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I wish to clear up a misconception spread.... Locked

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  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
I wish to clear up a misconception spread....
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 12:06 PM

by user Mannstein's Revenge. This is in regards to ship kits, which I help Dragon with to a certain extent:

They do, I believe, test market them by giving several kits away to some of their bigger fans, such as Tracy White.  As he mentioned in this thread (or was it the other one?) the instructions even be worse if they didn't go through that exercise

I'm really not sure where to begin with this. Dragon does not "test market." They choose a product and start working on it. Presuming it doesn't get beat to market early enough (this happened with a planned Warspite kit that was killed early on by Academy's announcement, but the Z.39 was carried through because a lot of time and money had been invested by the time Trumpeter's Zerstorer had been announced) the CAD is finished and then a test shot is done.

Now, this may change somewhat in the future, as the CVL was only the second LARGE ship they had released recently and there were some features that needed to be tested and tweaked. It may be in the future that less test shots are done. As it was, I received two test shots, more or less, but spread out over a couple month's time.

These test shots were not completed kits. They had broken pieces where the size was too small to survive mold ejection and/or shipping. They were missing detail such as the deck planking in the first flight deck test shot as they were testing other features. They are shot at a lower pressure, with less refined molds and incomplete parts. They are done before the instructions, so they are shipped sans instructions or decals. Those we get PDFs of for proofing. Not everyone who gets copies for proofing has a copy of the test shot for comparison.

These are not given out to fans at all, in fact they really don't want them seen as it can cause a miss perception as to what the final product will be. This happened to Hasegawa with their CVE; similar shots were posted by Hannants that showed a lack of deck planks and only tie-downs.. forum posts were disappointed in the lack of detail they perceived. The actual kit had them (I've got one, it's a nice kit).

They are a tool and not a perk. They are used to quickly identify problems for fixing.

I did receive three extra kits for distribution to a couple of other individuals who had helped the process. AFTER the distributors had all received their shipments. So, there is no test marketing of kits; it's one production run, and those who do get a kit in thanks do so after everyone else has a chance. There is nothing "fan" related to who gets them.

I talked to Dragon about the instructions after the CVL-22 kit and as we started the CVL-23 and they are open to change. They do want to see examples of how we would change it though, and that I am working on. There are no guarantees they will implement all of the changes, but my hope is that by showing them a better way, they will find it acceptable and easy to implement. Dragon is not perfect. But they are willing to work with modelers to improve, and they genuinely do want to release the best product and make modelers want their kits as much for brand name as for subject.

Frankly, Mannstein is speaking about things he really doesn't know about and has not been involved in. Please take any of his statements about Dragon's motivations and methods with a couple grains of salt at least.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 12:26 PM

Tracy

I want to offer you an apology for the way you were demonized about this whole instruction 'issue'. I thought it was really infortunate the level of vitriol that was raised over (what in the grand scheme of things is) a pretty minor issue.

I guess I feel partly responsible for you being targeted since I asked you the initial question about Dragon and instructions, since you are a Dragon 'insider'. Please know that if I'd known the depths to which that conversation was going to plunge, I would not have asked that original question.

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 12:35 PM

Frankly, I don't apologize fpr anything I wrote.  Virtually everyone who has built a Dragon kit has problems/issues with their instructions.  In the latest issue of FSM this was pointed out yet again in a product review of Dragon's new 350th carrier. 

As soon as the valid criticism was leveled Tracy ran to Dragon's defense, and in effect, said that anyone who had a problem with the instructions belonged to the "hand holding" crowd of model builders...I believe he did make an attempt later on to walk that statement back, to his credit.

I actually love Dragon products and drop a lot of dough on them---more than any other company, in fact.  I also like Tracy White--seems like a nice enough guy and is knowledgable and helpful.  However, I gotta call a spade a spade.  Dragon instructions are poor at best...which is too bad since the quality of their kits themselves is, in my opinion, the best in the business.  But I refuse to withhold vaild criticism just because I like their kits---it wouldn't be honest.

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Posted by oddmanrush on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 12:38 PM

bbrowniii

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

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Posted by stcat on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 1:30 PM

Been there...done that.

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Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 1:43 PM

Manstein's revenge

But I refuse to withhold vaild criticism just because I like their kits---it wouldn't be honest.

It was not the valid criticism that I had a problem with. It was all the other garbage that went along with it. A perfectly good discussion was completely derailed (and ultimately locked) because some people decided to make it personal, rather than focusing on the issue at hand.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 1:45 PM

No worries guys, I'm used to it after being involved in some of the old Pearl Harbor color debates! Big Smile It'll take a lot more than that and Maj Mike's insults.....

Mannstein: how many cottage industry kits have you built? How many far-eastern European kits? If you have a small sample-set of instructions you've dealt with then I can see where you might say that. Trust me, there is a lot worse. There is a lot more crude. Doesn't mean I'm not going to push for something better, but c'mon, it's not like they're impossible to figure out, even with the mistakes and crammed isometric views...

I did not "Walk back" the hand holding comment, but it was blown out of proportion. I did not, as you say, state that anyone who complained was in this camp. There is a definite group of people who will complain about a kit if it involves any sort of work or thinking involved. I have little empathy for them. Not everything in life is spoon-fed. Yes, the instructions should be improved, and chasing them gives a decent target, even though we'll never hit it. It's like aviation; aim for 100% safety, knowing it's impossible.

There are die-casts and pre-builts for those who can't handle it. Your choice. Does that count as not walking back, or should I try again?

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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Posted by oddmanrush on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 1:50 PM

Tracy White

There are die-casts and pre-builts for those who can't handle it. Your choice. Does that count as not walking back, or should I try again?

Whoa, hold on there buddy!......Take it easy for a second and explain this for me....

You mean to tell me there are pre-built kits??? I've been doing all this work when I could simply have some one else do it for me???

WTF!

Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 1:55 PM

Tracy White

Manstein: how many cottage industry kits have you built? How many far-eastern European kits? If you have a small sample-set of instructions you've dealt with then I can see where you might say that. Trust me, there is a lot worse.

There is a definite group of people who will complain about a kit if it involves any sort of work or thinking involved. I have little empathy for them. Not everything in life is spoon-fed. Yes, the instructions should be improved,

There are die-casts and pre-builts for those who can't handle it. Your choice. Does that count as not walking back, or should I try again?

Dragon is hardly a cottage industry so that is no excuse for their poor instructions.  I hardly call those who want clearer instructions people who need to revert to snap-tites...If so I guess the reviewer featured in the latest FSM issue needs to stop building Dragon kits and start building die-cast. 

But since you can't be objective about Dragon, because you benefit from your relationship with them, I don't expect you to be objective.  Try again...

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Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:02 PM

Manstein's revenge

But since you can't be objective about Dragon, because you benefit from your relationship with them, I don't expect you to be objective.  Try again...

I was ready to drop this, but I can see that this thing just isn't going to die a natural death... so,

Manstein's revenge

As soon as the valid criticism was leveled Tracy ran to Dragon's defense, and in effect, said that anyone who had a problem with the instructions belonged to the "hand holding" crowd of model builders...I believe he did make an attempt later on to walk that statement back, to his credit.

Manny

Why are you so incensed about that one, off the cuff comment? And, if you'd take the time to review, you'd remember that Tracy said a lot more about the issue and did not run 'to Dragon's defense' at the first sign of trouble. For example, he said:

"I think Dragon tends to focus on the plastic and the instructions are more of an after-thought, but I haven't worked with them on site to know how big that part of their operations are."

and

"They do care... they just don't care ENOUGH. They hear that people aren't happy, but kits still sell. Why should they change?... Look, I've admitted fault before on both my part and Dragon's. You can criticize them, that's fine. I'm trying to line up support here so that we get more pressure on them so that they feel more reason to change the process and not dump a while instructions sheet on volunteers with only 36 hour's time to look it over and provide input."

He even suggested a method where you might actually accomplish your goal of getting Dragon to improve their instructions when he told you to:

"Manschtein: don't you think it would be better for people to contact Dragon and complain? If people actually wrote them it might be a little more effective than 5% fewer sales out of the gate for no reason they can see, hmmmmm???????"

It just seems like your ticked off at Dragon so you want to pick a fight with Tracy as some sort of surrogate of the company. So, to achieve your ends, you cherry-pick his comments for the one can be the most taken out of context and use it to paint him in as bad a light as you possibly can. Maybe he can't be objective about Dragon, but it seems you can't be objective about HIM.

 

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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  • From: Monster Island-but vacationing in So. Fla
Posted by carsanab on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:03 PM

I agree with Manny....one of the purposes or reasons we post on these forums IS to let everyone including the kit manufacturers what the pros and cons of their products are regardless of whether we are fans of the makers or not. They all have good and bad issues and every kit is different. 

 I personally DO have an issue I am currently finishing up the 229 Dragon kit and DO have lots of issues with the kit..the instructions are poor and vague...the kit has engineering and fit issues...so eventhough I think the kit is nice and a great subject I do have a problem with it and I feel I have a right to complain and this does not mean that I need to be handheld....For Tracy to assume that its so, is a knee jerk conclusion.  Most all of us here have a good amount of modeling experience and have built from many different manufacturers so I would actually take VERY seriously the comments made on this forum....and if you do have a direct line of communication with a manuf to let them know......2 cents

Now any other comments made afterwards.....come on people.....we all know its part of the "schtick" here on our little FSM planet....lighten up.....we have all been subjects to razing in one way or another and we are all big boys and girls...nothing IS and ever should be taken personally.

HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR!!!!

 Photobucket

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:16 PM

I was letting it drop and even complimented Tracy AND Dragon in an earlier response.  I buy tons of Dragon kits and actually like Tracy, BUT he can't be objective when it comes to this issue...period.  He posted this thread after that fact and took another swipe at me.  And all of you know I'm not gonna skulk away from that...

A quick google search finds as many of these comments about Dragon's instructions as you care to read...not MY words...

From Missing Lynx:

"One thing that hasn’t changed is the atrocious instructions. They are of the photo type introduced with their first small scale kits and after some complaints from customers, changed back to the line drawing type. However, because this kit is just a modification of one of the early kits we get the original instructions with just the appropriate changes and additions. This makes it hard to see how and where some parts fit and others are just left off altogether."

From Hyperscale:

"This otherwise excellent kit is only let down by its poor instructions, which contain many errors and omissions, and stingy decals."

From Perth:

"...there are some annoying anomolies and you have to be on your guard...a warning something is amiss with the instructions so check carefully before altering any part."

  • Member since
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  • From: Monster Island-but vacationing in So. Fla
Posted by carsanab on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:18 PM

oddmanrush

 Tracy White:

There are die-casts and pre-builts for those who can't handle it. Your choice. Does that count as not walking back, or should I try again?

 

Im sorry but I have to REALLY disagree with this statement. ..in fact I am upset that someone who seems to be as connected as he says with the manufacture or release of its thinks this way. The whole idea of the hobby is for everyone of ANY skill to enjoy the kits available or coming out...and I think thats especially true for the large manufacturers like Dragon....they are not a "cottage industry" as previously mentioned. They SHOULD be concerned about the instructions or other issues of their kits.....to say if you cant handle it there are these other options is really looking down on the newcomers/beginners to the hobby.

 Photobucket

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  • From: Jefferson City, MO
Posted by iraqiwildman on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:18 PM

What I can't figure out is why these companies can not correct these problems?

Tim Wilding

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  • From: Jefferson City, MO
Posted by iraqiwildman on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:20 PM

Also, how do I become one of these "insiders" who get to test these new releases?

Tim Wilding

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:28 PM

iraqiwildman

What I can't figure out is why these companies can not correct these problems?

Is Dragon ( founded in pre-PRC Hong Kong , I believe) now one of the state owned companies in China?

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:40 PM

I thought they owned everything...?

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:40 PM

oddmanrush

 

 bbrowniii:

 

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

 

 

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

Do you mean: "Bury the Hatchet" ?

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Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 3:08 PM

Sprue-ce Goose

 oddmanrush:

 

 bbrowniii:

 

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

 

 

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

 

Do you mean: "Bury the Hatchet" ?

As long as it is not in my back... Whistling

Uhhh, or my front either, for that matter.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 3:16 PM

bbrowniii
 Sprue-ce Goose:
 oddmanrush:
 bbrowniii:

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

Do you mean: "Bury the Hatchet" ?

As long as it is not in my back... Whistling

Uhhh, or my front either, for that matter.

No Jack Nicholson moments?

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  • From: New Jersey
Posted by oddmanrush on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 3:17 PM

bbrowniii

 

 Sprue-ce Goose:

 

 

 oddmanrush:

 

 bbrowniii:

 

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

 

 

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

 

 

Do you mean: "Bury the Hatchet" ?

 

 

As long as it is not in my back... Whistling

Uhhh, or my front either, for that matter.

Don't worry, I said I was lurking...but I wasn't lurking with a hatchet...

Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 5:30 PM

Manstein's revenge
BUT he can't be objective when it comes to this issue...period.  He posted this thread after that fact and took another swipe at me.  And all of you know I'm not gonna skulk away from that...

Pray tell, how did I do that?

Traveling for the next 24 hours.. will answer more when I can.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 6:32 PM

Tracy White

 Manstein's revenge:
BUT he can't be objective when it comes to this issue...period.  He posted this thread after that fact and took another swipe at me.  And all of you know I'm not gonna skulk away from that...

Pray tell, how did I do that?

Traveling for the next 24 hours.. will answer more when I can.

You took a swipe by aiming this entire thread towards me in a an attempt to make it look like I'm making this whole "Dragon instructions generally suck" as something I just made up...just admit that you can't be objective about Dragon because of the obvious conflict of interest that exists and agree to disagree...OR we can keep going.  I'll be happy to provide more review quotes that call Dragon out on this issue.  But if you want to make it personal, I'm game for that as well...I can do this forever...keep 'em coming...travel safely. Wink

  • Member since
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  • From: Hobart, Tasmania
Posted by Konigwolf13 on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 7:32 PM

My 2 cents

I've been building kits for the last 27 years, I've built Tamiya, Dragon, Academy, Tomy (OK their Zoids are closer to toys but but instructions are possibly the best), Kinetic, Trumpeter, Hobby Boss, Revell, RoG, AMT/ERTL, Matchbox, Frog, Italeri, Hobby Craft, Tasca, Zhengdefu, A few noname chinese, and more I cant remember, and without a doubt Dragon has by a long way the worst instructions I have used/seen and this is a consistant basis (No I dont have it in for dragon I have more of their kits on my workbench then any other currently). I occasionally may need to check a reference to confirm where or how a piece is attached, dragon its usually like 3-4 times per kit (and as for step 11 on their Initial Production Tiger Kit 6600 I guess I should go back to diecast cause 'as you say'  far as I can see part of that should not be there if you use the detailed fuel/radiatior bays from earlier on but there is no note of this...).

 

I'll say it simply, Tracy, you're a Dragon fanboy pure and simple.

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:46 PM

Just my 2 cents...

I haven't seen a set of Dragon kit instructions since 1998 or 1999 ( don't build ships or armor, and my purchases after re-entry into this hobby have been limited to Revellogram,, AMT, Eduard,  21st Century and a few Trumpeter; - no Dragon aircraft )

I did note a forum member needed quite a bit of help with the USS Independence  from one of the disputing parties and that exchange prompted this post.

It would be greatly appreciated if those involved in the dispute would post scans of their kit instructions so the rest of us can evaluate the questionable Chinese / English translation / instructions.

Danke !

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Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 9:22 PM

Manstein's revenge

You took a swipe by aiming this entire thread towards me in a an attempt to make it look like I'm making this whole "Dragon instructions generally suck" as something I just made up...just admit that you can't be objective about Dragon because of the obvious conflict of interest that exists and agree to disagree...OR we can keep going.  I'll be happy to provide more review quotes that call Dragon out on this issue.  But if you want to make it personal, I'm game for that as well...I can do this forever...keep 'em coming...travel safely. Wink

Manny

You're all about 'keeping it real' and calling a spade a spade, go I'm going to call BS on this post. Go back and read the first post on this thread. The 'swipe' that Tracy took at you had NOTHING to do with instructions. Instead, he was defending himself against your (apparently erroneous claim) that he is biased because he receives test market kits from Dragon before they are released to the general public,

He started this thread to refute THAT point. Now, you are conflating that issue with the instruction issue. He has also never said, or implied, that there is nothing wrong with Dragon instructions. In fact, when this whole conversation about instructions started he agreed that they are often the weakest part of a Dragon kit.

But I'm curious, Manny. What would you have Tracy do about the instructions? How influential do you think he is at Dragon? He already said (in the Independence thread) that he has little first hand knowledge or experience with the 'instructions department' of Dragon, yet you seem to be singling him out as if he is somehow the root of the problem.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 9:55 PM

Nope, this is how it started in the SHIPS Forum under the Independence thread:

"warshipbuilder:

Oh boy!

I hope you are really ready for some serious head-scratching!

As usual with Dragon kits,  the instructions are a little ambiguous - You're gonna need this real bad -

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212602668757747.58662.133782763306405"

As usual, Tracy popped in on cue to defend Dragon as he always does when someone is critical of their kits, as he recently did concerning the Scharnhorst (if I recall correctly you agreed that the bow looked "off" as well)...I have nothing against a guy defending a company they have a vested interest in---I'd do it myself.  But I stil gotta keep it real so it has devolved into Manny vs Tracy...And he didn't help his argument when many took his "hand-holding" comment as patronizing and a slap in the face to anyone who is critical of Dragon's kits.  He came off to me as sounding like a "real" model builder doesn't need good instructions and that we should all just man-up...just because it is a hobby doesn't mean it has to confusing...

I am not faulting him for Dragon's shortcomings or apparent lack of concern regarding the criticism their instructions garner from pratically every reviewer on the web.  In fact, he has also stated that Dragon doesn't care enough about their instructions.  What I--and others--are doing is pointing out that he can't be impartial on the topic because he has a vested interest in Dragon, a conflict of interest. He has inserted himself on Dragon's behalf in this debate so he can't play the victim in this...he chose to be the spokesperson for Dragon and I continued to challenge him in that role. 

I have nothing personal against Tracy or Dragon. I have more money sunk into that company than I care to think about.  As far as the kit issue, he has stated in the past in other threads that he---and others---receive "complimentary" kits for the work he does for them. 

What do I want him to do about Dragon's instructions?  Nothing.  It isn't his job.  They know the issues they have with them.  I believe Tracy is right:  they don't really care enough to do anything about them.  So what I will continue to do is speak up about how Dragon's instructions are sub-standard in the industry that they claim to lead in.  I didn't drag Tracy into this debate.  He inserted himself into it.  And if Tracy feels the need to come to their defense again, we can debate it all over again...
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Posted by The Navigator on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 10:25 PM

It would be a great disservice to everyone on this forum if this discussion became personal. Aaron would come in and lock everything up and nothing would be accomplished.

The best solution would be for Manny to post the instructions for us who haven't seen them. Reviews criticizing the directions could be further exhibits. Mr.White, or preferably a rep from Dragon could explain their side and defend the instructions. Then we could judge for ourselves and maybe begin to pressure Dragon to improve their instructions.

For the record, I have built models for over 30 yrs., none a ship kit by Dragon. However, I have built Tamiya kits entirely in Japanese with no problems, as well as the old Williams Brothers kits. I look forward to seeing these instructions for myself and their (hopeful) improvement.

Mike

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 10:33 PM

The Navigator

The best solution would be for Manny to post the instructions for us who haven't seen them. Reviews criticizing the directions could be further exhibits. Mr.Tracy, or preferably a rep from Dragon could explain their side and defend the instructions. Then we could judge for ourselves and maybe begin to pressure Dragon to improve their instructions.

No need for that...I don't have the time nor inclination to do it---besides, no one is arguing as to whether or not their instructions are bad, even Tracy concedes that point.  If you want more proof than Tracy's word for it, google Dragon kit reviews and read for yourself, or read about others' experience with them, as in the thread in SHIPS that started this discussion.

Or, read the three samples I quoted from three very well-respected modeling sites for kit reviews...

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  • From: Here
Posted by The Navigator on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 10:42 PM

Will do! Yes

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




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