price is a major factor in this balance.  If some company got some old R/M molds and decided to just stick in a few detail pieces and charge ten times as much as te original, I want to know about it BEFORE I go out and buy that kit.  Price is at least as important as how many (if any) PE parts or resin parts the kit has.  As for companies giving reviewers the kit after the review.  I would be worried about the companies who do not even want the kit reviewed.  Those that do the review should be allowed to keep it.  In most cases I would think they would do a build of the kit as part of the review process.  Otherwise, I don't think they would be able to do an accurate and fair review.

Wirraway

Like most of us, I look forward to reading the kit reviews in each edition of FSM.  And, like most of us, I've been shocked at the MSRP that some manufacturers are asking for their kits (glad I dont build 1/350 warships !)  But I've come to accept that some stuff I can afford, and some stuff I cant.  Like most of us, theres a line in the sand I wont cross when it comes to price.

Now I dont expect a state-of-the-art kit, chock full of  resin, PE, extensive decal sheets and colour reference material to be the same price as an old Monogram re-pop  (no offence, Hans !)  But couldnt the reviewer give their opinion as to whether they think the kit is value for money ?  After all, they have the experience.

Admittedly, they arent paying for the model, and I dont know if they get to keep it after they submit their review ?  But I would like to see in the "pros" and "cons" of the review, their opinion whether this kit IS good value for money, or, given the reviewers experience with the kit, that it is, in their opinion, overpriced.

Or, is this just going to scare off manufacturers from providing kits for the  reviews.  Do they have to be involved anyway ?  Cant FSM just buy a kit off the shelf and give it to a reviewer ?  Or do they rely on pre-release kits and the goodwill of the manufacturer ?

Sorry if I've been asking more questions than providing answers, but this has been bugging me ever since I saw the ad for those two IJA 1/35 trucks with a MSRP of more than eighty bucks apiece.......   I hope there's a Rolex hidden inside the box somewhere...........

As I pretty much all of my kits are from the local IPMS show vendors, (or a nice 1:48 Revell from Micheals with a coupon), I rarely read the reviews, but I am glad to know they are there. I rarely buy kits from my local hobby shop except the occasional $10 Airfix kit. Instead of kits, I buy paints, tools and assorted supplies. I like building that 1:48 Revell, but their is a hidden joy in builting that old Airfix 1:72, with the faded, crumpled box. I'm working on their Hurricane 1 now, and it's coming together pretty well (by my standards). I can't describe it, but there's just that hidden joy in building an old kit.

I see FSM's review of the new Airfix 1/72 Spitfire Mk. Ia is now available on the web (presumably to be published in print in the January issue).  The reviewer comments that "the kit is an excellent value I can recommend wholeheartedly to all modelers. My 14-hour build turned out an attractive Mk.1a. Airfix has given us another great kit at a very reasonable price."

So much for the "we report the price but never comment on it" policy.  But I, for one, don't find those particular observations at all objectionable.  The bulk of the review is a thoroughly objective description of the kit - and I can tell from the photos that its windshield is shaped more accurately than Tamiya's.  (The misshapen windshield has often been noted as the biggest weakness of the Tamiya kit.)  It looks like Airfix has released a state-of-the-art 1/72 fighter priced well under $10.00.  That strikes me as a major event. Bravo Airfix and bravo FSM.  I do believe I'll buy this one.

Did you notice the panel lines are visible from Space?  In scale inches, they must be two inches wide...

The photograph of the parts trees in the latest issue's (December) "Spotlight"  looked to be about 1/144 scale and the lines were HUGE in that..

Yes

Manstein's revenge

Modeling is a niche' hobby.  A LOT more people buy flat-screen TV's and cars than build models...if more people modeled than most probably kits would be cheaper as the price per unit would come down, like the case with certain electronics, etc...

If you can't afford the hobby, I'd suggest making bead jewelry---that's what most hobby stores are carrying anyway...I just picked up a large scale DE ship for less than $15, so there you go... 

Amen.

I don't care what the price is, if I want that sucker I am going to buy it. Compared to my primary interest (motorcycles) this hobby is a "peanuts" affair.

As far as reviews go, I appreciate that they give the price and I like the parts tree view so I can see what I am getting but I tend to not care about the reviewers experience as they tend to be far more skilled than me so I don't feel that our experiences will be the same.

One guys "pleasant weekend build" can be another guys "epic quest".

Yeh, you want to talk sticker shock.  I wanted to get my Daughter a simple model kit for getting a great report card so she gave me a list of kits and you know what..?  Every single one of them was too expensive.  And this was on eBay...  Some obviously nutzo seller was actually selling the Morpheus C57D for (get this) $499.99, and that was just the starting bid.  I was lucky enough to find one of those for $25 a year or two back, and now they seem to be hovering just around the $100 mark.  The problem is perceived value and some sellers have some really odd perceptions. 

These are the kits she gave me.

Star Trek Generations Enterprise D (not the small one)

Star Trek Enterprise A (again, not the small one)

Colonial Viper (original series)

1/48 scale Revell SR-71. (She has the 1/72 but says it's not big enough, and its her favorite plane ever) LOL

The prices for these were nuts.  So she's going to have to settle for something out of my tiny stash.  These are NOT rare kits, there are dozens of them on eBay.  All of them are older kits, but the prices are up there over $50 in some cases.

We must END THE MADNESS.......  LOL

Rich

Kugai

 

Wirraway:

 

What I was talking about, was the rise of the uber-kit, which I've seen appear in the last decade.  1/32 jets on the wrong side of $150, ditto 1/350 scale ships.  even some 1/48 aircraft are getting close to the $100 mark.   We rely on the reviewers expertise when making a line call on the model overall, I'd just like to see them step into the shoes of Joe average, and put down what their gut tells them about the kit, in terms of value for money.

 

 

 

OK, now I get what you're talking about with the uber-kits.

I mainly do sci-fi subjects, so I haven't dealt much with the planes and ships you're referring to, but I have been shocked at some of the prices I've seen.  Now, in SF there are kits that have some pretty shocking prices, not including the resin that's out there, such as the FineMolds Millennium Falcon or the 1:350 Space

Price should be mentioned, like they currently do, but not that big a deal. If it's over my limit I ain't buying it anyway. Unless of course I haven't bought a model in two or three months and so I've got that much more to spend.

Also, I've been following this post for awhile and I've seen a lot of references to Ebay. Forget it. 

I actually know - and could name- (and believe me I'm tempted) an individual who purchases brand new MatchBox Cars at a local toy store and resells them on Ebay for up to ten times what he paid. He simply never outright states the car is rare. And he always makes a big deal of it being in mint condition.

Given the number of reputable online hobby retailers, those Ebay ripoffs can go - well- you mentioned a daughter- so I won't say what they can do. 

GeorgeA

I actually know - and could name- (and believe me I'm tempted) an individual who purchases brand new MatchBox Cars at a local toy store and resells them on Ebay for up to ten times what he paid. He simply never outright states the car is rare. And he always makes a big deal of it being in mint condition.

If you out me I'll send the Das Reich Panzer Division to your house for a "peacekeeping" mission...

Yes there are some bad sellers on eBay, but there are also some really good ones.  That C57D is a good example.  It was actually the second one I got on eBay.  The first arrived badly damaged and someone had badly tried to do the first step of essembly.  I contacted the seller and she was very sorry.  Her son had told her it was OK.  She refunded my money and told me to keep the damaged kit.  So now I have a spare parts kit for the one I bought later.

Sellers have been trying a whole lot more since they changed the feedback rules last year.  I never ever touch a seller with less than a 98.6% positive rating, unless it is an item under $5.  Then 98.0% is my absolute cutoff.

It is possible to get some incredible deals on eBay, but you need to be patient and careful.  Make sure to thoroughly read the last couple of months of feedbacks in the seller profile.  Squaretrade makes it safer.  Even if the seller doesn't want to refund for something that is broken or different from what the seller describes, they can and do refund you.

Then again, you get ones like the one selling the C57D for 4 times the going price.....  They need to do more research about the going price before they list.

GeorgeA

Price should be mentioned, like they currently do, but not that big a deal. If it's over my limit I ain't buying it anyway. Unless of course I haven't bought a model in two or three months and so I've got that much more to spend.

Also, I've been following this post for awhile and I've seen a lot of references to Ebay. Forget it. 

I actually know - and could name- (and believe me I'm tempted) an individual who purchases brand new MatchBox Cars at a local toy store and resells them on Ebay for up to ten times what he paid. He simply never outright states the car is rare. And he always makes a big deal of it being in mint condition.

Given the number of reputable online hobby retailers, those Ebay ripoffs can go - well- you mentioned a daughter- so I won't say what they can do. 

Mad-Modeler

There are now plenty of vids on Youtube, HLJ, etc that show the full creation process.

SOrry, but aside from the discussion, any chance you can provide a link or two to some of these videos, I'd actually like to see.